CCing and why you should always do it (Vs peach too)

[C-SAF]

A conversation I had recently inspired this post, because I find it very irritating to hear people talk about when to CC or not cc. To give an example, here are two questions that should basically never be asked:


- Can I crouch cancel X move?

- Should I crouch cancel vs X character?


The answer to both is that you should always be ccing. Even moves that cannot be cc'd are not bad too cc. Falco has a one frame move (shine) which can capitalize on even the smallest of openings that cc can give you.


What is even more frustrating, is when i hear people talk about ccing like it is a mixup.

For example,

"If you stomp enough with falcon, it will keep them from ccing and you can use nair more",

or

"Drilling with fox will keep falco from ccing your moves since it is uncc'able".


Both of these should be untrue, but unfortunately, far too many people buy into them. There is no downside to ccing a stomp or a knee by falcon. U should not have been hit by it, but ccing it will do no harm and in the case of knee it will make it easier to tech at higher percents (since it is infact ccable at low percents).


The second example of ccing fox's drill is actually imperative to the matchup. Whenever fox jumps at you, it is not a mixup between nair and drill, it is just unsafe to do both at low percents. U should always be ccing for the nair, and smash DIing if u get drilled.

How do u smash DI fox's drill u may ask? If u are already ccing for the nair, simply quarter circle in the opposite way fox drills if he overshoots, or away from him if he undershoots. There is some nuance to this, and for the most part it takes a while to really recognize when you can get a punish with it. But with the amount of subpar fox mains out there shffling mindless aerials, u should be able to get lots of practice. There is a reason top fox's respect Westballz so much when he is just standing there uptilting. They know he will punish any unsafe aerial.


The elephant in the room is always peach though. She is the character everyone puts an asterisk next to when talking about cc. The truth is u need to cc here moves as much as any other character in the game. The notion that you should not be ccing in the peach matchup is very low level thinking.


It is true that downsmash will destroy you for ccing it. For the most part, even letting go of the control stick after ccing the first hit will lead to huge damage. The trick to avoiding this is to not just let go, but to press up when u see the downsmash start. Again, there is some nuance to this, sometimes u will pop out only to be hit by the other side of the downsmash (in which case u needed to also DI out after hitting up, or jump out) but much like fox, it is necessary to practice and can even net a punish if u land in the right spot after getting out.

With the amount of dsmash spamming peaches out there, there is no excuse to not experiment with this. U should never be knocked over at 0 for not ccing a dash attack b/c u were worried about dsmash.


To many people this post will have been useless, but to many others I hope it was helpful. In the future, if u think "I wonder if I can cc that?" the answer should be "I should have tried to".

TL;DR:

There is no reason not to cc even unccable moves. Shine is one frame and can punish even the smallest opening ccing gives you. Using unccable moves to keep your opponent from ccing should never work. Even vs peach it is important to do so, except that you must also be aware to DI up and out of dsmash when she tries to punish you for it.

 

[Shahndo]

U should always be ccing for the nair, and smash DIing if u get drilled.

This is a fantastic way of thinking about countering Fox's approach.

 

[C-SAF]

This is a fantastic way of thinking about countering Fox's approach.

I should add the same thinking applies when fighting falco, except early falco dair can be cc'd at low percents and it is more difficult to sdi the dair since it is not a multi hit move. Falco can still get followups aswell, its just better to sdi to avoid the shine.

None of these are new ideas on my part btw, I just don't see them talked about much.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Even better than CCing though, is not getting hit at all, though I understand it's not always avoidable and this is innately easier.

 

[C-SAF]

Even better than CCing though, is not getting hit at all, though I understand it's not always avoidable and this is innately easier.

Its not either or though, u should be avoiding getting hit AND ccing at all times. That's the real point im trying to make. Ccing things that are unsafe on hit should be automatic, and there is no downside to doing it.

Its the same as punishing something unsafe on shield. I wouldn't be saying shielding is something good to do just so u can get a punish. U should avoid having to shield, but also punish anything unsafe on it when u are in shield.

I get what u are trying to say, but understand im not offering an "easy" strategy, this is just a strictly better way to play the game.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Sure, I understand, like WD back, but continue holding down. If they miss, you're golden, if they hit with something "anti-CC," Amsah tech or DI out (depending on knockback/how it's supposed to be "anti-CC"). If they hit with something that isn't "anti-CC," you get a CC punish.

Unless you respond inappropriately after getting hit CCing, there was no downside to CCing the hit (or a very small one outweighed by the greater potential to land a punish).

I just want to make it clear for everyone it's better not to get hit if a hit is avoidable than to let oneself get hit.

 

[Barry BlaZe]

One can technically hold c stick down before the match starts at the Ready go screen. Once you're released from the platform u keep cstick down held and u an dash dance around and if u get hit u can as di down and counter! Like in theory u dash dancing with c stick held down is always better????? Cause u always get the ASDI down thats op as ****

 

[LeadRod]

Would a better question than the ones proposed be "at what percent does my opponent's moveset not allow for CC?"
For instance, you would stop CCing at an earlier % against Ganon than Falcon because his moves allow for knockdown at greater percents? Or is there some aspect I am misunderstanding/don't know so that you would still want to CC then?

 

[Audos]

You shouldn't be CC'ing all the time, like LeadRod said there are times that the CC is more hurtful with the opponents options than helpful. People follow very black and white "this is when to CC and when not to", which is bad, but saying it is always useful is also bad. You can't react to everything, and one bad reaction you relied on CC to cover could land you off stage with bad DI or worse, sleeping in the blastzone.

Not saying a majority of your points weren't correct, because they were. Just saying that CC is an option with a lot of strengths and some small, but exploitable, weaknesses. Discussion about when to and not to CC is still perfectly reasonable.

 

[C-SAF]

You shouldn't be CC'ing all the time, like LeadRod said there are times that the CC is more hurtful with the opponents options than helpful. People follow very black and white "this is when to CC and when not to", which is bad, but saying it is always useful is also bad. You can't react to everything, and one bad reaction you relied on CC to cover could land you off stage with bad DI or worse, sleeping in the blastzone.

Not saying a majority of your points weren't correct, because they were. Just saying that CC is an option with a lot of strengths and some small, but exploitable, weaknesses. Discussion about when to and not to CC is still perfectly reasonable.

There really aren't any exploitable weaknesses to ccing. Holding down and teching is the appropriate action if you are sent horizontally by a strong move at high percent, and at low percent u will slide off the edge and be actionable immediately. This is commonly where you see westballz instantly side b.

I don't see how ganon stomp is made any worse by ccing it either, asdi wont prevent u from being popped up and im not sure how u would be stomped at 0 while true ccing.

 

[Audos]

There really aren't any exploitable weaknesses to ccing. Holding down and teching is the appropriate action if you are sent horizontally by a strong move at high percent, and at low percent u will slide off the edge and be actionable immediately. This is commonly where you see westballz instantly side b.

I don't see how ganon stomp is made any worse by ccing it either, asdi wont prevent u from being popped up and im not sure how u would be stomped at 0 while true ccing.

And here's where the meaty problem of theory crafting comes in: too much of it is unrealistic when put in practice. Sure, the correct thing to do is just tech, but you can't always do that, and when you don't the potential to be in a worse position is large. For every other time I've seen westballz to an instant side-b off of a bad CC there is a time I've seen him go too far and not make it back at all with phantasm. Not to mention how playing in a corner from ledge is just bad in general. On top of that trying to implement CC as a macro-game strategy will result in you playing neutral in a more predictable way. The more value you put on it the more it will hinder your movement and the more you will form habits around it. In a perfect world it isn't a problem, but for real people with limited reflexes and mistakes the best way to use CC is still to pick moments that you do react to or read ahead of time. Players like westballz are great at CC because they have played neutral so long and know what to react to or what to expect from the opponents, which allows them to make educated decisions on what to and what not to cover with CC. That isn't true for mid-level players and the solution isn't CC everything all the time.

 

[C-SAF]

And here's where the meaty problem of theory crafting comes in: too much of it is unrealistic when put in practice. Sure, the correct thing to do is just tech, but you can't always do that, and when you don't the potential to be in a worse position is large. For every other time I've seen westballz to an instant side-b off of a bad CC there is a time I've seen him go too far and not make it back at all with phantasm. Not to mention how playing in a corner from ledge is just bad in general. On top of that trying to implement CC as a macro-game strategy will result in you playing neutral in a more predictable way. The more value you put on it the more it will hinder your movement and the more you will form habits around it. In a perfect world it isn't a problem, but for real people with limited reflexes and mistakes the best way to use CC is still to pick moments that you do react to or read ahead of time. Players like westballz are great at CC because they have played neutral so long and know what to react to or what to expect from the opponents, which allows them to make educated decisions on what to and what not to cover with CC. That isn't true for mid-level players and the solution isn't CC everything all the time.

omg kill the rainbow, i actually had to cut and paste it into notepad to follow the sentences

The first thing i have to say is that it isnt theory crafting, this is something that all top players implement all the time, and most low level players completely neglect.


The second thing is that it is possible to DI down and tech strong horizontal hits everytime, its something that comes naturally when u practice ccing a lot. Even when u miss the tech however, down and in is the strongest survival DI for when u are on the stage. DIing down only gets u killed when u are in the air, otherwise the stage kills your momentum.


Im not really sure what u mean by fighting from the corner, since the alternative would have been to just die from the strong hit and not make it back.


And to your last point that it effects the way u play, I will say yes it does but not in a negative way. U are also making the argument that for some reason im "advocating getting hit" because im saying to cc all the time. Of course u should always avoid getting hit at all times, but then there is no downside to ccing when u do. Why would u not make certain moves unsafe on hit if its possible to do so?


Players like westballz are great at ccing and acting out of cc b/c they have implemented it for years wherever they can. Mid level players suck at it b/c they take your mindset and are afraid that if they cc a move they might not act appropriately afterwards. Its why they still get pushed around by shiek tilts and peach dash attacks at low percents and waste their time learning to respect options that are just not safe. What will actually hinder neutral is not basing your game around ccing, since it effectively decides what is safe and what isnt at every percent of the game.

 

[Audos]

omg kill the rainbow, i actually had to cut and paste it into notepad to follow the sentences

The first thing i have to say is that it isnt theory crafting, this is something that all top players implement all the time, and most low level players completely neglect.


The second thing is that it is possible to DI down and tech strong horizontal hits everytime, its something that comes naturally when u practice ccing a lot. Even when u miss the tech however, down and in is the strongest survival DI for when u are on the stage. DIing down only gets u killed when u are in the air, otherwise the stage kills your momentum.


Im not really sure what u mean by fighting from the corner, since the alternative would have been to just die from the strong hit and not make it back.


And to your last point that it effects the way u play, I will say yes it does but not in a negative way. U are also making the argument that for some reason im "advocating getting hit" because im saying to cc all the time. Of course u should always avoid getting hit at all times, but then there is no downside to ccing when u do. Why would u not make certain moves unsafe on hit if its possible to do so?


Players like westballz are great at ccing and acting out of cc b/c they have implemented it for years wherever they can. Mid level players suck at it b/c they take your mindset and are afraid that if they cc a move they might not act appropriately afterwards. Its why they still get pushed around by shiek tilts and peach dash attacks at low percents and waste their time learning to respect options that are just not safe. What will actually hinder neutral is not basing your game around ccing, since it effectively decides what is safe and what isnt at every percent of the game.

I disagree with a lot of your points. I don't think top players CC all the time, this seems clearly visible when watching VODs. The same is true about whether they can tech or not. The stage does kill a lot of momentum but it isn't automatically advantageous when the momentum is directed so low the moment you slide off stage. Often times you are forced to kill your double jump just to survive because even if your momentum is less than a regular hit, you have significantly less time, or room, to slow yourself to avoid death. Edgeguarding is about covering options, and on the chance that you slide off you have significantly less options than if you DI'd up. And on that point, CC is not optimal survival DI in any way. There are plenty of times when the arc you are sent is just bad. Overall DI up tend's to be safer when they have the potential to hit with a kill move, because you can drift back with all your options in tact, including the double jump most of the time.

As for it deciding what is safe and what isn't, yes, CC does that. But it isn't just limitless. You can't CC when you are in motion a huge majority of the time and things like sheik and peaches dash attack primarily capitalize on moments where they don't think they will be CC'd.

Also my rainbows are fabulous. Ur jus jelly.

 

[C-SAF]

I disagree with a lot of your points. I don't think top players CC all the time, this seems clearly visible when watching VODs. The same is true about whether they can tech or not. The stage does kill a lot of momentum but it isn't automatically advantageous when the momentum is directed so low the moment you slide off stage. Often times you are forced to kill your double jump just to survive because even if your momentum is less than a regular hit, you have significantly less time, or room, to slow yourself to avoid death. Edgeguarding is about covering options, and on the chance that you slide off you have significantly less options than if you DI'd up. And on that point, CC is not optimal survival DI in any way. There are plenty of times when the arc you are sent is just bad. Overall DI up tend's to be safer when they have the potential to hit with a kill move, because you can drift back with all your options in tact, including the double jump most of the time.

As for it deciding what is safe and what isn't, yes, CC does that. But it isn't just limitless. You can't CC when you are in motion a huge majority of the time and things like sheik and peaches dash attack primarily capitalize on moments where they don't think they will be CC'd.

Also my rainbows are fabulous. Ur jus jelly.

lol the rainbow is cool, b/c the colours go diagonally though my eye keeps getting drawn to the line below it. I have to fight not to read diagonally. It is cool though.


Ill explain this one more time b/c u seem to still be ignoring it:

Asdi down allows you to do everything normal. You can cc while in motion, and if u cant b/c u are out of cc percent im not saying just sit there and try to true cc.

U will just go farther if u dont cc. At below 40% im not sure why u would want to be knocked offstage if u can avoid it. At higher percents asdi and tech is the best thing to do to avoid being sent offstage. In both cases, there is no edgeguard situation. If u are on the ground u can actually make it extremely difficult to get knocked offstage at all percents if u asdi down. The only time hitting down is bad is when u are in the air already.


Top players do implement cc all the time, the reason u dont see it in high level matches is b/c the player on offense is good enough to play around cc. They do it so naturally that u barely see them get counter attacked, and they respect the percents at which they cannot use unsafe moves. I would take the time to watch how big of a role ccing plays in a match where a high level player is against a lower level one, or even a relatively high level player that is below their level. CC plays a far bigger role than u realize.


This isnt really something thats up for debate, but something im trying to share. Its had massive dividends in my own play and really should talked about more as a core skill in the game. Its as imperative as your bread and butter combos, or basic movement. Its as important to practice as that stuff.

 

[Audos]

lol the rainbow is cool, b/c the colours go diagonally though my eye keeps getting drawn to the line below it. I have to fight not to read diagonally. It is cool though.


Ill explain this one more time b/c u seem to still be ignoring it:

Asdi down allows you to do everything normal. You can cc while in motion, and if u cant b/c u are out of cc percent im not saying just sit there and try to true cc.

U will just go farther if u dont cc. At below 40% im not sure why u would want to be knocked offstage if u can avoid it. At higher percents asdi and tech is the best thing to do to avoid being sent offstage. In both cases, there is no edgeguard situation. If u are on the ground u can actually make it extremely difficult to get knocked offstage at all percents if u asdi down. The only time hitting down is bad is when u are in the air already.


Top players do implement cc all the time, the reason u dont see it in high level matches is b/c the player on offense is good enough to play around cc. They do it so naturally that u barely see them get counter attacked, and they respect the percents at which they cannot use unsafe moves. I would take the time to watch how big of a role ccing plays in a match where a high level player is against a lower level one, or even a relatively high level player that is below their level. CC plays a far bigger role than u realize.


This isnt really something thats up for debate, but something im trying to share. Its had massive dividends in my own play and really should talked about more as a core skill in the game. Its as imperative as your bread and butter combos, or basic movement. Its as important to practice as that stuff.

I enjoyed the posts overall, you have a good argument in your favor. If you use ASDI instead of your left analog there are some merits to the concept of almost always CC'ing as long as you are also good at survival DI. But I still hold that there are exceptions on the principle that you cannot avoid unreactable neutral exchanges that force knockdown. This is especially bad if you rely on it way too much, since a good player can react to the situation instead of just reading. But even if they can't reading alone could net them a better punish. In the same way that you say CC decides what is and isn't safe in neutral, I think unreactable plays that invade your space and force decisions from you decide when CC is safe or not.

I really enjoy the way the meta may progress to see what options are more optimal in neutral, like if fox's down tilt for example is better when CC'd because he can follow up on it better at certain percents he catches an ASDI'd dash away where normally they would get full away DI. Just an interesting thought.

 

[CP Adagio]

I enjoyed the posts overall, you have a good argument in your favor. If you use ASDI instead of your left analog there are some merits to the concept of almost always CC'ing as long as you are also good at survival DI. But I still hold that there are exceptions on the principle that you cannot avoid unreactable neutral exchanges that force knockdown. This is especially bad if you rely on it way too much, since a good player can react to the situation instead of just reading. But even if they can't reading alone could net them a better punish. In the same way that you say CC decides what is and isn't safe in neutral, I think unreactable plays that invade your space and force decisions from you decide when CC is safe or not.

I really enjoy the way the meta may progress to see what options are more optimal in neutral, like if fox's down tilt for example is better when CC'd because he can follow up on it better at certain percents he catches an ASDI'd dash away where normally they would get full away DI. Just an interesting thought.

I'm not picking a side here, but cmon dude get rid of the rainbow it hurts my eyes and makes it impossible to take anything you say as actual information