Captain Falcon: Frame Advantage & Disadvantage on Shield

[Gawain]

So I've decided to do a little compilation on Falcon's moves as it comes to safety on shield. I've not done the entire moveset yet, I've mostly not bothered with special moves, but I thought I'd post some preliminary data here.

Ground Moves:

Jab 3 "Gentleman"
-20 on shield, -13 if shield dropped
Ftilt
-20 on shield, -13 if shield dropped
Dtilt
-21 on shield, -14 dropped
Utilt
-18 on shield, -11 dropped
Fsmash
-33 on shield, -24 dropped
Dsmash(hit 1)
-24 on shield, -31 dropped
Dsmash(hit 2)
-14 on shield, -7 dropped

Aerial Moves:

Nair(weak hit)
~ -14 or so on shield, ~ -7 on drop
Note: Variance is due to how close to the ground you are when landing
Uair
~ -5 on shield, +2 on drop(nice!)
Note: Variance due to landing. Also, note that it has an unusual 10 frames of hitlag, so the closer you
land the better
Dair
~ -18 On shield at best, -11 on drop at best
Note: Variance due to landing
Bair
~ -8 on shield if you perform the move and land very close to the ground, -1 if they have to drop in this case
~ -7 on shield if you autocancel the move, 0 if they have to drop (NOTE: the advantage in this case varies TREMENDOUSLY based on character height, platform situation etc)
Note: Both situations for bair assume that you hit with the sweetspot

EDIT: I'll be putting this into the guide too, and updating as I get more detailed information. Interestingly, if you are close enough to the ground, you trigger your landing animation while your opponent is in hitlag. While this doesn't seem to do much vs shields, if you actually HIT someone, you actually gain all those frames of hitlag as advantage. This is why those "frame cancel" knee combos work. This technically works for any move, but the difference isn't as noticeable. Might be cool for getting a leg up every now and then. Too bad it doesn't seem to do much to shields.

Edit: Added bair.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I was most interested in bair. Nice to see up air is a good option though. :D

 

[Gawain]

I was most interested in bair. Nice to see up air is a good option though. :D

I'm not really sure logistically how to do bair, since most of the time you auto cancel it. It depends heavily on your momentum, distance and a bunch of other stuff. Pretty sure most of the time it's pretty safe when spaced though.

 

[tdksparda]

what do you mean by drop?

 

[teluoborg]

Drop means you let go of the shield button to perform your action, so anything that isn't roll, dodge, grab, Usmash or Up B.

Just for curiosity how did you proceed ?

I'm not really sure logistically how to do bair, since most of the time you auto cancel it. It depends heavily on your momentum, distance and a bunch of other stuff. Pretty sure most of the time it's pretty safe when spaced though.

How is Bair different from Uair ? You could test it when closest to the ground with the sweetspot, when autocanceled with the sourspot on small characters, and with the sweetspot on tall characters.

Also pretty sure Utilt isn't -11 on shield lol.

 

[Gawain]

Drop means you let go of the shield button to perform your action, so anything that isn't roll, dodge, grab, Usmash or Up B.

Just for curiosity how did you proceed ?
How is Bair different from Uair ? You could test it when closest to the ground with the sweetspot, when autocanceled with the sourspot on small characters, and with the sweetspot on tall characters.

Also pretty sure Utilt isn't -11 on shield lol.

The way I tested it was I used a capture card and recorded Falcon hitting Falcon's shield in training mode, and hand counted the frames, referencing the KuroganeHammer website for the first actionable frame of the given attack vs when the opponent was able to drop shield (aka shieldstun). You simply add 7 frames of advantage If their character needs to drop shield to punish.

Its possible that I screwed up on up tilt but I'm pretty sure that's accurate. At least as long as the data on kurogane is accurate. I wish it was -11 though lol

EDIT: Just realized i had the numbers backwards lol its -18, -11 on drop. Still not bad for the range.

EDIT: I've been trying to get data for bair, but it just seems off, I feel like I might be doing something wrong? Anyways I'm testing this on Fox, here are my findings.

Bair: Hit on frame 10, land on frame 20(best I could consistently do though you can technically autocancel at 19)
This gives you -7 OOS punish, 0 if they have to drop. Pretty darn good. Shield push is pretty decent on it too.

On a non-autocancelled bair I'm getting -8 if you hit on frame 10 and land on frame 12 (best I could consistently do in this case)

Here's the breakdown: Bair has 12 frames of landing lag. An autocancelled one has 4 frames (hard landing) Typically when you autocancel, you're stuck in the air for a good few frames longer than when you just do the attack close to the ground. This explains why they're so close. This probably varies a LOT in an actual match though, when you have horizontal movement etc. I think the way this move positions Caps hitbox as well as its push and range makes it his safest aerial for sure. But landing uairs are not far behind. Characters with slow or short reaching grabs can't get either if spaced properly.

 

[teluoborg]

Nice work. And what about hitting with weak Bair and autocanceling it ? I know shieldstun depends on the percents a move deals so you trade less shieldstun for less ending lag, with the best case scenario being that you touch the shield on frame 14-15 and land on frame 19-20.

 

[Gawain]

Nice work. And what about hitting with weak Bair and autocanceling it ? I know shieldstun depends on the percents a move deals so you trade less shieldstun for less ending lag, with the best case scenario being that you touch the shield on frame 14-15 and land on frame 19-20.

iirc correctly, a sourspotted bair only caused 2 frames of shield stun (pretty low). It MIGHT have been 3 but I'm pretty sure it was 2. This means that they only have 2 frames before they can do an OOS punish. So if you hit on frame 15(ideal) and land on 19, you end up with -6 OOS punish. This sounds good on paper, but considering that the shield push on weak hit bair is very, VERY low, this is pretty unsafe. There's a good chance they'll grab you, or worse. You're gonna wanna sweetspot this whenever possible, since even if you incur the landing lag, against a character you might not be able to simply short hop bair, the disadvantage is about the same, but the push is much better.

Now, I've found that if you try to hit on frame 10 from a shorthop like you normally would, characters like Fox can still be hit, at least their shields. So for most cases character height probably isn't SUPER important, though I can forsee problems like a crouching kirby or something making your approach much less safe.