C. megalodon: extinct or alive?

[GoldShadow]

because we will be hated because we spam, trust me

QFT

This is not a chatroom.

 

[smashman90]

Does anybody else have any questions or something to say about the Megalodon?

 

[Bowser87]

There's no evidence pointing out that htey exist. The only reason some people still believe that today is that they're exceptional compared to the other animals we have today. There's as much reasons to believe other extinct animals that existed at the same time as Megalodon could still be living, yet nobody talks about them, just because they aren't as formidable.

If you want to know everything about Megalodon and why we have every reason to believe it is still extinct, Wikipedia has it all in a nutshell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon

 

[smashman90]

Well if the megalodon is like its ancestor the great white, then its body must be similar too, meaning that its body is streamlined and torpedoe shaped which would make it fast in the water so that would't stop it from catching whales. Oh, and by the way I have been on Wikipedia but it doesn't have everything on it about megs so you can't rely on just one website, you gotta look at different ones compare and contrast on info. And remember we've only discovered only a fraction of the ocean and that could mean that a megalodon as well as other sea creatures thought to be extinct could still exist.

 

[GoldShadow]

Doubtful.

 

[Omega_Star]

Wow, that is an ENORMOUS creature.

I have no idea whether it'd still be around or not. For something that big and people having not found it yet, probably not, but hey, one never does know.

Now you guys've got me looking up giant squid and coelacanth on Wikipedia

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

Quite true, if youhave ever seen "Buggin with Rud" (or something I don't know what the name of the show was), they found a believed to be extinct spider. The spider looked really cool.

 

[smashman90]

Good point, I also heard of a discovery of a venomous snake that could change skin color(just like a chameleon). So there creatures that haven't been confirmed as extinct so people really should take consideration of the possibilities. Also, since the meg is a shark it's body won't float up and so until we find a meg(dead or alive) or if we find a white meg tooth, we can't say that it exists or not. It makes me think of what else could exist too.

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

There is/ was a show called "Animal X", where they try and track down mysterious creatures, such as the Yeti, Loch Ness Monster, and the Thylacine. The thylacine was a pretty cool one, because it was an actual animal that became extinct. They never find them, but it was a pretty cool and interesting show. I don't know if it still airs though.

 

[smashman90]

I take it that this show is on either discovery or animal planet.

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

I take it that this show is on either discovery or animal planet.

Animal planet

 

[smashman90]

Do you know if they still show it?

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

No I saw it a couple times but I never saw it again so it is probably canceled. Google it

 

[Bowser87]

Well if the megalodon is like its ancestor the great white, then its body must be similar too, meaning that its body is streamlined and torpedoe shaped which would make it fast in the water so that would't stop it from catching whales. Oh, and by the way I have been on Wikipedia but it doesn't have everything on it about megs so you can't rely on just one website, you gotta look at different ones compare and contrast on info. And remember we've only discovered only a fraction of the ocean and that could mean that a megalodon as well as other sea creatures thought to be extinct could still exist.

Not too many experts actually believe the Megalodon is an ancestor to the Great White Shark today.

If you've read the part of the article I referred to, you'll know that Megalodon lived only on the coastline, because that's where their only prey was. And we'd certainly know it if Megalodons were still living along the coast. So if they still exist, they'd have to be out on the open sea or at the bottom, and have evolved significantly. And there's no reason for such a huge animal to live in the open sea, it would have nothing to eat. All shark species live along the coast line. And all the animals that live at the bottom of the sea don't have diet as large as that of the Megalodon. It wouldn't have enough food down at the bottom. So there are no reasons for the Megalodon to go there, and besides, it's unimaginable that a species would suddenly decide to live on the open sea or the ocean floor instead of the coastline.

The reasons given for it's extinction on the other hand are very logical. First, around the time Megalodon became extinct, the poles were melting, giving way to cooler seas, where whales could migrate, but not sharks. That means for a certain period of the year Megalodon would be without it's source of food. The only other predator of whales that we know of, orcas, don't have that problem because they're whales too. Also, around the same time, a new species of whales was evolving into the one I just mentionned, orcas. They were direct rivals with Megalodon. And since they preyed in packs Megalodon couldn't confront them. They could even prey on young megalodons. In short, Megalodon got owned by orcas!

 

[smashman90]

Well on the ice caps melting, that would mean that the sharks would have went down to deeper waters and then once they reach the bottom then they wouldn't have highly oxygenated waters or light so that would have slowed their metabolism, in other words it wouldn't need to eat as much as it would. We really don't know if megalodon was a coastal shark but it probably had a tendency to due to pregnant whales heading to shallow waters but that wouldn't mean that it would hunt in open ocean. And scientist don't think of the meg like a great grand dad to the great white, they more consider the meg as like a great uncle or aunt. Also, orcas were only a threat to baby megalodons not adults because the babies were small and weak until they grow up, then an adult meg would only have to fear other megs, other sea creatures bigger than it, and possibly humans. Just because orcas live in pods doesn't mean that they own megs. In short, orcas got owned by adult megs!

 

[Bowser87]

You certainly can't say megalodon owned megs, because it's the orcas who turned out to be more adapted for survival. And the reason we know, or assume megalodons lived on the coast is that all the remains we've found of them were in ancient coastlines, in fact types of coastlines that are very rare today (hint). Of course they could still go out in the open sea, but why would they go there? There's nothing to eat.

Even if orcas were only threatening to the young sharks, that's enough to endanger the whole species. Young sharks are all alone and helpless in the wild. With the emergence of a super-predator species of whales, they became extremely vulnerable, and the total population would start to decline.. Even the adults were affected, because when competing for the same prey, it was the orcas that would win because they were in packs, outnumbering 20 to 1. Imagine the scene, a megalodon could kill a whale but then have to retreat before a pack of orcas coming to steal what the shark had just hunted down.

As I read more about it, I realise there are so many things that make the extinction of Megalodon logical, compared to that it would make more sense for mammoths to be living to this day.

 

[smashman90]

why did you say that megalodon owned megs when meg is just a nickname for megalodon? Also, orcas are way too small, even in packs to kill an adult. The only time that they would be able to kill an adult if they are in the process of giving birth, on the verge of dying, or getting sneak attacked(which I really doubt that would happen due to it's sensory organs). Also, orcas aren't what I would call "super-predators", although I consider them the most dangerous whale so far. Like what I said, Megalodon probably hunted mainly in the coastlines because of pregnant whales, making them easy targets to attacks. Besides, there could have been many other prey for the meg like other sharks(which we could't prove since they cartilege for bones), dinosaurs (possibly), and other creatures since we don't have an exact period of their extinction(if they are extinct). Also just because orcas hunt in pods doesn't mean that they could beat a full grown Megalodon because they would have to protect their young from the megalodon. Also, we don't know the lifespan of the megalodon, so for all we know they could live for many years which would give them time to mate many times.

 

[Bowser87]

I meant orcas in that first line.

For one thing, I didn't say orcas would hunt adult megalodons, but make life harder for them by getting their food. A pack of orcas would certainly intimidate a megalodon, whatever it's size (13-20m).
Orcas are super-predators, whatever you may think. A super-predator is an animal at the top of the food chain, that is never or rarely attacked by an other animal, except humans. Orcas are probably the best example of that, they can attack even the most powerful animals on the planet.

Megalodons definately did not eat dinosaurs, they lived between 5 and 1,6 million years ago, way too late for them to coexist with dinosaurs. And I know they probably ate more than whales, like sharks, but the thing is, anything that was big enough for them to eat lived on the coastline. Almost every single species of sharks, including all the ones comparable to Megalodon, live on the coast, and the same goes for whales. Orcas have most likely the same diet as Megalodon, and live on the coast. Everything points out to Megalodon living on the coastline, and having gone extinct. The way it became instinct isn't even a mistery, compared to most instinctions, there are clear reasons why it could have died out. The way the environment changed, and the way it is today, no such creature would be fit to survive, it would have needed to evolve so much it wouldn't be a Megalodon anymore. It clearly isn't adapted for today's Earth. It's size wouldn't help at all, it was already of no use when orcas emerged.

I just thought of that, let's imagine Megalodon were still around a couple hundred years ago. Even with the disappearance of shallow seas, it's habitat, the emergence of orcas, that preyed on whales too, and the melting of ice caps that provided refuge for whales during half the year, let's say Megalodon had survived. Then how could it survive the whaling period? Most whale species were almost completely wiped out during that time, the Megalodon wouldn't have had enough food. But that's assuming they would still be around, which is illogical.

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

Orcas probably didn't only prey on whales, if they even did, they have been known to attack whales, but it was probably not their main source of food. They probably mostly preyed on smaller marine creatures such as primitive seals, primitive turtles, etc, seeing as the orcas food source was probably larger at the time of the megaladon.

 

[smashman90]

When the ice caps melted, the cold water was at the top(surface) right? Well then, the warm water would be at the bottom, probably leading many sea creatures like megalodon down to the bottom to keep warm. Are you not getting it? Megalodon was the apex predator of the ocean. It was the top dog of the sea. Also, it could manage going down and rising to the deep, although it would put much stress on its body, and I am not saying that it could live in antartica or something. Also, there is something else oh what was it called, oh yeah it is adaptation that could allow it to live in different environments. On your statements about if it survived, it could turn to cannibalism, attacks it pups, mate, etc. and lets not forget the teeny, tiny fish, although they weren't much, it could hold some of its appetite for a short time, and your favorite mammals, orcas! Also, if it was living at the ocean floor there would other fish and creatures since there is a little process called chemosynthesis which allows organisms energy without sunlight and those tiny organisms would be food for bigger animals, which would also be food for even bigger animals, and they would also be food for big fish like megalodon.

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

Also, with the megaladons extraordinary senses such as being able to sense blood from miles of miles away, as well as being able to detect electric current traveling through other creatures, the meg would have adapted quite nicely, seeing as both of these sense would still work in complete darkness. And there are sharks at the bottom of the sea, they are the six-gilled sharks, so, if theses sharks could survve down at the bottom of the ocean, why couldn't the megs?

 

[smashman90]

Also, with the megaladons extraordinary senses such as being able to sense blood from miles of miles away, as well as being able to detect electric current traveling through other creatures, the meg would have adapted quite nicely, seeing as both of these sense would still work in complete darkness. And there are sharks at the bottom of the sea, they are the six-gilled sharks, so, if theses sharks could survve down at the bottom of the ocean, why couldn't the megs?

Exactly, besides it wouldn't completely change a megalodon because of their senses. The only bad thing about that would be that the megalodon would have sensitive eyes since it would live in the dark for so long.

 

[Light]

Meg. could not exist today because, like many before me have suggested, the ecosystem could not support them. Due to over fishing by humans, today's population of baleen whales have been reduced by 95% and that of blue whales reduced by 99%. Nothing could survive off of one percent of its former diet. Additionaly, aren't the bottom dwelling sharks usually scavengers which feed almost completely off of debree falling from shallower layers of the ocean? Apex predator to scavenger, ouch.


Anyways.. iiiiff it had survived by going deeper, it think its eyes would have grown nearly useless. Instead probably relying on buffed senses of smell and bioelectricity. But w/e

 

[smashman90]

Don't anybody look at any of the previous posts that I or anybody good reasons that the megalodon could exist? Besides you don't know what all lives at the bottom of the sea, so there could be plenty of food down there at the bottom of the sea.

 

[Bowser87]

For the Megalodon to have adapted to live at the bottom at the sea, it would have had to have evolved so much that we wouldn't recognise it anymore. Like Light said, all bottom-dweller sharks are scavengers, and are small, too. They don't need nearly as much food as Megalodon does. Think about it, Megalodon could only eat big animals. Today's sharks don't even bother with fish like remoras, so Megalodons probably didn't care about anything that was smaller than tuna, it wasn't worth it. And they certainly wouldn't eat orcas, orcas are always in packs, Megalodon's 20m would mean nothing against 20+ orcas(BTW they're not my favourite sea animals either).

Megalodon might have been the apex predator of his time, but when orcas began to appear they gradually replaced him as they were more adapted to the changing environment. Megalodon couldn't survive the way it was. If descendants of the Megalodon exist today, they're definately not as big. The closest animal we've found to Megalodon in fact is the Great White Shark, and it doesn't even have the Meg as an ancestor. Everything leads to the Megalodon line having gone extinct. I must admit I didn't know much about this creature before coming to this topic, but now that I've read a lot about it, I can't imagine how it could still be around. It all falls into place:
-Melting ice caps mean it can't reach whales during summer.
-Emergence of orcas means it faces a new, polyvalent competitor that can easily crowd him out, and also eat it's young. The sharks could then face both starvation and an unsustainable number of young sharks not reaching maturity.
-Disapperance of shallow seas makes it even harder to survive. They need to adapt to a new habitat, but with all the other problems they face it's probably too late. Adapting to a life at the bottom would take an extremely long time, unimagnably long. Megalodons would be reduced to isolated populations that would eventually die out.

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

-Melting ice caps mean it can't reach whales during summer.

The icecaps didn't melt in an instant, which could have given megs. some time to adapt. Also, there are sharks in the arctic too, so why couldn't the meg be there? Also (again), there would be enough food to let the meg survive, such as seal lions, penguins, and other sharks, as well as whales.

 

[smashman90]

Yeah, and if the coelacanth was able to survive for millions of years without evolving then why not the meg be able to survive. Also, with the meg's girth that would be able to keep it warm(as well as the blood of its prey, sorry about sounding gross there). Also, the megalodon wouldn't have to evolve much because:
A. It could( and would) rely mainly on its senses.
B. It's metabolism would have slowed down due to low oxygenated water.
C. Adaptation and evolution could occur a lot quicker.
D. It's body might have adapted to cold water.
E. It's body would have developed a luminescent glow to attract mates and prey.

And here is how I contradict your theories Bowser87:

A. Since the meg's appetite would be ravenous in highly oxgenated water, it would be on a feeding frenzy on your precious orcas and whatever else it can find.
B. Sharks can survive without food for days until they can find food.
C. Just because orcas hunt in pods(not packs) doesn't mean that they could take down a megalodon without losing a lot of orca's(and they would have to protect their young)
D. When the ice caps melted, the warm water would be heading down into deeper water, so to keep warm, the meg would have to go into deeper waters and it probably wasn't the only one that had that idea.
E. Whales also like to go deep into water too ya'know, so if you look at D, the whales would have some company waiting for them.

Man, don't you guys ever read any of the previous posts and take them into consideration?
I mean, it's like I and other people too have already told you guys and you just won't listen.

 

[Bowser87]

Yeah, and if the coelacanth was able to survive for millions of years without evolving then why not the meg be able to survive..

This is where you should have read previous posts. The meg and coelacanth can't be compared, coelacanth is small. If Megalodons were still around without having evolved we'd know about it.

Also, with the meg's girth that would be able to keep it warm(as well as the blood of its prey, sorry about sounding gross there). Also, the megalodon wouldn't have to evolve much because:
A. It could( and would) rely mainly on its senses.
B. It's metabolism would have slowed down due to low oxygenated water.
C. Adaptation and evolution could occur a lot quicker.
D. It's body might have adapted to cold water.
E. It's body would have developed a luminescent glow to attract mates and prey.

Megalodon would have had to evolve a lot because the way it was 1,6 million years ago, when it presumably went extinct, it wasn't fit for the environment of today. And 1,6 million years is also way too little time for a giant coastline animal to adapt to life in the abyss. And giant animals generally take more time to evolve.

A. Since the meg's appetite would be ravenous in highly oxgenated water, it would be on a feeding frenzy on your precious orcas and whatever else it can find.

How many times will I have to say it? Get real, the idea of Megalodon feeding on orcas makes no sense. Even if it was 20m long, what could it do exactly against 20+ orcas? It would be suicide. Of course it could attack a solitary orca, but that doesn't exist. And even if there were, say, only 5 orcas, which is also pretty rare, Megalodon wouldn't attack them, because even if he could kill them all, the injuries he would sustain wouldn't make it worth it.

B. Sharks can survive without food for days until they can find food.

Well the shark species Megalodon is closest to usually find food at almost any time of the day. And what's certain is that Megalodon would need a hèll of a lot of food, more than any animal currently living on Earth. And of course if he can't find whales during summer, and if orcas steal their hunt, it becomes a little too much for the shark to bear.

C. Just because orcas hunt in pods(not packs) doesn't mean that they could take down a megalodon without losing a lot of orca's(and they would have to protect their young).

They certainly wouldn't hunt a full grown Megalodon, only the young (which is already enough to hurt the species. Before orcas emerged young Megs probably had no predators). The orcas, being the most intelligent sea animals, knew that Megalodons were not only dangerous creatures, but also their fiercest competitors, so they had a lot of reasons to get rid of them when they could. And though I said they wouldn't hunt the adults, they would probably intimidate them to steal their prey. A Megalodon seeing a bunch of orcas coming at him had no choice but to pull out and leave his food.

D. When the ice caps melted, the warm water would be heading down into deeper water, so to keep warm, the meg would have to go into deeper waters and it probably wasn't the only one that had that idea.
E. Whales also like to go deep into water too ya'know, so if you look at D, the whales would have some company waiting for them.

And if Megalodon decided to go into deep water, what would be the chances for them to meet whales? Only Sperm whales go down there, and only for a few hours a day, so Megalodon's chances to find a whale regularly there would be extremely low.
That's assuming the Megs would be able to adapt fast enough, which like I said earlier is very unlikely. They would need to "have the idea" of going down there first, and I don't see how that would happen, sharks don't have such capabilities. They wouldn't know anyway where the whales go during summer, and since they lived on the coastline they wouldn't bother going down to Antartica.

As a sidenote I found something very cool, if you guys are all interested in deep sea animals you'll find this thing neat: The Bloop

It's a sound caught by the US navy in 1997 in the middle of the Pacific, and that most probably comes from a living being. It was too loud to be from any whale species that we know of. And cephalopods aren't know to make any noise so the possibility of the animal being the giant squid or the colossal squid is slim. Oh, and don't mention the Megalodon, it's unrelated, and it makes no sense too. For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloop

 

[Seed of Sorrow]

And 1,6 million years is also way too little time for a giant coastline animal to adapt to life in the abyss. And giant animals generally take more time to evolve.

As a sidenote I found something very cool, if you guys are all interested in deep sea animals
you'll find this thing neat: The Bloop

Very cool find Bowser87! Anyways, it is certainly possible that the meg did not retreat that far down into the ocean, perhaps only half way (more or less), seeing as the ocean is unfathomably deep. Which could open up the possiblity of the meg finding a sufficient amount of food.

 

[smashman90]

Also, we found meg teeth which were dated back between 10,000 to 20,000 years old, which would be the time humans were around and the ice age happened about two million years, so Bowser87, you said that one reason that the meg could become extinct was during the last major ice age, how could that be possible? That would mean that there was something there that the megalodon was feeding off of and that it survived the changes and the environment. Also did they say an estimated size of this creature(if it was one)? Good point Seed of sorrow.

 

[RaRaRachael]

Megalodon could still be alive. There is no reason why it couldn't be. Man has not seen all of the ocean and has not seen all the sea creatures it holds. It is quite possible that Megalodon is still alive.

 

[smashman90]

That's exactly what I have been trying to say, besides if megalodon could exist than what else could too?

 

[Bowser87]

About the teeth being dated 15,000 to 10,000 I'll just quote part of the Wikipedia article:

Megalodon teeth have been discovered that some argue date as recently as 10,000 to 15,000 years ago. This claim is based on the discovery of two teeth by the HMS Challenger (these teeth were dated by estimating the amount of time it took for manganese to accumulate on them, although it is quite possible the teeth were fossilized before being encrusted).

Others have countered that these recent estimates for these teeth are inaccurate, and "claims of post-Pliocene C. megalodon ... are erroneous", being based on outdated testing and methodology. [1] Roesch and others also note that Megalodons were probably coastal sharks, and that deep-sea survival is extremely unlikely.

Anyway, yes, RaRaRachael, there are plenty of reasons to believe Megalodons are extinct, I enumerated pretty much all of them I think, and they seem to satisfy the scientific community. And you're right Smashman80, if Megalodons still existed, then what about all the other animal from it's era? If the Megalodon survived all the changes to it's environment, what about all those animals that seem to have disappeared for no reason? Some are giant too, giant rhinos, giant kangooroos, giant apes...There are plenty of them, unlike Megalodon, that could live in today's world the same way they were over a million years ago. So why don't the zoocryptologists talk about those animals, instead of one who's extinction makes perfect sense?

Oh and there's no estimation of the size of the animal at the origin of the Bloop, except that it must be bigger than a blue whale, if it is an animal. All the information is on the link, there's nothing more we know about it.

 

[smashman90]

Because there have been supposed megalodon sightings which means that it could still survive, if there were other sightings of other creatures thought to be extinct or lived in prehistoric times then cryptozoologists would take consideration of the possibilities and they might search for those animals too. This may be off-subject but some people think that bigfoot might be a prehistoric ape, Gigantopithicus is what I believe it is called.

 

[Bowser87]

Giganthopithicus lived only in China and went extinct thousands of years ago so I doubt that.

So it's because of fish-stories cryptozoologists are more interested in Megalodon? I would also add the fact that Megalodon is one of the most fascinating extinct animals, which makes people wish it would still exist and contributes to creating a debate when there shouldn't be one. But regarding the supposed sightings, you'll find they're not really convincing once analysed: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bz050/megalodon.html .

 

[smashman90]

Well you gotta remember, if it was a big shark like megalodon then they will be a bit exagerated on their story or who knows it might be the mysterious "bloop creature". Also, since these creatures are fish with maybe the exception of the bloop creature they might not all float to the top so it is difficult to prove what exists or not.

 

[REØ]

Pretty scary isn't it? I just hope these things are long gone extinct.

 

[smashman90]

Nice pics.

 

[jrj0381]

extinct or alive?

The chances are pretty slim that any Megalodons survived all those years, but I did read that some who have bought into the theory of them surviving by going deep into the deep water trenches found some hope by discovering the hydrathermal vents, which is the result of the movement of tectonic plates, causing volcanic activity, which could have warmed the waters in the lower depths of the deepest parts of the trenches. It is likely we will never know whether they did survive, and the reasonable assumption is that they are extinct, but if they did survive, the theory goes that they may be trapped way down below, due to the drastic change in temperatures, if they did try to reach the surface, they would probably die. Anyway, just thought that was interesting, this is my first post on this board. If by chance someday in my lifetime, if one appeared, alive and roamed the surface again, it would make me think twice about going into the water again. I guess this is just one of those unsolvable mysteries, and the only way to solve it is to see one come to light.

 

[Crimson King]

Yea, they don't exist anymore. For one, if you read Meg, they are an apex predator and even if one COULD exist and made it to surface, they eat a lot and everything they could. They are also beach hunters and would come pretty close to land to attack. Meaning we'd have tons of sightings instead of none.

If they do live at the bottom of the ocean, their food supply would be greatly diminished compared to what they are used to, and thus, over time, they would greatly reduce in size, or simply die out.

Sorry, as cool as it would be for them to exist, it's not gonna happen.