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Can we talk numerical values for Samus's matchups?

Ringedge

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I like numbers, and find it fun to compare what people think the numerical values for matchups are. This should all be taken as opinion not fact. Anyways I will start with what I think.

Fox: 50-50, possibly 55-45 for Fox.

Falco: 45-55 for Samus.

Jiggs: I have no idea how this matchup works.

Marth: 65-35 for Marth. If Marth goes super agro and doesn't let Samus breath there really isn't much she can do about it.

Sheik: 65-35, possibly 60-40 for Sheik. I think I am the only person that thinks this is more do-able that Marth.

Peach: 55-45, possibly 50-50, Samus has to put in more work to get what she needs but they can do about the same amount of damage.

Falcon: 45-55 for Falcon. Both characters destroy each other just one character does harder.

ICs: 40-60 for Samus. Missiles absolutely wreck ICs, they can't do much about them. As well as Samus can edgeguard them pretty good and has moves that can separate them pretty easy.

Feel free to argue against me, we are all friends here, and debates leaves both parties with more information than previously owned!
 
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JerkPhil

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Here are my thoughts about the match ups in top level play:

Fox: 40-60 to 35-65. A defensive Fox gives us a very hard time on wider stages. I think it's an even match up on YS and FoD though.

Falco: 45-55. A defensive Falco (laser and/or platform camping) can be hard to catch. When we've cornered him, we're good though.

Jiggs: 40-60. She rests us out of shield if we're not careful. Without our charge shot, this match up could possibly be our worst.

Marth: 40-60. Both characters punishes and edge guards the other well, but Marth does it better. We need to read Marth's options against the missiles to beat him.

Sheik: 35-65 (even worse in NTSC). Even though I play the PAL version, I think Sheik's our worst match up. It's easy for her to edge guard us. Her punishes are much better than ours. She's fast, and we can't do much against her auto cancel Fairs.

Peach: 45-55. I do well against all Peaches but Armada in my region. I'll write my thoughts ignoring him though: Our best chance in this match up is to camp and upB her float cancel aerials OoS. As she's a slow character, she'll have a hard time approaching. Though when she finally gets to us, her punish game is much stronger than ours, and her edge guard too.

Falcon: 40-60. His DD Nair beats pretty much everything we've got, and his punishes are amazing. Choose a smaller stage to easier pin him down with jabs and tilts to have a chance. Falcon should never be able to recover.

ICs: 70-30 to 75-25. ICs second/third worst match up after Peach (and Fox). I can't see anything ICs has against Samus. They can't do anything against missiles, it's easy to separate them, edge guard, and get rid off Nana. I haven't dropped a tournament game against ICs since I barely lost to the best ICs in Sweden 5 years ago (as long as I have mained Samus). I've also had hardcore ICs mains counterpick secondaries against me in pure desperation after I've 4-stocked them.
 

ManoxMano

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Ganon: 45-55 samus' favour. I think samus can greatly control the neutral game with her superior tools, but it is very easy for Ganon to convert well from stray hits. Ganon heavily takes advantage of our positional weakness in the air, off stage, and on ledge
 

Litt

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Eh, I think the MU has different values for the game in neutral vs the game in duke it all out game play vs complete defensive play. Like fox samus, deff foxes are hard to catch, but what makes a deadly fox is one that can run away just long enough to bait out attacks and then punish the bajeezus out of us. As for Puff Samus, in neutral with a charge shot, I samus the edge is given to samus, but as soon as that charge is gone, it goes back to an all around 30-70 MU for puff having the strong edge.
 

Mervis

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I think bombs are good against ICs too
I feel like out of all the good moves Samus can use against ICs, bombs aren't one of them. Samus can split climbers really easily, and morph bomb is not one of those moves.
 

Ringedge

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I have changed my mind about Samus vs. IC's, I recently have been playing more IC's against my friends Samus and it feels a lot harder than I thought, it's more 65-35 to even 70-30 for Samus to me at the moment. Everything Samus excels at is good against IC's.
 

Litt

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I feel like out of all the good moves Samus can use against ICs, bombs aren't one of them. Samus can split climbers really easily, and morph bomb is not one of those moves.
Samus can... late nair on shield fast fell and l canceled can go into an up b to shield poke them before they can do anything, dsmash also separates them quite well, but if they shield it... you gonna get grabbed... :/ Funny enough, platform camping and having the extendur as a mix up really frustrates most IC players since they stay primarily ground... to well.... get grabs and no one else can grab someone from the ground from a platform... or from a platfom from the ground besides samus because extendur homes in on opponent with L. As for bombs, they are a great anti approach tool on stages like FD if forced to go there in a Bo5.


I have changed my mind about Samus vs. IC's, I recently have been playing more IC's against my friends Samus and it feels a lot harder than I thought, it's more 65-35 to even 70-30 for Samus to me at the moment. Everything Samus excels at is good against IC's.
As for your experience playing ICs... you need to understand what a MU really means... when 2 players of the same skill level share equal knowledge of the others character regarding the MU... a mu like 50:50 would mean they have an equal chance winning a game as their opponent, in pure statistic... However should you approach the MU incorrectly and not utilize the tools samus has... you could mistakenly give the incorrect probability because either A. you interpreted your opponents skill level incorrectly relative to your own... B. you mistakenly interpreted your own skill level... and C. you played the MU inefficiently and incorrectly. Alll of which are very common occurrences for mid level players and a main contributor why MUs in general are a hazy issue.
 
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343

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I have changed my mind about Samus vs. IC's, I recently have been playing more IC's against my friends Samus and it feels a lot harder than I thought, it's more 65-35 to even 70-30 for Samus to me at the moment. Everything Samus excels at is good against IC's.
Fly seems to think it's in ICs' favor :p
 

Ringedge

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As for your experience playing ICs... you need to understand what a MU really means... when 2 players of the same skill level share equal knowledge of the others character regarding the MU... a mu like 50:50 would mean they have an equal chance winning a game as their opponent, in pure statistic...
I know what a MU means, that's why I started the thread. I was stating my opinion that I feel Samus Vs. IC's is worst for IC's than I initially thought.
 

Litt

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Fly seems to think it's in ICs' favor :p
The only reason he thinks that is because there is no samus in his region that will camp him... darrell is too aggressive and hugs just refuses to do it
 

Litt

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So then how does a camping samus get through IC's ice block spam?
Its not a question of getting through anything... they are defending from a missile spam... and ice blocks arent going to save their ass... it forces them to approach because nana can get cliped by a missile easily since her shield comes out 1/10th of a second after popos
 

JerkPhil

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Shoot missiles above ice blocks. Also charge shot goes through and hits them right through.
 

ManoxMano

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I dont know in my experience I sh missile and they get their two blocks in time which I have to shield, and they'll shield in time as well feels very stalemate-y. I'm assuming its worse for them if I get PS-like platforms, not sure how bad it is with battlefield or DL64 platforms

I suck at the MU I'm looking for info tbh I'll get a recent video from one of my tournaments soon in the critique thread
 

343

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When I played Fly at DYFWI, I cped Stadium and he told me afterward that he usually CPs Stadium vs HugS. My missile spam is pretty decent on Stadium, but I felt like I had to spend time shielding his double ice blocks (or at least dodging the ground ones) when he stood on a platform and shot them, so I couldn't camp very effectively.
 

JerkPhil

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Jump over blocks and land with missiles. I've never had any troubles. Also, mix up your distance so you can threaten them with Dair on their reduced shields.
I wish I had some footage of me vs ICs...
 

Mervis

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Or start practicing those legendary SHFFMC and go in on those silly eskimos ;)
 

C-SAF

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Can anyone comment on the link matchup for samus? The best player in Ottawa's name is SAUS, a link main, and his wall of projectiles is extremely frustrating. I've heard this is a bad matchup is the past, but if there are any strategies against it I'd love to hear them. Right now im thinking the matchup is like 70-30 for link, but just an opinion of course.
 

Mervis

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Can anyone comment on the link matchup for samus? The best player in Ottawa's name is SAUS, a link main, and his wall of projectiles is extremely frustrating. I've heard this is a bad matchup is the past, but if there are any strategies against it I'd love to hear them. Right now im thinking the matchup is like 70-30 for link, but just an opinion of course.
My older brother has a pretty solid Link. It's usually 50/50 between us but I feel like Link has an edge. His projectiles are waaaaay better than Samus'. Once you get a hit in, he's combo food, but same goes for Link. It's hard to approach a Link. Idk how accurate this all is, but it's what I've learned from the numerous games I've played.
 

EddyBearr

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Young Link is generally understood as better against floaties (including Samus) and we generally consider it 60-40 while being a "soft-counter."

60-40 Young Link's favor if both players know everything;
Soft-counter meaning that it goes against traditional Samus gameplay -- she has to play weird/different.

Link is probably 50/50 to 60-40 in his favor against Samus, but I think 50-50 makes more sense here
 

343

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Link is an interesting matchup for Samus because (1) his projectiles are better, (2) he has a sword, (3) he can shieldgrab ftilt on shield T____T
 

ManoxMano

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He can sheildgrab uptilt too. An old school Link in my region was doing it consistently
I think samus needs to emphasize grab+jab pressure heavily in this MU. Edgeguarding seems tricky but Link usually can't sweetspot his grapple, so free nair/whatever
 

Litt

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He can sheildgrab uptilt too. An old school Link in my region was doing it consistently
I think samus needs to emphasize grab+jab pressure heavily in this MU. Edgeguarding seems tricky but Link usually can't sweetspot his grapple, so free nair/whatever
You need to pressure link into his sheild, and stay a distance enough away to not get camped out ( you will lose in a projectile war, dont try it) and just close enough as to avoid his sword... Link is by far a worse MU for samus than Marth... especially since link marth is 50-50 and samus marth is 70-30 (arguable)
 
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343

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"samus marth is 70-30"? I'm confused by that statement

I don't think it's nearly that imbalanced in either direction, and I'm really confused as to why you're comparing it to Link-Marth instead of a Samus matchup
 
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C-SAF

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Young Link is generally understood as better against floaties (including Samus) and we generally consider it 60-40 while being a "soft-counter."

60-40 Young Link's favor if both players know everything;
Soft-counter meaning that it goes against traditional Samus gameplay -- she has to play weird/different.

Link is probably 50/50 to 60-40 in his favor against Samus, but I think 50-50 makes more sense here
I think link counters samus a lot harder than the other floaties. They at least have good air mobility and can get away from the projectile pressure for a short time. Link can also edge guard samus better than peach or jigs imo. I find myself getting grabbed out of shield a lot too, his chainshot negates your up-b out of shield because he doesn't need to be that close. Ive tried sidestepping to avoid the grab, but it comes out to fast to react to in most cases so its almost always got to be anticipated.

Even when you do manage to get link in a bad spot, samus doesn't punish him that hard. Not like peach or jiggs can anyway. I really think this is a hard counter as opposed to a soft one.
 

EddyBearr

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I think link counters samus a lot harder than the other floaties. They at least have good air mobility and can get away from the projectile pressure for a short time. Link can also edge guard samus better than peach or jigs imo. I find myself getting grabbed out of shield a lot too, his chainshot negates your up-b out of shield because he doesn't need to be that close. Ive tried sidestepping to avoid the grab, but it comes out to fast to react to in most cases so its almost always got to be anticipated.

Even when you do manage to get link in a bad spot, samus doesn't punish him that hard. Not like peach or jiggs can anyway. I really think this is a hard counter as opposed to a soft one.
Nah, cause you can still beat Link with Samus. The punishes are harder than you think. I know they're kinda hard against Young Link, and Young Link is less combo-food than Link is, especially for a character that combos like Samus.
 

Thor

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Link-Samus is 55-45 if one is being somewhat generous. I think 70-30 is a bit high but to be honest not terribly unreasonable.

My understanding of the MU (since Barbie validated elsewhere that I have some understanding of what I'm talking about) [warning, crap-ton of text, put in spoilers so that the uninterested get shorter versions]:

The only MU where missiles just suck. I exaggerate somewhat, but in some ways this is also just true. You probably need to put them out there anywhere, but bombs clank with them, boomerang clanks with them, and Link can do other stuff (jab them, nair them, heck I think I saw a video once where a guy dair'd one and used the bounce to hit Samus, then followed with nair since the dair ended in mid-air). If Samus could output missiles at the same rate that Link can output bombs + boomerang she might be ok (I think if you can go crazy like Plup did in that teams match of him and Hbox vs M2K and Armada at Apex 2013, you would be maybe fine???), but Link can usually dodge at least one missile easily while readying something, and his ability to direct his stuff better than Samus (homing isn't strong enough tracking) means he has the edge in camping. So if Link wants to run away, he can kind of do so. His bombs are conducive to platform camping, as is his rang (less so, maybe even less than missiles, but it does enough, especially if Samus is approaching). Charge shot? Link's Hylian shield can block that, and if he's throwing enough stuff at you, you aren't going to have it too often. I think it can also be clanked by at least one of his projectiles (strong arrow? bomb?), although it's usually not hard to dodge. Still good for KOs, but it doesn't help the campy side of stuff that much, except that at last hit scenarios, Link probably is better off not trying to camp you to 200% instead of 130% or whatever.

If Link wants to camp, you probably can keep up (powershielding rang helps a ton, bombs not so much [not to say don't powershield them XD]), but him powershielding missiles is still substantially more rewarding than powershielding a rang (Especially since if you do and he stands still for a like half a second, it often hits his shield and does nothing, then he can pluck a bomb and go back to camping, ready to sling out more projectiles very fast very fast [or he just jumps while plucking a bomb]).

Now let's take a look at kill moves. Samus fsmash is cool and all, but Link is kinda heavy - it's not gonna KO super soon, and Link has decent enough horizontal to recovery to at least make it back, same as dsmash (sometimes ledgehog will be all you need, but if he had a bomb prior or can pull a bomb and has fresh up+b, he probably doesn't need the edge - or if facing forward he has a tether like you). Bairing him by the ledge is still sick and will KO of course, but still not terribly early. Meanwhile Link's dair is incredibly strong, able to negate a lot of Samus's survivability that helps her out so much in other MUs (I think it reliably KOs at like 125% on Dreamland? Possibly earlier but I don't want to oversell it.) His uair is also good for this, not as much, but still means she won't usually live longer than average (given that it's usually used higher up, on DL you're not living it above 150% I believe - again, maybe my numbers are off, I'm avoiding any oversell). The second hit of fsmash ALSO launches vertically, so if that catches you, you will take high knockback (I think it will KO about 140% on DL, maybe sooner). Not to mention the first hit is CC-bait (Link players LOVE when you try to CC fsmash when he's hitting with the far end of the sword, especially since if you face knockdown the second swing will connect rather easily).

Link can outcamp Samus and can out-KO her in terms of knockback (and desirable knockback angles help this greatly). Let's look at edgeguarding.

Samus does have reasonable edgeguards - I'm sure most here know them better than I, but you can bomb and grab ledge to mess up the up+B (or better yet the tether, or at least force a pause instead of pulling up right away), nair him with a good angle on up+B if he goes high, dair is doable I believe [though meteor-cancelling can hilariously make this move punishable by another quick up+B], yada yada. But Link's recovery is long enough that he can come back, and with some good mixups by a Link player, I don't think Samus gets to flowchart him at all - she must react or possibly even guess sometimes (unless dtilt or dsmash can be spaced perfectly - then never mind, it's then just like Marth fsmash in that it's only about timing and spacing - however I believe this is not possible if Link's spacing up+B to avoid it). But Samus can actually be edgeguarded too - Link's arrows suck in most MUs, but they are kind of usable here, since if Samus is high and starts bomb jumping early, Link can just charge one and shoot either a bomb [I think?] or her - and uncharged arrows can do this too (much harder). His rang can do the same thing, as can his own bombs (which are extra damage, not a gimp, but can also lead into more projectiles due to some knockback, which is very relevant against Samus). He can also jump off to nair her - not terribly safe, and not something do much at all (unless set up with rang or bomb first), but it's an option that gets more damage and makes her go deeper, and sometimes can be enough for a KO (usually only on BF or if she's had to tether already). Link is almost certainly easier to edgeguard for a KO than Samus is, but against Samus Link can usually try to get a good 15% if the Samus does any bomb jumping, and good reads/reactions can lead to so much more. Oh, and if we notice you aren't sweetspotting up+b, we can on-stage dair near the ledge for a LOT of damage and KB (around 17%, > 20% if we hit early enough with the dair).

Edgeguarding doesn't explicitly favor Samus either - certainly helps, but... neutral game?

Both have projectiles. So neither should have terrible trouble getting closer, since they can nullify each other rather well (Samus can force Link to weave through missiles as he camps or spend some to clank them out - this lets Samus move closer, though it's not enough to make counter-camping effective, as noted earlier). I think Link still has easier approaches with the better projectile game, but I think if Samus wants to really focus and play close-quarters-combat, she can get in if she's diligent, good at cornering, and picks when to go in and when to just shoot missiles and find a better time. Now for close quarters, starting with shielding.

Link doesn't exactly shield-pressure much, and if he tries anything stupid repeatedly, Samus gets up+b OoS - but if you whiff, you will eat a uair, dair, fsmash, up+b, or dsmash, usually no questions asked [often in that order of priority] (ESPECIALLY Final Destination). Link's tilts aren't safe on shield, but he won't ftilt much, dtilt is kinda sorta ok spaced (like a not-Marth's but solid), and utilt is minus but a good juggler and can still be ok if not repeated. Fsmash isn't actually safe on shield (first hit arguably is since Link gets IASA frame 1 that he can't commit to hit 2, so if he can read your OoS option that's aggressive you shouldn't be able to hit him), but if you're if it knocks you offstage it becomes safe for sure [maybe safe if lightshielded???]. Also safe if you can't wavedash OoS (but these are Samus mains, so that's a silly thing to say). Usmash on shield sucks (punish him), but usmash isn't that good in this MU, dsmash back half is not safe but not horrific (if you wavedash OoS I think it's actually like 0 on shield because of wavedashing taking like 13 frames or whatever). Nair is decent, not perfect but not terrible on shield (Can get up+b'd if not timed well, but maybe can be spaced to avoid that, and if spaced close to ground can't be up+B'd without risk of him shielding), fair is 0 on shield if done properly (and definitely spacable), dair is OH MY GAWD I'M GETTING SHIELDGRABBED BY A SAMUS on shield [or if it's not then that's stupid, but it's the only move that doesn't have the on-shield data listed, and I can't seem to avoid a Samus shieldgrab when I whiff a dair], uair is kinda bad (can't grab it but can up+B it for sure), but uair on shield shouldn't happen much. Bair is... odd... he can wavedash out of it or DJ anything before hitting the ground if done right, and I think if spaced to land immediately after hitbox 2 it's like -1 on shield, so that's safe too. Link's projectiles can also cover him (I like having a rang behind Samus (or some others) when attacking since it coming back serves as protection from major punishes). Link's jab I think it about as good as Samus's at dorking around on shield, except disjointed and Samus has a slower grab and less range on up+b, so probably even safer. Thus Link can dance around Samus's shield, he doesn't have foolproof pressure, but he's fine.

Samus pressure? Um... ftilt can be shield grabbed, utilt can be shield grabbed (possibly not if you hit with the part that's -10 on shield, as an 11 frame grab is only right close to Link, so then you can spotdodge it?), dtilt can DEFINITELY be shield-grabbed... I don't know about her aerials on shield, I'd assume they're kind of like Link but better [edit: read frame data guide, definitely safer], but she doesn't have grab pressure on landing which means she can't apply a lot of pressure to force a reaction from Link (Link's grab is 7 frames faster (11 vs 18), enough to matter I think). I don't know the perfect frame data for Link's up+B OoS, my understanding is that it is 1 frame + the startup of up+B if done perfectly (jumpsquat frame, cancelled with up+B), so Link has a 9-frame OoS option - going off the frame data thread for Samus, that means Link can up+B OoS (and if done properly, Samus just gets hit) or grab Samus's jab if he's gutsy (and what do you lose if you try? You either got hit by the arm cannon or you mistimed up+B while she wavedashed away (up+B hitting from frames 8-41 means that if she spotdodges it, she'll get hit). You can also grab the jab if she doesn't go for arm cannon (or if wavedash away somehow outranges his grab... I don't know but if it does that sucks -_-), which is a 50-50 game with better payoff for Link than Samus... (I don't think very highly of jab pressure against Link, but I play a gutsy Link who's not afraid to try to up+B someone if I think they'll wavedash instead of shine my shield as Fox... after all, it takes guts to be amazing...). You CAN jab pressure, and if you have a read on their habits for OoS options you can get arm cannons and force whiffed up+b (if you know they are a bit slow), but it's a risky game for sure.

So both characters have perfectly fine (but not unchallengable by any means) shields for this MU, yet Link can shieldgrab a lot more stuff that's generally useful than Samus can, and his jab pressure seems better. Now for combos.

Combos in this MU are hard-hitting. Link is a fast-faller - not Fox/Falco fast, but he's combo food for Samus. I don't know how good her combo ability is, but I'm pretty sure it's more than enough to quickly lay on some hurt and follow with a missile or more damage. However, I do know Link combos Samus hard - uair juggles are basically impossible for her to beat out with any aerial (I don't think down+B gets there either - might trade???), so Link wants her above him often. Link can start things with any of his 5 aerials - uair and dair pop up to start chasing (at low percents a reset), nair can be followed with rang into more stuff, same as fair and bair, and these can also just be followed with a nair or uair if Samus DIs up. My goal whenever I play Samus is to zone and get her above me - if I can get her above me, I want to uair her like crazy, and use bombs and boomerangs to limit her landing options to gutsy stuff like airdodging or using a double jump (which once it's gone, it's gone) and my sword. So uh, Link definitely combos Samus, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say she can combo us almost as hard, but we just juggle better, sorry.

As for positioning - neither likes a corner, but we can both escape - upward with good nairs and reasonable dairs, you can wavedash and our roll could be worse, ways to escape shield pressure, projectiles to jump offstage and use (or stay onstage and use) - you want them in a corner to limit movement options, but you are rarely, if ever, just going to knock them off and KO them (unlike, say, Falco, where that can happen).

I've neglected one facet of this MU - CCing. Link's CC - meh. You can CC dsmash and pop her up if hit with a high aerial, but it's not that great... CC grab is also ok, but it never struck me as spectacular (good against Marth, and maybe it's much better than I thought against Samus, but I haven't seen it). CCing Samus dsmash past low percents is also hard and usually you just get knocked down. Against Link, Samus can CC nair, sort of fair (spaced it helps but doesn't do much), and absolutely CC bair (he can DJ, maybe to avoid a dsmash??? don't think that works), but there's a problem - Link can just throw a bunch of stuff to mess up Samus's CC game and take her out of easy CC percents, then use fair (which is harder to CC than nair) to break CCs (while it's about the speed of the knee, so not that fast, it's also safe on shields, like the knee). And CCing Link's fsmash means beyond the low end of percents that you just managed to get hit by both hits for about 30% - CC bait as I mentioned earlier. Thus, even though Samus has a strong CC game, against Link's superior projectiles I don't think it's helpful at all (and also why Link should generally camp Samus at low percents), and you absolutely don't want to CC a Link fsmash at 40%, since you'll just eat the other half for big damage.

So CCing is not that useful and Link can juggle like crazy while the combo game is certainly good for Link (and as I said in there, I don't know about Samus, so I'll just assume hers is strong like Link's). Now for spacing itself.

So Link doesn't like trades much in this MU - it could be a worse MU for trades (Falco... lol) but trading nairs benefits Samus in damage output [it's anywhere from 14% vs 5% to 7% vs 9% if they trade, and usually it'll be either fresh trade (14% vs 9%) or late trade (7% vs 5%) so yeah]. I'm pretty sure whomever is nairing from above and/or nairing the opponent's backside wins the nair battle, but Link's uair wrecks Samus's nair if he's below her. Samus uair beats out Link nair too, but it's not nearly as devastating. I think Link fair can be carefully spaced to outrange Samus fair, but the spacing is really tight on that. Link bair has like no range... he doesn't want to be facing backwards while almost parallel to Samus in the air, basically ever, unless the Link decides the disrespectful bair punish to a missed screw attack is a good idea XD. Samus bair outranges or goes even with Link fair (I'm almost positive on this one), but no intangibility means Link could try to fair the foot (lol) or go over it and hit with the bottom part of his fair (I saw this once, not sure if it was actually this but the spacing is super tight regardless). If they do bair/fair at the same time though, Link wants to avoid the bair and then hold towards her as much as possible since his fair is not that fast (same speed as the knee, more or less). So Link is generally somewhat outranged in the air, his fair can keep up and his nair is okayish, but his uair makes him getting below Samus AWESOME... and his high fall speed lets him get there faster if Samus over-extends.

On the ground, things are...interesting. Link's dtilt is decent range but slow, but it's only -11 on shield, which is pretty good since Samus can't grab it or wavedash OoS to punish - like I said before, it's not Marth's, but it's ok. Fsmash outranges most of Samus's stuff (or it should...) but it's a little slow. Samus ftilt and utilt should outrange most of Link's other stuff (maybe dtilt and dsmash, almost certainly jab, definitely utilt), and her fsmash and dsmash are similar and also have good range, but Link's shield means any whiffed tilts are a free shield grab unless you do some sort of weird wavedash crossup tilt at point-blank (or hit the back of his shield) as discussed earlier. So Samus can theoretically zone Link with aerials and tilts, but Link has a very good shield that kinda shuts this down some. The upside is that Link's wavedash is trash and Samus's is good, so sliding around with that helps a lot for fakeouts... but that's why Link is throwing things at you - Samus won't hold still to let him space.

Link's best grab in the MU is easily uthrow - when you are grabbed, immediately start mashing and figuring out a way to get back down if Link gets a uthrow off, since you'll eat uairs if you don't get down quickly. Dthrow -> utilt works at high enough percents (mash nair at low ones) and dthrow -> up+b is guaranteed at some point (or maybe Samus is special, but that combo KOs spacies anywhere after like 125%, and at like 135% it's pretty easy - I know Marth is susceptible to this around like 70%, so Samus being floaty helps here). Samus has a slow grab, but punishing various things is fine... y'all know what to do more than I do, but I don't think Samus gets much more than a dthrow to nair and scraping together what she can from that, or kicking us off the ledge. Putting us above you may seem appealing at first, but dair is terrifying and we can DJ bomb to get space (or boomerang, or just DJ away with pretty solid aerial mobility).

So Link being airborne facing backwards is terrible, but keeping Samus above him is sweet. The ranges on the grounded primary options are comparable, but Link's good shield should make Samus wary of hers. Jab pressure was discussed above. Link potentially gets a ton off of grab if he can juggle Samus (which isn't that hard in my opinion) and I think gets a free spin attack off dthrow at some point. Samus grabs... dunno, but I can't imagine you'll get 40% off a grab, which isn't an unrealistic possibility for Link (uthrow and a uair and another uair or nair).

Because of all this, I think 55-45 is somewhat generous (conservative but still an ok number), but I think 60-40 is more accurate. 65-35 may be a good number, and I think 70-30 is a little high. If Samus can stay in close-quarters and CC very carefully (mainly projectiles to stay on offense and try to sneak a dsmash), she can keep up and win. But she gets outcamped, has at best equal KO options (I think inferior), and gimping Link isn't a very easy proposition for her, while her own recovery can be punished with decent damage as she comes back, if not an outright gimp. She also has a tricky time getting down from juggles (has to maneuver pretty well) and Link has decent tools to set that up (including his already good projectiles and his grab), while Link probably isn't combo'd any harder. So better damage racking, camping, and KOing while not being gimped easily and having an about equal approach game is a very compact way of describing this MU - and that's a bad look for anyone facing them down.

P.S: Feel free to disagree and tell me this or that is wrong, stupid, etc, as long as you explain why - I am interested in learning more, as I put out basically all I know about it as of now. I would much rather see accurate info in here at my expense than false info sit here because no one cared enough to say otherwise. But don't insult me unless you explain where I thought wrong - that's counterproductive and helps no one.
 
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C-SAF

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Wow thanx for posting this, this is a lot of great info I will try to put into practice. My only question is how does stage affect the matchup then? I always ban FD against link (I generally like platforms though), but it sounds like dreamland might be the better ban if the link is committed to camping.
 

Avro-Arrow

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Can anyone comment on the link matchup for samus? The best player in Ottawa's name is SAUS, a link main, and his wall of projectiles is extremely frustrating. I've heard this is a bad matchup is the past, but if there are any strategies against it I'd love to hear them. Right now im thinking the matchup is like 70-30 for link, but just an opinion of course.
Hey dude, I have a ton of MU experience with this one against my brother, who mains Link. It's close to even, at least in my experience. Unfortunately, I don't know how I'd describe what to do, with me it's more just intuition I guess.
 
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Avro-Arrow

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After reading this thread, I realized that the Link-Samus matchup actually kind of does suck for samus.
 

Thor

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After reading this thread, I realized that the Link-Samus matchup actually kind of does suck for samus.
If your brother doesn't use projectiles well, the MU is even or 55-45 Link, and that's ONLY if they're good at avoiding CC dsmash.

A Link with a bad projectile game and bad anti-CC game should get bodied by any reasonably good Samus. Not saying your brother is bad at those things by any means, but it may be the case that he could be doing some stuff better (or if you edgeguard him a lot, I may have just undercredited Samus's gimping powers in the MU or something).

Wow thanx for posting this, this is a lot of great info I will try to put into practice. My only question is how does stage affect the matchup then? I always ban FD against link (I generally like platforms though), but it sounds like dreamland might be the better ban if the link is committed to camping.
Positioning and playstyle are key in the MU for stages. First, I would guess FoD is EASILY your best bet - close horizontal blastlines means that while up+B is a threat, your best KO tools (Fsmash, dsmash, charge shot, super missiles if I understand Samus) are never too far away from blastzones, while you have a nice high ceiling to increase your surviviability a bit - plats can nullify this some but that's true everywhere. [I ban this stage against Samus every time, for the record.]

If the Link likes aggression, DL is still awesome for Samus for high blastlines, and if you're good at landing KO moves near the edges, then you cut his survivability short relative to yours. But with a strong projectile game, Link should probably not struggle TOO hard to gain some footing on stage and attempt to push back - it's a good time for aggression for sure (again, the cornering thing I mentioned), but I don't think Link should be getting hit by kill moves that often on the ledge on DL if he's playing smart (although not sweetspotting a recovery by a lot opens him up to a pretty free fsmash). I think bair is super important on DL for KOs for Samus - just a guess but I think it's the best way to poke a Link that's platform camping and it's strong enough to KO if I understand the move.

One thing to keep in mind on DL - while Link has more room to run and camp, true, (And he's slow, but not that slow), his projectiles cover less of the stage as a whole, and while missiles are mainly only horizontal, they DO cover more distance - so if Link is platform camping only one half of the map, run to the other side of DL and go temporarily berserk with missiles [then react to whatever he's doing of course] - he'll either go to top platform or approach and camp without a platform (or straight-up approach) because rang and bombs don't go as far as missiles. If he starts shielding, you CAN approach, or you can poke with missiles and get some charge shot charge in (since he's not that slow, but slow enough that you can definitely get some charge and not be punished). Pokémon Stadium this is sort of true if you use the very far edge of the PS platform, although Link can do shenanigans like jumping way off his platform to chuck a bomb and djing back to the platform for safety or whatever (though you can use the platform as a kind of shield as well). I like PS sometimes, but Link must be very mobile camping on either stage, as he can't contest with damage missiles, only moot them out, and that gets him nothing, whereas on FD, Battlefield, and Yoshi's (and sort of FoD, but less so since the platform heights usually seem less desirable), he can kind of stand still and jump in place without actively camping while just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what hits.

I think FD is probably ban-worthy if you don't like the stage - while Link loses platforms, Samus loses standard missile cancels, and you can't use platforms to temporariliy avoid projectiles (if you can jump over a bomb/rang, land on a platform, shield rang/bomb, and shield drop (and even throw in a missile if you have a lot of tech skill), I think it probably makes approaching somewhat easier than I made it out to be). I think Link still walls well, and if you have a good platform game for weaving around projectiles, saying no to FD probably helps. Link being able to take center stage and outcamp you without moving that much (or else you have to approach with missiles and stuff, and Link's shield is, as mentioned before, not bad, plus some of his attacks have good range) is also a negative of this stage.

I would guess Barbie is probably better suited for this question - on the Link side I like Pokémon only because I'm not too afraid of a stream of missiles and I like super low killzones, but I don't know if that's ban-worthy - and I've walled on FD with good success, so FD doesn't seem like a bad choice for a ban. Also FD has a much lower ceiling, so the KO percents I gave for Link are even lower.

EDIT: Realized I left this out earlier, but jab pressure on the BACK of Link's shield (and also the back of Samus's shield for the Link side of things) is MUCH better than on the front side, at least in my opinion, since up+B hits later on the back side (I think frame 11??), and you can't be shieldgrabbed, so Link either has to use his slow jumpsquat (I believe it's 6 frames, same as Falco's (?)) and do a bair or nair (which is at least like 10 frames, if frame perfect), or else jump/roll/hope his up+b timing is really good, since I think Samus is able to shield everyone of these options if she "buffers" shield after a jab and is jabbing with good spacing [I might be wrong, but I believe if you are holding shield down during any move, it will come out frame 1 that it can]. Essentially, the guessing game is much more favorable to both characters if they have jab pressure on the backside of the shield (similar to how Fox players like M2K and Mango will often jab the back of Hbox's shield, but not often do they use 3 or 4 jabs on the front side). Seems worth noting, so I just added it here.

DOUBLE EDIT: Added a section on spacing aerials and grounded stuff (not as well done I think, but it's okayish and might be useful to some) and also there's a bit in there about grab punishes (getting grabbed is very bad for you if the Link can uair well - I don't know about the other side, I'd imagine dthrow might combo to charge shot but I don't think most punishes are that devastating).
 
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Avro-Arrow

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If your brother doesn't use projectiles well, the MU is even or 55-45 Link, and that's ONLY if they're good at avoiding CC dsmash.

A Link with a bad projectile game and bad anti-CC game should get bodied by any reasonably good Samus. Not saying your brother is bad at those things by any means, but it may be the case that he could be doing some stuff better (or if you edgeguard him a lot, I may have just undercredited Samus's gimping powers in the MU or something).



Positioning and playstyle are key in the MU for stages. First, I would guess FoD is EASILY your best bet - close horizontal blastlines means that while up+B is a threat, your best KO tools (Fsmash, dsmash, charge shot, super missiles if I understand Samus) are never too far away from blastzones, while you have a nice high ceiling to increase your surviviability a bit - plats can nullify this some but that's true everywhere. [I ban this stage against Samus every time, for the record.]

If the Link likes aggression, DL is still awesome for Samus for high blastlines, and if you're good at landing KO moves near the edges, then you cut his survivability short relative to yours. But with a strong projectile game, Link should probably not struggle TOO hard to gain some footing on stage and attempt to push back - it's a good time for aggression for sure (again, the cornering thing I mentioned), but I don't think Link should be getting hit by kill moves that often on the ledge on DL if he's playing smart (although not sweetspotting a recovery by a lot opens him up to a pretty free fsmash). I think bair is super important on DL for KOs for Samus - just a guess but I think it's the best way to poke a Link that's platform camping and it's strong enough to KO if I understand the move.

One thing to keep in mind on DL - while Link has more room to run and camp, true, (And he's slow, but not that slow), his projectiles cover less of the stage as a whole, and while missiles are mainly only horizontal, they DO cover more distance - so if Link is platform camping only one half of the map, run to the other side of DL and go temporarily berserk with missiles [then react to whatever he's doing of course] - he'll either go to top platform or approach and camp without a platform (or straight-up approach) because rang and bombs don't go as far as missiles. If he starts shielding, you CAN approach, or you can poke with missiles and get some charge shot charge in (since he's not that slow, but slow enough that you can definitely get some charge and not be punished). Pokémon Stadium this is sort of true if you use the very far edge of the PS platform, although Link can do shenanigans like jumping way off his platform to chuck a bomb and djing back to the platform for safety or whatever (though you can use the platform as a kind of shield as well). I like PS sometimes, but Link must be very mobile camping on either stage, as he can't contest with damage missiles, only moot them out, and that gets him nothing, whereas on FD, Battlefield, and Yoshi's (and sort of FoD, but less so since the platform heights usually seem less desirable), he can kind of stand still and jump in place without actively camping while just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what hits.

I think FD is probably ban-worthy if you don't like the stage - while Link loses platforms, Samus loses standard missile cancels, and you can't use platforms to temporariliy avoid projectiles (if you can jump over a bomb/rang, land on a platform, shield rang/bomb, and shield drop (and even throw in a missile if you have a lot of tech skill), I think it probably makes approaching somewhat easier than I made it out to be). I think Link still walls well, and if you have a good platform game for weaving around projectiles, saying no to FD probably helps. Link being able to take center stage and outcamp you without moving that much (or else you have to approach with missiles and stuff, and Link's shield is, as mentioned before, not bad, plus some of his attacks have good range) is also a negative of this stage.

I would guess Barbie is probably better suited for this question - on the Link side I like Pokémon only because I'm not too afraid of a stream of missiles and I like super low killzones, but I don't know if that's ban-worthy - and I've walled on FD with good success, so FD doesn't seem like a bad choice for a ban. Also FD has a much lower ceiling, so the KO percents I gave for Link are even lower.

EDIT: Realized I left this out earlier, but jab pressure on the BACK of Link's shield (and also the back of Samus's shield for the Link side of things) is MUCH better than on the front side, at least in my opinion, since up+B hits later on the back side (I think frame 11??), and you can't be shieldgrabbed, so Link either has to use his slow jumpsquat (I believe it's 6 frames, same as Falco's (?)) and do a bair or nair (which is at least like 10 frames, if frame perfect), or else jump/roll/hope his up+b timing is really good, since I think Samus is able to shield everyone of these options if she "buffers" shield after a jab and is jabbing with good spacing [I might be wrong, but I believe if you are holding shield down during any move, it will come out frame 1 that it can]. Essentially, the guessing game is much more favorable to both characters if they have jab pressure on the backside of the shield (similar to how Fox players like M2K and Mango will often jab the back of Hbox's shield, but not often do they use 3 or 4 jabs on the front side). Seems worth noting, so I just added it here.

DOUBLE EDIT: Added a section on spacing aerials and grounded stuff (not as well done I think, but it's okayish and might be useful to some) and also there's a bit in there about grab punishes (getting grabbed is very bad for you if the Link can uair well - I don't know about the other side, I'd imagine dthrow might combo to charge shot but I don't think most punishes are that devastating).
He is rather good at avoiding my CC counters, for sure; in fact, I there are very little opportunities for me to ever do so. And I find Samus edgeguards Link nicely: a high recovery is an easy punish with a missile or nair and a low recovery is still not so safe for Link, am I right? He seems to get caught by my missiles as I land I like to fire one, LOL. Plus, a lot of our friendlies are played on FD, which probably skewed my understanding of the MU a little bit.
 

C-SAF

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@ Thor Thor I always try to keep shield pressure in the back of shield for the reason you mention, I think that is good advice in all matchups. FOD is easily my favourite stage, I usually go 50-50 counter picking between there and dreamland. I'll probably stick to FOD more after reading your summary. Great post again man, thanx for sharing all that. I'll definitely be referring back to it next time I run into a tough Link.

Hey dude, I have a ton of MU experience with this one against my brother, who mains Link. It's close to even, at least in my experience. Unfortunately, I don't know how I'd describe what to do, with me it's more just intuition I guess.
Ur the same Avro from the OttawaU smashfest right? I think I might actually played your brother, is his tag chrome?
 

Thor

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Avro-Arrow said:
He is rather good at avoiding my CC counters, for sure; in fact, I there are very little opportunities for me to ever do so. And I find Samus edgeguards Link nicely: a high recovery is an easy punish with a missile or nair and a low recovery is still not so safe for Link, am I right? He seems to get caught by my missiles as I land I like to fire one, LOL. Plus, a lot of our friendlies are played on FD, which probably skewed my understanding of the MU a little bit.
High recovery is pretty bad in this MU yes [unless he can make it back via DJ and airdodge - then it's doable for sure, and a mixup I actually rather like, since if it looks bad, fastfall DJ and recover lower], but grapple lets Link go low (I'm not sure if you can morph ball bomb to somehow screw this up, but I think at worse he has to pull up early and get hit) and so does just falling below the ledge.

Link's got a few reasonably good options below the ledge against Samus. You can up+B for vertical sweetspot, which can often be used to avoid whatever (missiles for sure, I think maybe ftilt), and if I'm not mistaken, Samus can't utilt or dsmash him without getting poked if Link is facing forward (or spacing is very tight - and if Link is going for the horizontal sweetspot (i.e., max range horizontally), it's even harder). However, this is prime dair territory, morph ball shenanigans perhaps, and it can also be a nair from above or dair if you went offstage for it. @ Litt Litt is utilt/ftilt landable on Link when he's spacing up+b if Samus has good timing or not? I don't know, but I think if it is, it's very tough and a good Link can still mix it up to try to fade away to avoid utilt or into the stage to hit with it. [I don't have a person in my dorm who plays Samus or a person who likes testing things, or I'd go ask them to help me check something quick and get back with a solid answer - sorry.]

Link can also go slightly above the stage (like with his head, still grabs ledge), to better poke with his up+B - this is something I do a lot, as it makes it beat out ftilt (it seems to me - she gets hit) and utilt usually, and you have to have a low missile to catch this (which his up+B may do enough damage on the last hit to detonate safely??? I don't know, but that's the hit we need to break bombs open, so it's possible this could work too...). Still vulnerable to dair and probably eats a fully charged charge shot (bleh...).

Link can also up+B so that he lands onstage, but basically immediately after finishing up+B - loses to missile (and charge shot!) but I think basically always beats out ftilt and utilt [this is started while below the stage lip], and is basically impervious to dair (especially with good SDI) - a good mixup in my opinion, bad if it's the only option of course (since you get a free charge shot every time!).

Missiles to force him low and trying to dair him or space a tilt (I don't know how much this works, if at all... that's why I asked Barbie) would seem the best option usually, but if you whiff dair Link gets back for free (and if Link is good at meteor cancelling you actually will get hit for landing dair - kind of silly but it's the rules of the game), and if you misspaced a tilt Link clips you with his up+B and is back for free, so while Link's options aren't great or anything, I think they are good enough that Link can make it back even against a very proficient Samus... eh... at least half the time? I say this guessing that if she's perfect, since some of these basically have to be read or guessed, since Link's fastfall is so fast he can look ready to do early up+B but fastfall and like 5 frames later go for sweetspot up+B (or whatever it is), or tether and tether at a place where he almost grabs ledge, "refreshing" all his options except tether.

Incidentally, Barbie, can Link dtilt a sweetspot up+B from Samus??? I don't know, but if he can, that's extremely hilarious-looking edgeguarding, and if you miss the meteor cancel, you die, while if you cancel to early and he manages to space it to not get hit, that's a free up+B or fsmash back offstage. And if he whiffs it and hits the tip (no meteor), he can still go for a uair, nair (if low enough), or even dair (hardest one, probably only works on spacies but if you don't nair out because not expecting it, good luck...). This would also make Link's edgeguard options on Samus even better if he can hit her back out after using tether and has good spacing with it [something I didn't note because Link's dtilt is not an edgeguard I use frequently].

Dunno if FD skewed your understanding of things or not - it's not a great stage for Samus unless your brother plays a Link that doesn't use a lot of projectiles, at which point possibly? Projectiles are most important on FD of all the stages, with DL being second and PS being third (being good at them on PS makes it a good Link CP because of the low ceiling and moderate side blast zones favoring him, plus space to camp well - but most Samus mains don't CP this which is why it's third, not first). Now, that's not to say they aren't a vital facet of the MU for Link to win on all stages (they are in my opinion), but if he's aggressive on FD, he's giving up easily his biggest tool, and since he can't platform camp to avoid low missiles (i.e., use plats to avoid missiles while readying projectiles), missiles become better (though Link can still outpace missile production, but if he's not (because not many projectiles) and not good at clanking them, missiles go from being rather bad to really really good, since Link being a little slow means he has to work harder to approach without a tool to lock you down since he's also dodging explosive projectiles that set him back if he's hit). I have not seen any footage of you playing your brother, so this might not be the case - just a guess.

On the plus side, if you like fighting Link on FD, you can ban Pokémon and then go to what I think is possibly the second-worst stage for the MU on the Samus side while being comfortable on that stage. And being comfortable on your opponent's CP is a HUGE plus. (YS might be worse, since you die at like 70% to dair [or something really early like that], and still can die off the sides to up+B, even as you kill Link earlier... and he can take center stage while you are offstage and start walling, even though you have a platform to help avoid some of his stuff. I think BF is basically a slightly bigger YS and thus can sort of benefit ).
 

Litt

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High recovery is pretty bad in this MU yes [unless he can make it back via DJ and airdodge - then it's doable for sure, and a mixup I actually rather like, since if it looks bad, fastfall DJ and recover lower], but grapple lets Link go low (I'm not sure if you can morph ball bomb to somehow screw this up, but I think at worse he has to pull up early and get hit) and so does just falling below the ledge.

Link's got a few reasonably good options below the ledge against Samus. You can up+B for vertical sweetspot, which can often be used to avoid whatever (missiles for sure, I think maybe ftilt), and if I'm not mistaken, Samus can't utilt or dsmash him without getting poked if Link is facing forward (or spacing is very tight - and if Link is going for the horizontal sweetspot (i.e., max range horizontally), it's even harder). However, this is prime dair territory, morph ball shenanigans perhaps, and it can also be a nair from above or dair if you went offstage for it. @ Litt Litt is utilt/ftilt landable on Link when he's spacing up+b if Samus has good timing or not? I don't know, but I think if it is, it's very tough and a good Link can still mix it up to try to fade away to avoid utilt or into the stage to hit with it. [I don't have a person in my dorm who plays Samus or a person who likes testing things, or I'd go ask them to help me check something quick and get back with a solid answer - sorry.]

Link can also go slightly above the stage (like with his head, still grabs ledge), to better poke with his up+B - this is something I do a lot, as it makes it beat out ftilt (it seems to me - she gets hit) and utilt usually, and you have to have a low missile to catch this (which his up+B may do enough damage on the last hit to detonate safely??? I don't know, but that's the hit we need to break bombs open, so it's possible this could work too...). Still vulnerable to dair and probably eats a fully charged charge shot (bleh...).

Link can also up+B so that he lands onstage, but basically immediately after finishing up+B - loses to missile (and charge shot!) but I think basically always beats out ftilt and utilt [this is started while below the stage lip], and is basically impervious to dair (especially with good SDI) - a good mixup in my opinion, bad if it's the only option of course (since you get a free charge shot every time!).

Missiles to force him low and trying to dair him or space a tilt (I don't know how much this works, if at all... that's why I asked Barbie) would seem the best option usually, but if you whiff dair Link gets back for free (and if Link is good at meteor cancelling you actually will get hit for landing dair - kind of silly but it's the rules of the game), and if you misspaced a tilt Link clips you with his up+B and is back for free, so while Link's options aren't great or anything, I think they are good enough that Link can make it back even against a very proficient Samus... eh... at least half the time? I say this guessing that if she's perfect, since some of these basically have to be read or guessed, since Link's fastfall is so fast he can look ready to do early up+B but fastfall and like 5 frames later go for sweetspot up+B (or whatever it is), or tether and tether at a place where he almost grabs ledge, "refreshing" all his options except tether.

Incidentally, Barbie, can Link dtilt a sweetspot up+B from Samus??? I don't know, but if he can, that's extremely hilarious-looking edgeguarding, and if you miss the meteor cancel, you die, while if you cancel to early and he manages to space it to not get hit, that's a free up+B or fsmash back offstage. And if he whiffs it and hits the tip (no meteor), he can still go for a uair, nair (if low enough), or even dair (hardest one, probably only works on spacies but if you don't nair out because not expecting it, good luck...). This would also make Link's edgeguard options on Samus even better if he can hit her back out after using tether and has good spacing with it [something I didn't note because Link's dtilt is not an edgeguard I use frequently].

Dunno if FD skewed your understanding of things or not - it's not a great stage for Samus unless your brother plays a Link that doesn't use a lot of projectiles, at which point possibly? Projectiles are most important on FD of all the stages, with DL being second and PS being third (being good at them on PS makes it a good Link CP because of the low ceiling and moderate side blast zones favoring him, plus space to camp well - but most Samus mains don't CP this which is why it's third, not first). Now, that's not to say they aren't a vital facet of the MU for Link to win on all stages (they are in my opinion), but if he's aggressive on FD, he's giving up easily his biggest tool, and since he can't platform camp to avoid low missiles (i.e., use plats to avoid missiles while readying projectiles), missiles become better (though Link can still outpace missile production, but if he's not (because not many projectiles) and not good at clanking them, missiles go from being rather bad to really really good, since Link being a little slow means he has to work harder to approach without a tool to lock you down since he's also dodging explosive projectiles that set him back if he's hit). I have not seen any footage of you playing your brother, so this might not be the case - just a guess.

On the plus side, if you like fighting Link on FD, you can ban Pokémon and then go to what I think is possibly the second-worst stage for the MU on the Samus side while being comfortable on that stage. And being comfortable on your opponent's CP is a HUGE plus. (YS might be worse, since you die at like 70% to dair [or something really early like that], and still can die off the sides to up+B, even as you kill Link earlier... and he can take center stage while you are offstage and start walling, even though you have a platform to help avoid some of his stuff. I think BF is basically a slightly bigger YS and thus can sort of benefit ).
@Barbie is utilt/ftilt landable on Link when he's spacing up+b if Samus has good timing or not? Ftilt if they go below the sweet spot, but will not work and end up with you getting hit if they sweet spot or go above the stage and fade back. Up tilt often gets hit out of its animation from links up b, but really one of the most effective ways to deal with links is to just lay a bomb off stage when they are trying to recover, which make them have to avoid the bomb while recovering and you can just drop down with a nair, it really is the simplest option, but it is also the most effective against inexperienced link players.




Link can also go slightly above the stage (like with his head, still grabs ledge), to better poke with his up+B - this is something I do a lot, as it makes it beat out ftilt (it seems to me - she gets hit) and utilt usually, and you have to have a low missile to catch this (which his up+B may do enough damage on the last hit to detonate safely??? Yes the hit box of links up b would beat out a missile



Incidentally, Barbie, can Link dtilt a sweetspot up+B from Samus???

A perfect sweet spot, no. But anything else you will get it, it’s a pretty slow move and I wouldn’t recommend it unless you were trying to style and were up, most good samuses still know all the old tricks… we are talking about the pros here ;p.


Projectiles are most important on FD of all the stages, with DL being second and PS being third (being good at them on PS makes it a good Link CP because of the low ceiling and moderate side blast zones favoring him, plus space to camp well - but most Samus mains don't CP this which is why it's third, not first). Da Faq did I just read? If you take a samus to PS you will get your ass missile camped for 3 straight 8 minute matches, that is the one stage besides yoshis that links could lose to samus in a projectile war….

(YS might be worse, since you die at like 70% to dair [or something really early like that], and still can die off the sides to up+B, even as you kill Link earlier….. You land a random dair on any good player I will personally sponsor you :/…. That move is a huge commitment for link and if he misses… he is going to get punished… the better the samus main the harder the punish…
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Ottawa
@ Thor Thor I always try to keep shield pressure in the back of shield for the reason you mention, I think that is good advice in all matchups. FOD is easily my favourite stage, I usually go 50-50 counter picking between there and dreamland. I'll probably stick to FOD more after reading your summary. Great post again man, thanx for sharing all that. I'll definitely be referring back to it next time I run into a tough Link.



Ur the same Avro from the OttawaU smashfest right? I think I might actually played your brother, is his tag chrome?
It was me you played. But yes, Chrome's my brother.
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
Location
Ottawa
@Barbie is utilt/ftilt landable on Link when he's spacing up+b if Samus has good timing or not? Ftilt if they go below the sweet spot, but will not work and end up with you getting hit if they sweet spot or go above the stage and fade back. Up tilt often gets hit out of its animation from links up b, but really one of the most effective ways to deal with links is to just lay a bomb off stage when they are trying to recover, which make them have to avoid the bomb while recovering and you can just drop down with a nair, it really is the simplest option, but it is also the most effective against inexperienced link players.




Link can also go slightly above the stage (like with his head, still grabs ledge), to better poke with his up+B - this is something I do a lot, as it makes it beat out ftilt (it seems to me - she gets hit) and utilt usually, and you have to have a low missile to catch this (which his up+B may do enough damage on the last hit to detonate safely??? Yes the hit box of links up b would beat out a missile



Incidentally, Barbie, can Link dtilt a sweetspot up+B from Samus???

A perfect sweet spot, no. But anything else you will get it, it’s a pretty slow move and I wouldn’t recommend it unless you were trying to style and were up, most good samuses still know all the old tricks… we are talking about the pros here ;p.


Projectiles are most important on FD of all the stages, with DL being second and PS being third (being good at them on PS makes it a good Link CP because of the low ceiling and moderate side blast zones favoring him, plus space to camp well - but most Samus mains don't CP this which is why it's third, not first). Da Faq did I just read? If you take a samus to PS you will get your *** missile camped for 3 straight 8 minute matches, that is the one stage besides yoshis that links could lose to samus in a projectile war….

(YS might be worse, since you die at like 70% to dair [or something really early like that], and still can die off the sides to up+B, even as you kill Link earlier….. You land a random dair on any good player I will personally sponsor you :/…. That move is a huge commitment for link and if he misses… he is going to get punished… the better the samus main the harder the punish…
^ This. Lol, that about sums it up. :p
 
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