Catch'em with a Nerf-ball

[drsusredfish]

So lets say Mewtwo is hypothetically over powered. What would be the best way to nerf him without making him loose the "sparkly newness" that his trailer shows?

 

[drsusredfish]

one of the possible issues with mewtwo is he is unapproachable in the air since he can teleport and then attack right away. Since I don't know P:M mewtwo frame data I'll assume it has a 7 frame startup and like 10 frames of intangibility after that like in melee. keep the start up 7 but have 7 frames of intangibility. basically for 3 frames after he has disappeared he can still be hit. this will make it so he has to teleport sooner to evade aerial attacks. Since he has to teleport sooner the opponent has a better chance at baiting the teleport.

reference http://www.smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-hitboxes-and-frame-data.302477/

 

[Kally Wally]

The character isn't even out yet, cool your jets. Half of the stuff in the trailer was TAS, of course he looks OP.

 

[drsusredfish]

"So lets say Mewtwo is hypothetically over powered." I'm not saying he has to be nerfed. I'm saying when we get good looking things they get toned down a little over development. Nerf is probably too strong a word for what i'm talking about but "tweak-ball" isn't as good a title. I think sonic, ike, and zelda know what "tweaks" feel and look like.

 

[drsusredfish]

The character isn't even out yet, cool your jets. Half of the stuff in the trailer was TAS, of course he looks OP.

This is what i'm looking at to see what he can actually do.

http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/470535654

By "sparlky newness" i was talking about his new mechanics shown in the video not the obvious TAS combos. did you even read what i wrote or you assumed i'm just irrationally saying what i'm saying <_<

 

[ItalianStallion]

one of the possible issues with mewtwo is he is unapproachable in the air since he can teleport and then attack right away.

Mewtwo is definitely approachable in the air. Being able to attack out of teleport is good, but it's not going to save him in the way you're guessing it might. The frame data stats for teleport are the same as Melee I believe (Remembered PMBR saying that somewhere), and if that's the case, Mewtwo's teleport won't be the super safe option people are guessing it to be.

From what I've seen, Mewtwo does not looks over-powered in the slightest. It's even hard to hypothetically imagine him being over-powered from the footage we've seen. It honestly would be easier to come up with ways 2.6 Sonic or Ike is hypothetically over-powered rather than PM Mewtwo. Maybe it's because I'm a Mewtwo main from Melee and I know the limitations the character has.

But to participate in the thread, I'll throw in that his stronger bair looks to be more game changing than attacking out of teleport.

 

[drsusredfish]

The way I see taj use teleport in melee already seemed pretty safe. the attacking out of teleport for offensive purposes is a plus but the game changer I see is retreating / evading with teleport and attacking. I guess i'm envisioning mewtwo with a jigglypuff-esque style of evasive offence ,using teleport. I can just see someone using teleport to run the whole match.

this was a similar issue with zelda but mewtwo's teleport is literally 4 times faster (him 7 frames her 33 frames) and his can be done mid air and has like I think 0-3 frames landing lag when done just above the ground. I can only guess at the landing lag but its really small. his teleport range isn't as big as hers but he goes far enough that most characters can't punish it if they were being offensive and committed to attacking him and now he can add a hit box to that.

 

[ItalianStallion]

The way I see taj use teleport in melee already seemed pretty safe. the attacking out of teleport for offensive purposes is a plus but the game changer I see is retreating / evading with teleport and attacking. I guess i'm envisioning mewtwo with a jigglypuff-esque style of evasive offence ,using teleport. I can just see someone using teleport to run the whole match.

this was a similar issue with zelda but mewtwo's teleport is literally 4 times faster (him 7 frames her 33 frames) and his can be done mid air and has like I think 0-3 frames landing lag when done just above the ground. I can only guess at the landing lag but its really small. his teleport range isn't as big as hers but he goes far enough that most characters can't punish it if they were being offensive and committed to attacking him and now he can add a hit box to that.

Ehh, pick up Melee Mewtwo and try to use teleport to run the match. It's really not that safe. The attack out of it will help, but trust me when I say the move is very punishable. You won't be seeing Mewtwo be the next Jiggz.

 

[Nguz95]

Mewtwo is still going to be susceptible to traditional forms of shield pressure. Falco, Fox, Wolf, and Lucas specifically are going to give him a really hard time in the neutral. A frame perfect dair shine beats out a frame perfect teleport because teleport has no armor on startup. Also, Mewtwo is still going to struggle mightily against characters that can approach from slightly above and in front of him. That was his biggest weak spot in Melee, and so far the only tool he has been given to deal with it is a slightly better utilt. This character will be incredibly dangerous, but his development is going to be like Lucas'. He will start out seeming really weak compared to the rest of the cast because of his high skill floor, and then he will take off once people realize how versatile and dangerous he can be.

Edit: apparently M2K is going to be maining Mewtwo, so we'll see how good he can be pretty quickly.

 

[Shadow Huan]

lol at people thinking that Melee Teleport is super safe.

most people playing Taj's Mewtwo are intimidated before the match even starts because it's Taj's Mewtwo. but against people who aren't intimidated the move is only average... which is why Taj's punish/combo and non Teleport movement game is so bonkers; the only "too good" aspect of Teleport is the ledgestall.

for a move that is supposed to be quick, it is actually pretty unsafe on startup, the trade being that it has very little recovery on the landing frames. being able to attack out of the Teleport will do no good if opposing players (who aren't afriad of you because you aren't Taj) kick you in the face if you try to get some breathing room with it.

it will be a good tech chase option, but nothing that I forsee requiring nerfing or tweaks. in fact if anything the startup might need to be made a touch safer

 

[drsusredfish]

 

[Nguz95]

I chuckled to myself when I read this. Are you taking a jab at theorycrafting?

 

[drsusredfish]

@nguz95 yup. everyone else's and my own.

I Watched this and saw how the average mewtwo player uses teleport. yeah so it can't just be thrown out and you expect profit.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/472597602

Now how bout we talk bout "peach" with a spike/meteor. Hover plus dair. Cruel OP stomp on the face or slow situational never gona work flashiness?
at 18 frames it won't win a speed contest but with mewtwo hovering there...watching...anticipating...waiting, dair pretty menacing off stage now. Any thoughts?

 

[ItalianStallion]

@nguz95 yup. everyone else's and my own.

I Watched this and saw how the average mewtwo player uses teleport. yeah so it can't just be thrown out and you expect profit.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/472597602

Now how bout we talk bout "peach" with a spike/meteor. Hover plus dair. Cruel OP stomp on the face or slow situational never gona work flashiness?
at 18 frames it won't win a speed contest but with mewtwo hovering there...watching...anticipating...waiting, dair pretty menacing off stage now. Any thoughts?

Hover plus dair will be pretty good, in some situations. To clarify it is a meteor. Watching the streams, it seems to beat out a good portion of recoveries (But it's heavily dependent on timing). Also, you can only hover for a second, so Mewtwo players can be thrown off by recovery fake-outs and stalls like Mario's cape. Also, to use the hover with the level of precision required to make the hover-dair a solid option, requires a control change or clawing.

Overall, I see it as a viable option in some situations that has been proven to work at least on stream on plenty of occasions (Granted against people new to the match-up). However, it's going to be nothing compared to Falco's dair edgeguard from the edge of the stage.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah I agree with stallion, its not going to be anything extreme like some of the other meteors and spikes, not to say its going to be bad. Its just not going to be worth less like it was in melee.

 

[EmuKiller]

I highly doubt anyone is going to read this, but I guess this is just ranting like every other part of smashboards.

I'm going to main mewtwo in 3.0. I really like him.

• His grab is stupid. You can grab people that are BEHIND you. It's like he's grabbing with the back of his hip or something it's silly. This should be fixed. http://www.twitch.tv/freemukiller/b/488300298 I mean seriously come on.

• His uptilt is really powerful and huge, it almost makes djc up-air irrelevant. I mean, it doesn't. up-air is still useful. But up-tilt makes comboing spacies auto-pilot now.

• back-air is really good too. I don't think I have to go into anymore detail about this, but think of it in context of gimping your opponent and pretty much any character that has to become vulnerable to recover (marth's forward-B, samus's bomb jump) just got a lot worse.

• last move I think might be too good is forward smash. You can't really reduce the range because then it'd really just beat out down smash in a lot of situations, but yeah the sweet spot of fsmash feels cheap. And how far it pushes away shields is nuts.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If there's a balance problem with Mewtwo, it'll probably be with his fair/bair. Bair has more reach than pretty much any other move in the game barring D3's ftilt. It also comes out near-instantly, and has knockback that can send light characters into blast zones at ~100%. Being able to do it out of teleport is slightly obscene.

-guy whose roommate plays m2

 

[Nguz95]

Indeed. He is the ultimate fighting machine after all.

 

[Shadow Huan]

lol nerf? if anything he needs a few positive tweaks, as I have said elsewhere.

a slight boost to upsmash's knockback so that it kills at less than like 150% would be nice

Confusion needs to act as an actual command grab. it does not stop people attacking in the air, and seems to... I dk, push opponents away when they are attacking on the ground... smash attacks seems to sort of clank with it. it activates the Counters and is blocked by Link's Shield (!). this may be a bug (i reported it in the Bug section) or perhaps a coding limitation?

the ftilt needs a knockback adjustment of some kind, I can't believe I'm saying this but it was better in Melee. it definitly feels weaker.

perhaps a lower trejectory for the new throw? something knee-esque?

I would say something about Teleport's startup, but having a safer startup + being able to attack out if it will have people calling foul, and with good reason

a bit better defense might help a bit in the long run, more traction maybe?

anything else would be greedy lol, (perhaps some light armor on a few moves?) besides what I have listed Mewtwo:M has really grown on me, and props to Shell and the other guy who spent all the time making the character, thank you for all the hard work. the above opinions are not meant to take away from your achivement lol