Changing Characters

[Eggggggggggbert]

Hey guys, now before you spiral into something about sticking with one character and its importance, lemme explain my train of thought and how I've come to this decision.

I've been playing Smash since 2005. Only started taking it seriously a year ago. Now when I played the casually, I played Ness. I loved Earthbound and like many casual players, I defaulted my character choice to my favourite series character. This stayed more or less the same until I dipped my toe into competitive waters. I held back my tears and understood that there is no way to make Ness a viable main in a tournament atmosphere. I began my (first) quest to find a new character who was relevant and comfortable to begin focusing on. I eventually was drawn to Peach. She was a cute character, she was reasonably high on the tier list, not too overplayed and she her wavedash sucked so I had an excuse to not use it. My time with Peach opened my eyes to this scene entirely, she got me through a number of netplay games and college locals so there will always be a place in my heart for her. Unfortunately, no matter how happy someone is with their current situation, a question in the back of their head always floats around saying "What if?".

The tempting mistress of my smash career was a much more beautiful, much more alluring, suave, stylish character by the name of Captain Falcon. To the eye of any smash player, the marvels of Captain Falcon's grace and finesse are so enticing but I never thought that my fundamentals were strong enough. Peach felt easier; I could d-smash all day, pull stitches, and just float all day. I didn't feel the need to wavedash or short hop or L-Cancel because my character didn't "require" it. I was dedicated to this middling nature because of what I didn't think I could do. Although, eventually when my school work lessened and I had the time, my curiosity pulled ahead of my fear of learning and I began playing Falcon on the side. This spiraled into using Falcon full time because his play style felt so addicting and rewarding. I constantly thirsted for those crisp knees so much that SHFFLing, which is so ingrained into his play, felt easy and only served as means to a satisfying end. I realized I've learned something new from playing a new character, something I wouldn't have otherwise thought was neccessary.

Suddenly, I felt I had my fundamentals down from Peach and my aerial game tightened from Falcon. I asked myself what else could I learn, what habit could I force myself into? I still didn't know how to wavedash or how it works, how can we fix that? I decided to try Ice Climbers, they have a good wave dash. Even though they didn't feel as fun or as comfortable as Falcon, they were cute and I like Hammers so why not. I played Falcon constantly and kept my Ice Climbers as a side tool. They showed my that my fingers were in fact fast enough to wave dash and that once again, how silly it was to be scared to try. While I never full translate to ICs, they are a part of my play today as come into play here and there.

Now that I've given that unnecessarily detailed history, I'll address my current issue.
Falcon is actually becoming dull. There is a lot of talk about how Falcon is truly not top 6 character material and how a lot of his game relies on the fault of others (I remember Leffen saying that when you try to recover, all you do is press Up-B and pray, there is no skill). While I don't believe all of this hoopla, I still believe that Falcon may not be the best thing to pick up. His aerial-only approaches, while fancy, are somewhat impracticable in nature. I've reached this wall with Falcon (and really with Melee) that I need to overcome. Rather than spend the next half of a year losing, I want to look for a character who will rejuvenate my passion. Someone who will make me learn something new and has more orthodox approaches. Falcon is making me hate the game because passing this wall is incredibly frustrating on a day to day basis. I might come back to him to eventually, I just need something to focus on right now, need some ceilings to break. Besides, M2K said playing all characters is the best practice, right?

TLDR: Lookin for a new dude 2 play cuz bad

I'm looking for some character suggestions keeping the following information in mind

• Looking for a solid neutral and grounded approaches
• Looking for a character who is strongly dependant on spacing (I feel like this is maybe one of the best things I can sharpen at this point)
• I'm not afraid to play lower tier characters
• Maybe someone with stronger grabs

Thank you for your time.

 

[EPsilon933]

Peach. Trust me

Also, probably like everyone agrees that Falcon is the worst of the tournament viable 8. He's viable, but he has a lot to fight through

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Falco, super strong, super fun, and super stylish, need I say more?

 

[Plunder]

From what I've read you might be one of those people who will have this problem no matter what we suggest or what character you choose next.

You only get bored of a character when you either playing alone too much, they don't fit you perfectly, or when you play against the same boring easy predictable opponents.

If you continuously cycle through characters you will have fun learning and discovering how different each of their play-styles are, but you will never probably master anything. Every single character from mid-low tier on up has an infinite learning curve and room to master it's just up to you if you have the dedication and work ethic to stick with them.

In all honesty I don't understand these kinds of threads (they seem to pop up often). Picking a smash character is up to you, I wouldn't ask someone to pick me a wife or a house or a car. A smash character is just as personal and individual. I would suggest just trying all the characters out for yourself.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Falco, super strong, super fun, and super stylish, need I say more?

Don't you ever feel like there's an almost over saturation of space animals?

edit:
I should phrase this question different. ARE DITTOS FUN?

Peach. Trust me

Also, probably like everyone agrees that Falcon is the worst of the tournament viable 8. He's viable, but he has a lot to fight through

I always felt being a Peach was annoying to people. It seems like she supports a sort of playstyle that people don't seem to enjoy playing. This is mostly because people would always quit friendlies when I kept playing her. I really should give her another try.
Big fan by the way!!! I watch your videos all the time and have even gone through your S@X sets!

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

From what I've read you might be one of those people who will have this problem no matter what we suggest or what character you choose next.

You only get bored of a character when you either playing alone too much, they don't fit you perfectly, or when you play against the same boring easy predictable opponents.

If you continuously cycle through characters you will have fun learning and discovering how different each of their play-styles are, but you will never probably master anything. Every single character from mid-low tier on up has an infinite learning curve and room to master it's just up to you is you have the dedication and work ethic to stick with them.

In all honesty I don't understand these kinds of threads (they seem to pop up often). Picking a smash character is up to you, I wouldn't ask someone to pick me a wife or a house or a car. A smash character is just as personal and individual. I would suggest just trying all the characters out for yourself.

In this stage of my competitive smash career (might be an overstatement, I'm in my infancy) , I'm just using characters as tools to improve certain aspects of my play as each character seems to focus on it more. I will select a character, but I think that whole "select a permanent character" maybe should come later. I especially don't think Falcon is a character I should develop wholeheartedly when I'm not good enough to make up for his short comings.
I made this thread to identify which character to play (for the sake of argument, at least the next 6 months or year) to facilitate improvement in a certain field.

 

[Plunder]

In this stage of my competitive smash career (might be an overstatement, I'm in my infancy) , I'm just using characters as tools to improve certain aspects of my play as each character seems to focus on it more. I will select a character, but I think that whole "select a permanent character" maybe should come later. I especially don't think Falcon is a character I should develop wholeheartedly when I'm not good enough to make up for his short comings.
I made this thread to identify which character to play (for the sake of argument, at least the next 6 months or year) to facilitate improvement in a certain field.

Ah ok, I'm with you there.

Learning a bit of each character definitely can't hurt since it can help you learn the MUs, plus it's true that each character forces you to use wildly varying degrees of tech skill (such as - wave dashing, DDing, jab resets, jump timing, SHFFL timing, Auto Cancels, IASA, SAFs, Ledge ATs, etc). And learning most characters can help with your overall understanding of shared tech, but dedicating too much time or constantly rotating through them can have a negative effect on your competence and mastery with any given one. Not only that but for me when I try that it messes with my muscle memory and reactions.

 

[EPsilon933]

Don't you ever feel like there's an almost over saturation of space animals?

edit:
I should phrase this question different. ARE DITTOS FUN?

Only Falcon ditto are fun ^.^

Bit seriously, Melee players quite commonly complain about dittos. I think they're pretty fun. Fun is subjective

Space animals are pretty fun to play against. I don't see any harm in this

I always felt being a Peach was annoying to people. It seems like she supports a sort of playstyle that people don't seem to enjoy playing. This is mostly because people would always quit friendlies when I kept playing her. I really should give her another try.

Her tools break rules, which makes her difficult to play against. She can't get comboed well due to her floatiness and nair, so comboers have to be careful when trying to combo her. Turnips and floats give her unfair spacing tools that are difficult to challenge. I find playing as and against Peach to be pretty fun

Also, might have suggested Peach out of main bias. Marth would be a good choice too

Also,

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Ah ok, I'm with you there.

Learning a bit of each character definitely can't hurt since it can help you learn the MUs, plus it's true that each character forces you to use wildly varying degrees of tech skill (such as - wave dashing, DDing, jab resets, jump timing, SHFFL timing, Auto Cancels, IASA, SAFs, Ledge ATs, etc). And learning most characters can help with your overall understanding of shared tech, but dedicating too much time or constantly rotating through them can have a negative effect on your competence and mastery with any given one. Not only that but for me when I try that it messes with my muscle memory and reactions.

That is a downfall. Then again, I don't imagine I'd do this many more times. Switching off Falcon is a priority right now for me just to alleviate that frustration of his (and my) short comings as I've explained. Whenever I've reached a point with another character, whoever it'll be, means I'll have an arsenal of 3 relevant characters that I've somewhat developed. While the other 2 will be unpracticed (and ICs may sit always at the sidelines), they'll still be reasonable choices now. The most important thing to achieve is an state of comfort with the game and all of its mechanics that I can fully enjoy a character without that feeling of being short changed.
Then I'll never feel frustrated, only ocassionally angry at the game I guess, which is loads better.

Only Falcon ditto are fun ^.^

Bit seriously, Melee players quite commonly complain about dittos. I think they're pretty fun. Fun is subjective

Space animals are pretty fun to play against. I don't see any harm in this



Her tools break rules, which makes her difficult to play against. She can't get comboed well due to her floatiness and nair, so comboers have to be careful when trying to combo her. Turnips and floats give her unfair spacing tools that are difficult to challenge. I find playing as and against Peach to be pretty fun

Also, might have suggested Peach out of main bias. Marth would be a good choice too

Also,

Peach also has the drawback of having to maybe identify a side character to play against Puff. Playing Peach is honestly a lovely experience, I just feel bad when people don't enjoy playing against me. I probably should not let that factor in but it's an unavoidable truth.

 

[EPsilon933]

Peach also has the drawback of having to maybe identify a side character to play against Puff. Playing Peach is honestly a lovely experience, I just feel bad when people don't enjoy playing against me. I probably should not let that factor in but it's an unavoidable truth.

I've heard that Peach mains think it's Puff's slight advantage and that Puffs think it's Peach's slight advantage. Imo, it's even. Whoever approaches in that match up loses, basically

If your friends don't learn how to fight against your Peach, wish them luck when they encounter someone else's Peach in tournament

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Don't you ever feel like there's an almost over saturation of space animals?

edit:
I should phrase this question different. ARE DITTOS FUN?

Never enough Star Fox characters. Personally, I loooooooove the ditto.

 

[Snorlaxes]

Switching off Falcon is a priority right now for me just to alleviate that frustration of his (and my) short comings as I've explained... The most important thing to achieve is an state of comfort with the game and all of its mechanics that I can fully enjoy a character without that feeling of being short changed.

I think from this whole thread, the part I quoted best expresses what you want advice on. Let me know if that's a bad assumption.

I think that during the process of developing a character, you'll inevitably become more aware of their weaknesses and limitations. This sort of brings out a "grass is always greener on the other side" mentality toward other characters that I think is best ignored. Even at top level, Ken seems to think Marth has losing match-ups to most of the top-tier, M2K thinks Falco's the best character (coincidentally the only top-tier he doesn't play), Armada thinks Peach is unviable in the current meta, Mango and Hbox think Puff is overrated.

Also, you want "a state of comfort with the game and all of its mechanics," but what mechanics are you talking about? What is it about Falcon that you can't learn these mechanics with him? You keep mentioning that playing other characters helps you learn something new, but the way you've written it, it sounds like they simply make you more open to experimentation.

You're always going to feel like you're hitting plateaus and that your development is stifled, but Melee is an insanely deep game and there's always stuff to improve upon. No character will free you of this feeling. If anything, the right mindset toward study and practice will alleviate it the most.

In regards to what you've said about Peach: if your opponents are so frustrated that they quit out of friendlies against you, that's their problem, not yours. Are you playing the game to make your opponent happy? I strongly doubt it. You're always going to have match-ups and characters that you don't like playing, but the only solution to this is learning them, unless you plan on forfeiting against every Puff you encounter.

TL;DR: I think you have more of a mindset problem than a character problem. Melee's not an easy game and there's no simple, quick solution to improving at it rapidly. Pick the character that you're most motivated to practice and learn to accept that they'll have their flaws, but it's your job to overcome them.

 

[Kimble]

I'm looking for some character suggestions keeping the following information in mind

• Looking for a solid neutral and grounded approaches
• Looking for a character who is strongly dependant on spacing (I feel like this is maybe one of the best things I can sharpen at this point)
• I'm not afraid to play lower tier characters
• Maybe someone with stronger grabs

Thats marth.

Arguably has the best neutral in the game
Ground approaches: DD grab, WD d-tilt
Super duper dependent on spacing because of the tipper mechanic and the need to out space/zone your opponent
Marth's grabs themselves don't deal a lot of damage, but the combo setups can be devastating.

Marth seems to perfectly fit your criteria.

 

[pagedMov]

JUST PLAY FOX HES THE BEST CHARACTER

 

[Gilbz]

Falcon all the way! Falcon is definitely a tournament viable character, he's just harder to be good at. Mango has an amazing Falcon and can beat Hax with it. Wizzrobe is fricken amazing and is continuing to climb up the ranks.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Falcon all the way! Falcon is definitely a tournament viable character, he's just harder to be good at. Mango has an amazing Falcon and can beat Hax with it. Wizzrobe is fricken amazing and is continuing to climb up the ranks.

Falcon is sort of a weird character. I think what people get about him now is that he's both the best and the worst character in the top 8. His ability to win tournaments is going to slowly decrease as people get more proficient and make less mistakes (see 20XX). He relies on people's screw ups to begin combos and relies on screw ups to recover properly too. He's a good character but so much of his play is shifted to a specific spectrum of possibilities. He requires aerial approaches all the time, no matter what pretty much. While that is cool to look at, every other good character in the game has ground approaches and aren't usually that limited, they have an abundance of other options.
I also don't think that Mango beating Hax says much for Falcon in general. Wizzrobe is making some ground but he's still not hittin top 8 at the bigger tourneys.

Thats marth.

Arguably has the best neutral in the game
Ground approaches: DD grab, WD d-tilt
Super duper dependent on spacing because of the tipper mechanic and the need to out space/zone your opponent
Marth's grabs themselves don't deal a lot of damage, but the combo setups can be devastating.

Marth seems to perfectly fit your criteria.

I'm probably going to spend a few days fiddling with him to see if he feels comfortable enough. You've got a point.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I think from this whole thread, the part I quoted best expresses what you want advice on. Let me know if that's a bad assumption.

I think that during the process of developing a character, you'll inevitably become more aware of their weaknesses and limitations. This sort of brings out a "grass is always greener on the other side" mentality toward other characters that I think is best ignored. Even at top level, Ken seems to think Marth has losing match-ups to most of the top-tier, M2K thinks Falco's the best character (coincidentally the only top-tier he doesn't play), Armada thinks Peach is unviable in the current meta, Mango and Hbox think Puff is overrated.

Also, you want "a state of comfort with the game and all of its mechanics," but what mechanics are you talking about? What is it about Falcon that you can't learn these mechanics with him? You keep mentioning that playing other characters helps you learn something new, but the way you've written it, it sounds like they simply make you more open to experimentation.

You're always going to feel like you're hitting plateaus and that your development is stifled, but Melee is an insanely deep game and there's always stuff to improve upon. No character will free you of this feeling. If anything, the right mindset toward study and practice will alleviate it the most.

In regards to what you've said about Peach: if your opponents are so frustrated that they quit out of friendlies against you, that's their problem, not yours. Are you playing the game to make your opponent happy? I strongly doubt it. You're always going to have match-ups and characters that you don't like playing, but the only solution to this is learning them, unless you plan on forfeiting against every Puff you encounter.

TL;DR: I think you have more of a mindset problem than a character problem. Melee's not an easy game and there's no simple, quick solution to improving at it rapidly. Pick the character that you're most motivated to practice and learn to accept that they'll have their flaws, but it's your job to overcome them.

The reason I initiated this point of change is because I've realized that playing in my current state, with my knowledge and my character selection, it is so frustrating that I'm not longer enjoying the hobby that I've dedicated so much time to. That's the point of a hobby, to come home from work and forget about other **** for a bit and have fun. The grass is always greener on the other side mentality is something that everyone has but it doesn't make me feel any better knowing that when my grass feels like hot pavement burning my feet all the time. Abstract analogy aside, I don't necessarily enjoy switching characters and losing progress but charging through my current situation without trying to initiate any change won't get any good results either.

 

[Gilbz]

Falcon is sort of a weird character. I think what people get about him now is that he's both the best and the worst character in the top 8. His ability to win tournaments is going to slowly decrease as people get more proficient and make less mistakes (see 20XX). He relies on people's screw ups to begin combos and relies on screw ups to recover properly too. He's a good character but so much of his play is shifted to a specific spectrum of possibilities. He requires aerial approaches all the time, no matter what pretty much. While that is cool to look at, every other good character in the game has ground approaches and aren't usually that limited, they have an abundance of other options.
I also don't think that Mango beating Hax says much for Falcon in general. Wizzrobe is making some ground but he's still not hittin top 8 at the bigger tourneys.


I'm probably going to spend a few days fiddling with him to see if he feels comfortable enough. You've got a point.

This is one of the best responses I think I've gotten so far on this forum. Very intelligent response. Yeah I'd have to agree with you on most of your points, but I don't think that there will be a day when no one messes up. I highly doubt that 20xx will ever come into existence. As we have seen with Hax, people are going to get hand problems before they are able to completely master all tech skill. Even if people don't get hand problems or some other type of joint/muscle issue I still think that it is almost impossible for someone to never mess up. It's bound to happen.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

This is one of the best responses I think I've gotten so far on this forum. Very intelligent response. Yeah I'd have to agree with you on most of your points, but I don't think that there will be a day when no one messes up. I highly doubt that 20xx will ever come into existence. As we have seen with Hax, people are going to get hand problems before they are able to completely master all tech skill. Even if people don't get hand problems or some other type of joint/muscle issue I still think that it is almost impossible for someone to never mess up. It's bound to happen.

I don't think 20XX is a real thing either, I more use it as conceptual term to show a steady incline in the meta-realization for newer players. People of all ability are becoming more and more informed on punishes, option control and safer play earlier and earlier in their career. While 20GX (which is areal movement of Falcons solidifying his combo game) is making a lot of grounds, their combos still always require an opening to begin and with players becoming smarter from an earlier stage, starting Falcons are going to be angry and switch from an earlier point.

Falcon is to the rest of the top 8 as Shiek used to be to Fox. For a while, Shiek was the top character in tiers because she was borderline broken at what she could do. People couldn't punish or combo as well in those days, so Shiek could get away with strong fairs and her stupidly long recovery and never be challenged. Shiek does a handful of things and she does them very very well. Fox on the other hand may not be that strong at those specific things, but he is the best at all things considered (the jack of all trade of ALL TRADES). Its sort of an argument of quantity over quality. Now I'm not saying Shiek still isn't good, it just boils down to any given situation Fox has more options. Falcon sort of is a metaphorical Shiek, he has his incredible combo game (quality) but very very few things to initial that besides a lucky stomp or knee (lack of quantity). If you get a falcon in a bad spot, he literally has no wings to recover (totally clever pun).

I'm definitely ranting and throwing a bunch of garbage off the top of my head now. I just want to ensure my point is made. I do love Falcon no doubt about it, I just know he has a specific spot in this game and unfortunately its not at the top of the tier list.

 

[Gilbz]

I don't think 20XX is a real thing either, I more use it as conceptual term to show a steady incline in the meta-realization for newer players. People of all ability are becoming more and more informed on punishes, option control and safer play earlier and earlier in their career. While 20GX (which is areal movement of Falcons solidifying his combo game) is making a lot of grounds, their combos still always require an opening to begin and with players becoming smarter from an earlier stage, starting Falcons are going to be angry and switch from an earlier point.

Falcon is to the rest of the top 8 as Shiek used to be to Fox. For a while, Shiek was the top character in tiers because she was borderline broken at what she could do. People couldn't punish or combo as well in those days, so Shiek could get away with strong fairs and her stupidly long recovery and never be challenged. Shiek does a handful of things and she does them very very well. Fox on the other hand may not be that strong at those specific things, but he is the best at all things considered (the jack of all trade of ALL TRADES). Its sort of an argument of quantity over quality. Now I'm not saying Shiek still isn't good, it just boils down to any given situation Fox has more options. Falcon sort of is a metaphorical Shiek, he has his incredible combo game (quality) but very very few things to initial that besides a lucky stomp or knee (lack of quantity). If you get a falcon in a bad spot, he literally has no wings to recover (totally clever pun).

I'm definitely ranting and throwing a bunch of garbage off the top of my head now. I just want to ensure my point is made. I do love Falcon no doubt about it, I just know he has a specific spot in this game and unfortunately its not at the top of the tier list.

Falcon can start a combo with grabs too. It could be argued that every combo is started by the opponents mistake because wouldn't letting yourself get grabbed be considered a mistake? I agree that a lot of Falcon's strengths rely on the punish game but it's not like he can't start anything himself. I think that he still should be on the top tier list in the spot that he is in now.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Falcon can start a combo with grabs too. It could be argued that every combo is started by the opponents mistake because wouldn't letting yourself get grabbed be considered a mistake? I agree that a lot of Falcon's strengths rely on the punish game but it's not like he can't start anything himself. I think that he still should be on the top tier list in the spot that he is in now.

Well, Grabs are a thing but he does have one of the worst grab ranges.

 

[Plunder]

Well, Grabs are a thing but he does have one of the worst grab ranges.

Don't quite understand this point.....his JC grab is pretty amazing, combine that also with his excellent dash dance and speed.

He also has a combo set up and KO set up for pretty much every character in the game at wide percentage ranges, probably one of the most well rounded grab games in Melee.

 

[Gilbz]

Don't quite understand this point.....his JC grab is pretty amazing, combine that also with his excellent dash dance and speed.

He also has a combo set up and KO set up for pretty much every character in the game at wide percentage ranges, probably one of the most well rounded grab games in Melee.

I agree. His grab range is tiny but his speed and JC Grab makes up for it. The tech chase grabs make him a reliable character against spacies and other top tiers too.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Don't quite understand this point.....his JC grab is pretty amazing, combine that also with his excellent dash dance and speed.

He also has a combo set up and KO set up for pretty much every character in the game at wide percentage ranges, probably one of the most well rounded grab games in Melee.

I was probably not as eloquent as I should have been. A number of the other top characters have great options out of grab too along with a much better grab range. Hell, a number of Marth and Shiek players make a career out of it. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been 0-Death'd by grab-techchasin' and jab-reset-to-grabin' Shieks (more times than I care to admit). Captain's game doesn't necessarily draw me to him more than it draws me to any of the 8, his ability is almost offset.