Can 3 Smash Games Coexist in a Tournament Setting?

[Remzi]

Hey all,

This has been a pretty large area of concern for me lately as I've been thinking of the State of Smash heading as we head towards the release of Smash 4. Although I've always been a fan of Brawl, lets just say that for all intents and purposes, the local tournament scene for Brawl is all but dead. So with one game out of the picture, can Melee, PM, and Sm4sh all thrive together?

One of the biggest problems the Smash Community has faced since its inception has been that tournaments tend to run far too long. I'm not talking about 2-3 day majors here, I'm talking about 1 day locals and regionals. These types of tournaments have ALWAYS struggled to finish events for two games in a timely manner. Much more notably so when you throw two more events into the mix with doubles (which most tournaments do). I can state almost as a fact, that it will be impossible to run singles AND doubles for Melee, PM, and Sm4sh in a single day event (in which each game is drawing 30+ players). Although running 2 games at locals has always been a struggle, it hasn't been a showstopper to the scene. But I don't think any region has ever had thriving scenes for Melee, PM, and Brawl simultaneously in the past. Almost as soon as PM became "mainstream" in the tournament scene, Brawl died. I don't think this is a coincidence, I think it died from necessity. Local scene's couldn't handle three games at the same time, and so Brawl slowly became irrelevant.

So whats the solution? Do regions that have a scene for all 3 games have to drop doubles? Should doubles only be run for one game (probably Sm4sh)? Do we segregate the games and run events for only one or two at a time? Or will one of the three games kind of fall of the way Brawl did?

I'm interested in hearing opinions and possible solutions.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

So, let me get this straight, you're worried having to drop doubles?

Humanity has gone to space, there's no NEED TO WORRY about dropping doubles.

 

[Dracometeor]

I think project M will fall away. Hardcore melee fans will stick with melee whereas the the players that wanted a new game/roster to play (project M) will head towards Sm4sh. Even if they eventually end up making a project M version of Sm4sh which replaces sm4sh. Hopefully Sm4sh is good enough though

 

[EPsilon933]

Players are gradually caring less about doubles. Drop it and all 3 Smash games can run 1v1 only under the same roof

 

[D-idara]

In a perfect world, the Smash community would drop 64, Melee and Brawl and only play Project M and Smash4, but that won't ever happen.

 

[staindgrey]

Melee is steadily losing its footing. It's the same game now it was a decade ago. Eventually-- I don't know when, but eventually-- the tournament scene for it will fade.

Likewise, Project M's limited fanbase due to the necessity of soft-modding your Wii will inevitably doom it. I think the excitement of Smash 4 will kill its organized competitive scene, even though there will be a persistent following afterward because it's community-run.

Brawl's already kinda sorta dead. So whatever. And the N64 version only lives on in people still playing it competitively, which is now a very small few.

I predict that by this time next year, the only tournament scenes that will matter will be Smash 4 and Melee, with Project M becoming more of a friendly, fun thing.

Don't worry, OP; your doubles will be fine.

 

[Signia]

Melee is steadily losing its footing.

LOL have you been paying attention to the Melee scene at all lately?? Melee's bigger than it's ever been. May had the most tournament entrants at majors in history. Coming up is MLG and EVO! How can you say it's "losing its footing?"

 

[staindgrey]

LOL have you been paying attention to the Melee scene at all lately?? Melee's bigger than it's ever been. May had the most tournament entrants at majors in history. Coming up is MLG and EVO! How can you say it's "losing its footing?"

The years leading up to this one have had steadily declining numbers as well as a lack of major tournament appearances, just as any significantly older game would be expected to have, and the tournaments you referenced have inflated numbers due to the anticipation surrounding the next entry to Smash Bros.

I love Melee. Truly, I do, and I'd like nothing more than to see it live on forever. But videogames eventually die out. The only reason Melee has survived this long is due to its uniqueness and its only sequel's inability to produce any quality enhancements. After Smash 4 releases, either A) it will replace Melee in the major communities, or B) it will repeat what happened with Brawl and people will begin to lose interest in Smash Bros. as a competitive tournament scene.

Either way, the game is over thirteen years old. We can't expect it to keep this sort of steam for long.

 

[Canuckduck]

Yes.

Remember the Street Fighter series? Street Fighter 2, Street Fighter Alpha, Street Fighter 4, and even Marvel vs Capcom all coexisted together at different points in time.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The last tourney I went to here ran Melee, Melee Doubles, PM and Brawl in a day. That said, since Brawl doesn't get many entrants it doesn't take up as much time as the others. From memory I think Melee and PM got 40+ each and Brawl had 10-20, not sure about Melee Doubles.

As long as you don't run doubles for EVERYTHING, it's more than possible to make it work. Unless you're in an area where there are very committed doubles teams, if you want to run 3 games it's probably best to save Doubles for tourneys that span across multiple days.

 

[Canuckduck]

The last tourney I went to here ran Melee, Melee Doubles, PM and Brawl in a day. That said, since Brawl doesn't get many entrants it doesn't take up as much time as the others. From memory I think Melee and PM got 40+ each and Brawl had 10-20, not sure about Melee Doubles.

As long as you don't run doubles for EVERYTHING, it's more than possible to make it work. Unless you're in an area where there are very committed doubles teams, if you want to run 3 games it's probably best to save Doubles for tourneys that span across multiple days.

Brawl is like a joke competitively. The tripping, the loss of L-canceling and wavedashing, and overall slow pace completely ruined the competitive scene.

 

[RODO]

I think the Melee community is slowly coming around to PM so I could see it being only PM and 4 pretty soon.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

3 smash games? There is 4 not including project M.

Personally, I would rather play Melee than project m, but the consensus now is that money is being poured into pm, which is essentially Melee with training wheels and janky characters like Mewtwo, Ivysaur and Lucas.

I feel like all the smash games are capable of coexisting as long as the community isn't so hellbent on segregation.

 

[Canuckduck]

I think the Melee community is slowly coming around to PM so I could see it being only PM and 4 pretty soon.

Maybe Melee, PM, AND 4 could be competitive at the same time.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The years leading up to this one have had steadily declining numbers as well as a lack of major tournament appearances, just as any significantly older game would be expected to have, and the tournaments you referenced have inflated numbers due to the anticipation surrounding the next entry to Smash Bros.

I love Melee. Truly, I do, and I'd like nothing more than to see it live on forever. But videogames eventually die out. The only reason Melee has survived this long is due to its uniqueness and its only sequel's inability to produce any quality enhancements. After Smash 4 releases, either A) it will replace Melee in the major communities, or B) it will repeat what happened with Brawl and people will begin to lose interest in Smash Bros. as a competitive tournament scene.

Either way, the game is over thirteen years old. We can't expect it to keep this sort of steam for long.

A games age has nothing to do with it. People still play Street Fighter II and Tetris.

Lack of major tournaments? Kings of Cali is about to have a fourth installment, Evo happened twice, and MLG is happening this weekend.

People assumed the same thing; Brawl would replace Melee after releases, but it was actually the inverse; the game was actually modified to play like Melee and became a huge success. And with the gamecube controller revival it seems like Melee and Brawl players alike will have access to controllers again, so the major issue facing smash 4's release was eliminated.

Melee in my opinion is looking as strong as it ever has in years.

 

[D-idara]

Brawl is like a joke competitively. The tripping, the loss of L-canceling and wavedashing, and overall slow pace completely ruined the competitive scene.

Uncalled for much?

 

[Hong]

Brawl is like a joke competitively. The tripping, the loss of L-canceling and wavedashing, and overall slow pace completely ruined the competitive scene.

Don't let this start in this thread, please. >.>

 

[LiteralGrill]

Don't let this start in this thread, please. >.>

At this rate we're going to need to go back to the old policy of bans whenever anyone so much as thought of starting that kind of discussion. I'm with Hong, let's keep it civil in here.

Now, here's the interesting part. You missed a game. 3DS and Wii U will be significantly different. You might have 4 games already to deal with.

 

[Signia]

the tournaments you referenced have inflated numbers due to the anticipation surrounding the next entry to Smash Bros.

Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about. No, their numbers higher due to Melee's appearance at EVO 2013, the documentary, the Team Liquid sponsors (thanks to the documentary), and the sponsors that followed (thanks to the TL sponsors). Some Brawl players who tried PM finally came around and started playing Melee as well.

The only possible thing you can claim has been influenced by Smash 4 is maybe MLG's return (they'll likely drop Melee for Smash 4 immediately) and some of the sponsors who know how big Smash 4 is going to be and are preparing for it.

But videogames eventually die out.

Yeah, but it's not currently declining. Melee will take a hit after Smash 4 releases, since it'll lose its new player stream and a portion of its playerbase, but right now, it's huge and bigger than it's ever been. It's growing and has been growing ever since RoM 1.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

In a perfect world, the Smash community would drop 64, Melee and Brawl and only play Project M and Smash4, but that won't ever happen.

Melee is still pretty different from Project M, it's much more explored and evolved from a competitive standpoint, I'd rather throw Project M away and let Smash 4 take care of the character variety while Melee will care for the intense gameplay. Project M will be in a rather awkward spot once Smash 4 releases honestly, it won't have the full character variety or as tight and familiar gameplay as Melee, so what's the point? If Smash 4's problems are fixed there'll be no reason to bring it back imo.

 

[Ulevo]

The years leading up to this one have had steadily declining numbers as well as a lack of major tournament appearances, just as any significantly older game would be expected to have, and the tournaments you referenced have inflated numbers due to the anticipation surrounding the next entry to Smash Bros.

Uh, the tournament attendants if I'm not mistaken have been rising since Genesis 1, which was hosted in 2009. So yeah. It's been gaining steam for 5 years. I think this is wrong.

You're welcome to check the numbers to prove me wrong, but I'm confident I'm probably right about this.

I love Melee. Truly, I do, and I'd like nothing more than to see it live on forever. But videogames eventually die out. The only reason Melee has survived this long is due to its uniqueness and its only sequel's inability to produce any quality enhancements. After Smash 4 releases, either A) it will replace Melee in the major communities, or B) it will repeat what happened with Brawl and people will begin to lose interest in Smash Bros. as a competitive tournament scene.

Either way, the game is over thirteen years old. We can't expect it to keep this sort of steam for long.

I do agree with this though. Melee will always have a niche and those who love it, but I mean I know I myself will pursue other endeavours if Smash 4 flops, or if a community effort mod isn't brought in to production for Smash 4 in the event that it does flop. It will always have a tight knit community supporting it though.

 

[Egg.]

Now, here's the interesting part. You missed a game. 3DS and Wii U will be significantly different. You might have 4 games already to deal with.

I think that it's safe to say that Wii U version will be the main event while the 3DS version will just be something fun to play on the side due to a few problems with the 3DS system itself.

Nothing against the 3DS supporters, I'm definitely going to be putting a lot of hours into that game, but the circle pad will make difficult inputs much more challenging than they should be - it's really hard to keep the DS steady (at least for me) when trying to do something that requires changing directions very quickly, B-reversals being my main concern.

It's also important to note that with the 3DS version, your controller is also your console, so if your buttons start to wear out from excessive use, that's the cost of a whole new 3DS or repairs rather than just a $20-$40 controller. My 3DS has been just fine in the 3 years that I've had it, but I'm legitimately concerned that all of the use it will get from Smash Bros will wear it down.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's probably a lot easier to run 3DS tournaments than Wii U ones. Everyone has their own set-up, matches can get done quickly and promptly, as can friendlies. It's probably easier on TOs than console Smashes, with the downsides being you have to own the system/cartridge to participate. Perhaps shared handhelds could be a thing for those who don't have one ... but then how would they be good/practice, anyway?

 

[EPsilon933]

Handheld tournaments for this game? Won't there be a really lame cost of not being able to record/stream the game and not have a main stage for everyone there to watch?

 

[GrownCannoli]

My opinion doesn't matter but I think as a community you should all come together and have a feature game and have it be Smash 4. I think it would help the scene to focus on one main title.
Every other game should be a side event and not streamed unless its top 8 or something. PM should just go away for good as I feel it will be a hindrance to the new game because they will just continue patching and it will be better than smash 4.

Sadly no game will ever be better than Melee but the game was a accident to be that good anyway so I think its time to be more modern. I think we should all make smash 4 the main game to watch/stream/play. Doubles and Singles.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think that it's safe to say that Wii U version will be the main event while the 3DS version will just be something fun to play on the side due to a few problems with the 3DS system itself.

It has issues but also many advantages. Swiss Brackets, Easier Customization, and quite a bit more. They could easily be seen side by side, though yes I understand that the Wii U version might see more big tournaments.

Handheld tournaments for this game? Won't there be a really lame cost of not being able to record/stream the game and not have a main stage for everyone there to watch?

You can still stream off of a 3DS. It may not be perfect but it's certainly doable to still be able to stream matches.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Handheld tournaments for this game? Won't there be a really lame cost of not being able to record/stream the game and not have a main stage for everyone there to watch?

This could be a problem. It can be remedied if Sakurai allows a longer recording time for replays, but it still doesn't help for people who want to watch a live tournament.

Does anyone know how they handle Pokemon Tournaments with streaming?

 

[LiteralGrill]

This could be a problem. It can be remedied if Sakurai allows a longer recording time for replays, but it still doesn't help for people who want to watch a live tournament.

Does anyone know how they handle Pokemon Tournaments with streaming?

With hard modded 3DS streaming consoles. They're a tad expensive but not impossible to get. http://3dscapture.com/ is where I got mine.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Brawl controversy aside, I think Brawl is actually a bit instructive here. In the early days, Brawl completely dwarfed Melee, and Brawl tournaments were pretty much just Brawl tournaments while those who wanted to support Melee did their own thing. Over time things changed as the newness wore off, but that took several years. When smash 4 actually does drop, the demand for it will just be so large that I imagine the single game event for it will be very prominent with extra time being used for deeper pools, full doubles support, and maybe even 3DS events.

Another angle to look at it would be this one. Which kind of player will be wanting to play the new game and also continue to play, at a competitive level, an older game too in the early years of the new game? It seems likely to me that almost all players will either exclusively play the new game or will reject the new game and only play their preferred old games. It's just hard to imagine there being a lot of players who will be in the middle of that which makes multi-game as the standard, especially at local and regional level events, a bit hard to imagine at least for the first several years.