Can't Beat Shulk

[ryuu seika]

I've been fighting through all the level 9s to get an idea of how the characters work and have found a few of them annoying but none impossible until now. With other counters, they are predictable, visible and punishable, even if they do come out to fast and will kill you every time they succeed.
With Shulk's, however, it seems to come out faster than any potential kill move Kirby has and many of his other moves besides. A well timed and Monado aided counter will even KO me at below 40%. And this isn't even exclusive to the cheaty input reading AI, I've known real opponents do the same.

I simply don't get how I'm supposed to beat this guy as he can counter everything but a grab/inhale or a Hammer Flip on reaction, can beamsword me in the face if I ever approach with Jumping Inhale and will hit me long before I ever get within Hammer Flip or grab range.

 

[Unknownkid]

Shulk moves are slow. So beat him to the punch or let him attack you react. Also, I believe his counter cannot hit you if you dtilt it. I could be wrong with that statement.

Otherwise, Bait the Counter and Punish.

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm pretty sure I've Dtilted the counter and still been hit before and, as said, it seems to be faster than my attacks, meaning that it's simply not used unless it will work. My first response would be to use uncounterable moves but, since stone's been nerfed, grab requires crazy closeness and all inhale variants are highly punishable, that doesn't seem like an option.
It's possible that running shield to grab might work but, otherwise, Shulk seems to counter my everything.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Don't know why you're practicing against the AI. Don't be too aggro against shulk. He outranges us easily. When he tries counter keep yourself spaced, or go for a grab. I believe I've been able to dodge through a counter or make it miss by floating.

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm practicing vs AI because it lets me play lagless with custom moves and no items on whatever stage I want to get a feel for the characters I'm facing. I get that it's far from perfect but, when even local play with the 3DS' less than a foot apart lags out, what isn't?

I'm still not getting why the advice is "When he tries his counter...". When he tries his counter I'm already committed to a move and can't do anything about it. He does not activate his counter until I'm about to hit him.
This is the case with AI Shulk but I have also seen it, to a lesser extent, with real Shulk players.

I've tried shielding the move, I've tried dodging it, I've tried ducking it, I've tried attacking through Shulk to try and be out of range. I've tried perfectly spacing a Dair to only just glance him on the first hit. Not one of those worked. Crouching at below ~25% seems to ignore the knockback of the move in certain parts of Shulk's counter's hitbox but not the front and you definitely still take damage. Spaced perfectly and with a C-Stick, this might enable an Fsmash punish but, on the original 3DS, I can't turn attack far enough and fast enough out of crouch to make this useful.
There does seem to be a blind spot in Shulk's counter if you are in exactly the same position as his hurtbox was at the start but that's closer than you'd have to be for grabs which are already nigh impossible to land due to Shulk's ridiculous range.

 

[Unknownkid]

I disagree. I believe is a decent method to understand what you can or cannot do against characters. Though, I will not always rely on it.

Anyways, I'm afraid I don't understand, Ryuu Seika. Is this strictly about Shulk's counter? If you are facing Shulk AI then brace to get hit. AI reads you like crazy. Against Normal Player or Good Player - if he abuse Counter (Good Players don't abuse counter) then Bait it, use Grab more or Inhale.

 

[ryuu seika]

Anyways, I'm afraid I don't understand, Ryuu Seika. Is this strictly about Shulk's counter? If you are facing Shulk AI then brace to get hit. AI reads you like crazy. Against Normal Player or Good Player - if he abuse Counter (Good Players don't abuse counter) then Bait it, use Grab more or Inhale.

My issue stems from the counter but counter is not the only problem.
The three main answers to a counter* are grab, inhale or charge a hammer till just after the counter ends. All three of these are rendered terrible options by the rest of Shulk's moveset due to its sheer range.

Getting close enough to grab without the blue monado is nigh impossible and getting the monado is a highly risky endeavour in itself. Inhale is well signposted and outranged by a beamsword to the face and the hammer also has the problem of not hitting him unless you're well within the range where he can outspeed it, making it useless if he doesn't counter.
And, of course, since he gets to see your move before having to counter, why would he?

*Most non-Kirby characters have a 4th in projectiles.

Sure, just spamming counter will get you nowhere but hitting counter in response to any move but inhale will stop EVERYTHING unless you let the Kirby up far closer than you have any reason to.

As I see it, the only way to play the matchup seems to be to run at Shulk with a shield and pray he doesn't grab you.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Sounds like your issue is with shulks range more than his counter. Like I said before don't be so aggressive, and try approaching and using a perfect shield. If you're getting nailed with counters, you're being too aggressive and not paying attention to what shulk does. You're also not taking into account that level AI's read your inputs.

Also, I just fought a level 9 shulk with three stocks to test for myself. He only managed to hit me with one counter., all his other counters failed, because they were never activated by me. Why did that one hit? Because I got too greedy and aggressive and didn't space myself properly when he tried using it. I only died once that match and it was due to some weird glitch, not him. He countered my final cutter recovery, missed hitting me, but Kirby fell through the edge of the stage instead of grabbing it. This was on Omega Magicant.

To get close, I shielded aerials, and rolled behind or shielded against his smashes and then grabbed him. You have to punish his laggy attacks. It's the same thing you have to do with Ike.

Also, my 3ds slide pad fell victim to smash bros, it's now damaged, and isn't working too well. I'm not even rough when I play.

 

[ryuu seika]

To get close, I shielded aerials, and rolled behind or shielded against his smashes and then grabbed him. You have to punish his laggy attacks. It's the same thing you have to do with Ike.

That's kind of what I was getting at with the dash -> shield -> pray no grab option. Maybe that's a better option than I'm aware of though, I'm not exactly adept at shielding in fighting games and never saw much reason to use the shoulder buttons in Melee. The ability to slide while shielding makes it look a little better in Smash 4 but old habits die hard I guess.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

That's kind of what I was getting at with the dash -> shield -> pray no grab option. Maybe that's a better option than I'm aware of though, I'm not exactly adept at shielding in fighting games and never saw much reason to use the shoulder buttons in Melee. The ability to slide while shielding makes it look a little better in Smash 4 but old habits die hard I guess.

Well it's like @Reserved said in the guide topic. "Kirby was created as an offensive character but Nerfed to be defensive." Always try to space yourself. Smash 4 is about "footsies" or so I keep hearing, and I'm taking footsies to mean spacing yourself as you attack, unless I'm wrong.

When I was attacking from the air, I didn't get hit with shulk's counter because I spaced myself with retreating short hopped f-air, and back air, and dropped to the ground with a fast fall when he activated the move. It was out of counter's range, but close enough to punish with a grab.

 

[Unknownkid]

Oh, I see your issue. I guess I see your point and I feel you are little too conscious about Shulk's counter/vision. I have been reading the Shulk thread to see what kind of input I can give you --

-Shulk does have range against us but he is slow. He does not have a projectile but we do. His Vision doesn't go as far enough if we abuse the tip of the Final's Cutter beam. That means he has to commit.
-His Monado does more damage closer to the middle of the sword than the tip. So he plays like Roy in a sense.
-All his Smash moves have delay before the beam.
-Most Shulks are going to approach with Nair since it cover a good area and has minimal landing lag.
-He has two version of Vision. Regular Vision and Forward Vision (Press forward in the direction of the counter hit). Latter does more damage, knockback and comes out quick! but the hit box is all over the place.
-Vision reflect the damage and knock back on the hit by a multiple of 1.3. So multiple hits (like Dair, Dash Attack or A-Combo) might be your friend here.
-Vision last longer than most counters but has a longer delay (2-4 seconds). Just bait the move and punish with whatever. It does not have to do be Hammer Flip.
-Shield is your friend. Dash ->Shield and if you assume he is going to grab -> Side Dodge -> Punish.

I have fought plenty of Shulks and other counter players. From FG and Friends, none of them abuse counter like the computer except for my best friend (but he knows my style too well haha). So take a deep breath and calm your mind. It might be tough but once you understand this match up, you will improve a lot. You got this, bro!

 

[meleebrawler]

Bit of a misconception with him being like Roy there. Only a couple
of his moves have this property, those being the ones where he thrusts
followed by extending a beam. So, FSmash, Usmash, Uair and Dair.

And even with those moves, if you hit with the tip, you still get full
knockback, unlike Roy's "wet noodle".

 

[Unknownkid]

Bit of a misconception with him being like Roy there. Only a couple
of his moves have this property, those being the ones where he thrusts
followed by extending a beam. So, FSmash, Usmash, Uair and Dair.

And even with those moves, if you hit with the tip, you still get full
knockback, unlike Roy's "wet noodle".

Oh! Thanks for the correction.

 

[ryuu seika]

Thanks guys, this last bunch of posts sounds promising.

@ GrnFzzTgr : I generally know what I'm doing with regards to the spacing of my moves and I think I have a feel for where, within Shulk's range, lie the areas of differing risk. Fsmash and such can easily hit from just a short way inside his range but some of Kirby's shorter moves do require him to be within actual sword (not beam) length for a noticeable (if still short) period. The former grants you a lot more reaction time and thus less chance of him actually hitting you, while, by the time you reach the latter, a hit is near guaranteed.
Retreating Bair requires me to already be within that problem zone and Fair would likely put me within the boundary aswell but they do pose an interesting escape option and I like the idea of using my momentum like that. It almost seems familiar from my Melee days.

@ Unknownkid : I know I am being way overconscious about Vision but it really does seem like, if one could have the required speed of non-instinctual reaction, the move could put a stop to almost everything. I am now at the point where I'm winning 3 out of 4 matches against AI Shulk but it feels empty and unjustified. He's not countering me at times when I know full well he's able to, just to give me a chance. I'm only winning because the character isn't performing even close to what he could be and I suspect I'd be just as dissatisfied facing humans with poor counter speed.
At this stage, I feel as though I have to be able to outplay the possibility more than the reality, just so I can be satisfied with my victories.
Now, onto your actual points:

Talking about the end of Final Cutter is interesting. I honestly thought I was the only person to use this move offensively as a projectile and thus the only person who would choose Wave Cutter as a custom. I have not had the luck with the move that you have so I figured my custom version might be the problem however, on closer inspection, Wave Cutter looks as though it might actually have more range than its default counterpart. I will need to test this further to see if your suggestion works but it's right up my alley if it does.
Points 2 and 3 explain why Shulk tends to hit closer than he needs to and only frequently uses the beam against Jumping Inhale, Stone and recovery.
Nair doesn't look too bad, comparatively, and can probably be ducked under if he throws it out at the height of his short hop.
When I've referred to how fast Vision comes out, I've been referring to the speed of the hit blocking section, not the attack portion. Still, it's interesting to know that there are two versions, maybe this is why my ability to crouch cancel the move at low percents has been so variable.
Hitting with Dair does not stop Vision from Killing me as the move has great downwards knockback, even on a single hit, which somehow all gets translated into horizontal by the counter. Dash attack, on the other hand, has all kinds of weird going for it. I like to aim my dash attacks to take place roughly ontop of the target so as to hit from both sides and leave it unclear as to where I will be when the move ends. If, however, the move ends exactly there, I don't get shoved aside like I would be if we were both stationary and so end up right where Shulk was. It only happened one time but it looks like, if positioned perfectly, you can avoid being hit at all this way. I have no idea why this would be.
The idea with baiting and punishing with Hammer Flip was that Hammer Flip can be charged indefinitely, making it perfect for holding until counters end. There is little else that can trick someone into using the move if they have AI reactions but human reactions will be much more abusable.
And defensive mindgames, yuck. Still, it does seem the way to go.

And thanks for the conclusion. I do believe I learn something from every AI I struggle with and Shulk has been the hardest of them all. I have no doubt I will emerge from this a better player for the experience, despite how much the process frustrates me.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I'm finding it odd that you're having trouble with the Shulk AI, I don't have any trouble with it at all. I still say I think you're being too aggressive. I find the AI to be very predictable, it loves to spam counter, I've even seen it try to use the counter when in the air when I was nowhere near it.

Real Shulks on the other hand? They're a pain.

 

[ryuu seika]

Yes, I'm probably being too aggressive. Too aggressive is, infact, what I am known for here. My Melee play has previously been referred to as "balls to the wall Kirby" and with good reason. I was one of the few people who liked the Fireball dash and I used it frequently as a means to start hit chains on swordsmen.

I can play a campy projectile game with the right hat and I can even attempt to draw out an approach but dodging or blocking a hit to create an opening isn't really in my nature. Until now, the most defensive things I've done are shove my foot into fireballs to close a gap against Mario and waiting for an approach atop Brinstar.

I'm trying shield options against Shulk but I'm not really happy with the results and I'm pretty sure learning to use shields and rolls effectively is going to be tantamount to relearning the game from the ground up.

That said, the only real Sulk I had a problem with was even more counter happy than the AI so...

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

I have a pretty aggro style myself, I'm not too fond of having to relearn how to play it either, but if I'm going to continue using Kirby or playing smash 4, it seems I have to. Brawl and Smash 4 favor defense.

 

[Unknownkid]

No problem, man. That is what community is here for. Anyways, to sort of rebuttal your claims:
Any counter with perfect reads can be unstoppable. But once you become predictable, you are asking for a Hammer in the face. That is why players are train to use Counter Sparingly.
Here is a video to prove my claim. Also I agree with GrnFzzTgr. No offense but Shulk AI is easy and wonky. He won't do what I expect him to do. Half the time I was dtilting or couching and he stood there. Once I stood up, he move or did something. He kept getting hit by Final Cutter that I have do this myself. It was difficult but doable.

As you can see, both version cannot reach you if you spaced correctly and hit at the tip. Now, you mention you are using the Wave Cutter. Good! It distance is slightly further than Final Cutter and does more damage. Next, the Vision timer decreases each time it is perform a complete counter. I don't know the refresh point but you know the timing get harder. Finally, look at where Shulk stop and look at Kirby. Notice how Kirby is in a neutral position. I was able to side dodge if he was closer or perform attack if he was further back.

Yeah, Dash Attack is weird. You can also charge Smash moves too. Of course, it is has a limit but if you predict a counter then store up for MORE POWER. Wait... your friend spam Counter? I will love to fight him. Sounds like an easy target. Once again, GrnFzzTgr is right. You are too aggressive. Nothing wrong with keeping the pressure just play smart, bro.

Hmm... now I know how to upload videos, I guess I post how bad I am at this game in the Video Thread.

 

[Pepto]

Swallow him. Monado Kirby. Become a god.

 

[Rochette]

Matchs against Shulk are really funny. I love that MU but sometimes it's hard if your opponent knows how to use monado...

First you have to know Monado too. Shield is great and smash risky.
Don't let him use these arts of monado like he wants.

Then, let him go for you and punish. Dash Pivot for grabbing and tilt. I used to punish with Dair fastfall + Fsmash and then short hop final cutter.

And if you train again AI (amiibo are clearly better) , don't take Kirby Vs Shulk. Take Shulk and go against Kirby. Both side of the mirror.

 

[|RK|]

Swallow him. Monado Kirby. Become a god.

Seriously.

I don't play Kirby that often these days, but when I play against Shulks, I find some way to get that Monado. Then I go off of what I learned from the Shulk boards. Unfortunately, some of the people I play online have no clue how to use the Monado. From what I can gather, here's the breakdown:

Speed for approach. For Shulk's, this lowers jump so they have a better shorthop on aerials. Since Kirby already has a pretty short stature, this doesn't do as well for us. But whatever.

You can also use Jump for approaches, and to generally make yourself impossible to edgeguard.

After you've gotten in with your art of choice, you can use Buster to improve your combo ability. Knockback is lessened, so it *may* (don't quote me) be possible to do more utilt strings. You'll also be doing more damage on each hit, natch.

Now, if you've gotten your combos off well enough, and you are decently far behind in percentage, feel free to finish him off with Smash.

If you are in danger of dying, potentially use Shield, but that may not increase your survivability too much. Particularly if Shulk's in Smash mode himself.

Oh - pre-patch, Shulk's (and Kirby) could use the arts to cancel landing lag from aerials. I don't know if this is still possible post-patch.

But those are the basics of the Monado Arts.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Hi @ |RK| , I think I remember you from Kirby's Rainbow Resort.

 

[|RK|]

Hi @ |RK| , I think I remember you from Kirby's Rainbow Resort.

Geez, I forgot about that place lol

Nice to see you, then!

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

It's better left forgotten >_>

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm back with an update.

Previously I touched upon how a well spaced dash attack could position you inside of Shulk so that, if he counters, his attack hitbox misses. This was all well and good but, because it was so signposted, noone who knew the trick would ever counter that, making it a one time gimmick. Instead, they would shield the move so as to be able to follow up.
Today, however, I discovered that an immediate dtilt somehow results in Kirby hitting them before one would think his dash attack lag would be up, allowing him to land a hit if you forsee the punish after shield and potentially setting up for a minor combo.

The question is, can anyone confirm or disprove the legitimacy of this action? Have I discovered something useful or was it really all just dumb luck?

 

[Nerdicon]

Shulk beats Kirby pretty much every time unless Kirby can truly feel the power of the Monado. With buster Kirby you can dair to u-tilt string for FOREVER. I've met a Kirby in buster form who u-tilted me from 40 to 70 and then followed up with an up smash

 

[ryuu seika]

That's great if you can land a Dair but it's fairly signposted, unsafe on shield if you would end before landing and close enough to be successfully countered if you wouldn't and can potentially be beaten out by laser blades if you try it too high.
Dair vs Shulk, in my (admittedly limited) experience, only seems to be good to switch things up if you expect a ground approach punish. As such, that string would probably only work as a stock one scare tactic after training them to react to ground moves IMO. Still potentially useful but more for mindgame reasons I think.

 

[Pepto]

Shulk beats Kirby pretty much every time unless Kirby can truly feel the power of the Monado.

Shulk main here, Kirby eats Shulk alive, even without the Arts. Shulk has significant blind spots at close range, Kirby can duck under Shulk's grab, and Shulk's grounded attacks are laggy while his aerials aren't safe on shield. If you're consistently losing to Shulk as Kirby, you're getting outplayed.

 

[Nerdicon]

Shulk main here, Kirby eats Shulk alive, even without the Arts. Shulk has significant blind spots at close range, Kirby can duck under Shulk's grab, and Shulk's grounded attacks are laggy while his aerials aren't safe on shield. If you're consistently losing to Shulk as Kirby, you're getting outplayed.

Shulk and Kirby main here, Shulk destroys Kirby. Kirby just doesn't have the range to get in, and most of Kirby's attacks don't have enough range or power to justify for their poor range. Kirby's just a mediocre character in general. Speed form nair is safer on shield if you land behind Kirby, and while f-tilt misses because crouch, d-tilt still hits. So while one of your best kill options are gone, Kirby's incredibly light, so smash form practically anything will kill, especially down throw or up tilt.

 

[kirbyfan66]

I've played a number of Shulk's, and I'm not sure if they were bad, but I've wrecked most of them. It really is just a matter of playing patiently and then going in. The Counter and Shulk's range are the big things to worry about, from my experiences.

 

[ryuu seika]

Previously I touched upon how a well spaced dash attack could position you inside of Shulk so that, if he counters, his attack hitbox misses. This was all well and good but, because it was so signposted, noone who knew the trick would ever counter that, making it a one time gimmick. Instead, they would shield the move so as to be able to follow up.
Today, however, I discovered that an immediate dtilt somehow results in Kirby hitting them before one would think his dash attack lag would be up, allowing him to land a hit if you forsee the punish after shield and potentially setting up for a minor combo.

Can we discuss this please? I'm not 100% sure that my findings are accurate but, if so, the possibility gives Kirby a great opening which he might be able to use to his advantage even after they sus it out, depending on whether or not grab can come it in time if the hold the shield longer in anticipation.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Use inhale on him. And then use the monado arts on them back.

 

[Pepto]

Shulk and Kirby main here, Shulk destroys Kirby.

You need to do some labbing on Kirby then. Shulk has a strong midrange game but Kirby destroys him close range. And Shulk is literally combo food. OOS grab literally any of his weak fast attacks and or dodge his strong laggy ones, free combos for days.

 

[Quarium]

Didn't even read most replies on the thread but I will keep it sweet and short.

- Be pacient
- Punish a lot
- Perfect shielding
- Grabbing

Don't be too agressive on a Shulk and do LOTS of mixups so he can't read you. Also, you can always steal his Monado and have fun with that.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Like what most other people say, don't be too aggressive.
I rarely come across goods shulk players, and what they did was space with their back airs and tilts.
I can't recall much about that, but you definatly want to keep your distance, and use final cutter because it's range goes surprisingly far.
If you can get his neutral special
You got it in the bag. And it can sometimes be a pain to get the inhale, but it's possible.
I would say that they are fairly even in MU, but if Kirby gets Monado, Kirby has the true advantage