Buff falcons ground moves(slightly)

[Papa+Stone]

Falcons cool in PM and all of the buffs to his specials are nice and everything, but can you give small speed tweaks to his tilts and smashes, especially his dtilt, so that they add more utility and options to falcon? This way falcon would have his good aerial and grab game untampered, but will add a few very small options to falcons ground game that he didnt already have, and wouldnt need to ddance camp for quite as long. Also making his side special go through projectiles once again is something that needs to be reimplemented

 

[NWRL]

The Side B change is something that he really needs. That's one change from Melee that didn't need to happen

 

[210stuna]

One suggestion I haven't put too much thought into is the ability to roll left/right IF Falcon misses with his side B.

Also general P:M Falcon Side B funky mishaps are stupid. Especially when you use it to grab the edge and he just falls off instead. Certain stages it does that to me, and I'm just like Falcon! What the hay!?

 

[GeZ]

His side B definitely would benefit from going through projectiles, but as it stands now it's pretty solid. Dtilt has always been a really weird move that doesn't see much use. He just has better options in almost all instances. The only thing I've seen is on certain characters in Melee, Falcon could do this swag combo at early to mid percents connecting Dair to Dtilt to Uair to Dtilt to Knee. It was pretty sweet, but I don't know how intact it is in P:M. It would be nice to have buffed ground normals, but I don't see it being super necessary. Some of them just aren't very useful for him and see very little use (see: Utilt, Ftilt) because his aerials and grab game really cover everything they'd need to do.

 

[666blaziken]

If anything, they could make his down smash a little faster. I mean Marty and link have speedy down smashes, so captain could have a faster one to help him escape from pressure slightly better.

 

[yohoos]

Yea I would really like to see Captain Falcon's ground moves get more viability because as of now they are really just dead weights that add nothing to his game and while he is a viable character he has been getting more difficult match ups recently with the updates and it would really help with his design if he could actually apply the other half of his move pool in games.

 

[Zhea]

Next they can get to working on making him not falcon.

 

[GeZ]

And after that they can get to giving him that much needed fireball, and teleport.

Which is to say, Captain Falcon is a very capable character in this game, and this thread is made of johns. Get good. Christ.

 

[yohoos]

I don't see how improving falcon would be a bad thing considering almost all the redesigned characters have been made with the idea that every move has a purpose. He wouldn't be any less falcon than he was before if only the moves like ftilt,fsmash, or upsmash were changed so that they were actually useful. Similar to how they changed Ganon's uptilt because it was useless. I liked the falcon kick change even though I don't use it much because of melee's influence on his playstyle, however, it is a viable option now rather than melee's falcon kick, it's just the same concept for his other useless moves.

 

[666blaziken]

I can see his down smash first hit being a LITTLE faster. It feels like gannondorf's down smash is faster than falcon's. Having all of your viable moves consist of aerial attacks gives him a good few bad matchups. His one viable grounded move in melee was his forward b, and in PM, it no longer goes through projectiles, so if they can't get that working, they should speed up his other moves like his down smash, I can see his skills matching up to top tiers like fox.

 

[Sixth-Sense]

the only buff i would like for falcon is a faster Dtilt and maybe a liiiitle more coverage on the top, i've always liked to use it but most of the time theres so much endlag i can't finish the kill

 

[prisoner]

And after that they can get to giving him that much needed fireball, and teleport.

Which is to say, Captain Falcon is a very capable character in this game, and this thread is made of johns. Get good. Christ.

easy to say, but this statement reeks of "because melee".

and you'll notice that Falcon is quickly becoming irrelevant in the Melee metagame; it's pure theorycrafting that puts Falcon even at mid-tier in PM.

 

[GeZ]

easy to say, but this statement reeks of "because melee".

and you'll notice that Falcon is quickly becoming irrelevant in the Melee metagame; it's pure theorycrafting that puts Falcon even at mid-tier in PM.

I didn't say anything near "because melee". Falcon's play style is really different in P:M than melee and I like him better for it. The problem is that their is only one Falcon player (Strawhat) that plays him according to his new playstyle. But when he does enter tournaments he carves a warpath to the god damn top. I say "get good", because everyone just wants Falcon to be a better version of his melee self, but the way he's come out has left him as a character who wants to play differently. People are getting wrecked playing him because they're not open to this new playstyle, so they say that he's underpowered and irrelevant, instead of changing the way they play, which is wrong on it's face.

Try branching out, and acting like he's not melee Falcon. You'll probably perform better, and visit the "Falcon so bad" threads less.

 

[yohoos]

I'm not saying falcon is bad or anything but I also don't think that he is good enough to the point where any additional buffs would break him. The more important point I'm trying to get across is that a lot of his ground moves should be tweaked because they are unviable 99% of the time. Now, combine all those unviable ground moves with the fact that he already has to carry a meh side b (that does not pass projectiles anymore) with an absolutely useless neutral b makes him feel like an incomplete character when compared to the other PM characters with completely viable move pools. By tweaking those moves we could also give falcon more tools for approach on the ground other than the go-to dash dance grab which simply fails against certain characters.

Additionally, I'm not sure how Falcon plays differently in this game. If anything Falcon has to play more carefully in neutral because more characters are now viable with strong neutral games and that really damps his effectiveness if anything. As far as his strengths and weaknesses go, I feel that they are still the same, and don't really see how PM Falcon is much different than Melee Falcon. Feel free to enlighten me though.

 

[GeZ]

You kind of hit the nail on the head without realizing it. He's more neutral centric. He can't push in as hard so Falcon players have to think harder about their game, and through that, the Falcon meta should be growing exponentially. But instead we get a lot of players saying he's bad because they don't realize how much he currently lends himself to intelligent thought. It's frustrating because he really is an awesome character, and saying he feels incomplete is reflexive of not understanding him as a character.

Also I'd say only his Ftilt and Neutral B are dead moves. I use everything else, just not all equally, because no character uses all moves equally. Some stuff is just better for certain situations.

 

[yohoos]

But that's the thing, I don't feel the meta should be growing per se, compared to melee's metagame, because he can't push as hard. If anything it cuts off options for him because his relative neutral game is weaker now which IMO should be changing and possibly even shrinking his meta. This is why I believe we can buff his ground game, so that he gets more options to deal with that. But even so it bugs me more than anything that he has multiple dead moves to begin with. It just seems to go against PM's design, which is viability.

I also believe his UpSmash/Side Smash is useless. UpSmash and Side Smash are both out classed by the Knee which, while I don't know frame data for, I feel like I can SHFFL into either faster or just as fast for much better results and less risk. In fact I really hate Side Smash, that move sucks. I cry every time I do it.

 

[NWRL]

After playing a bunch of Smash Bros 64, I think we should give Falcon the Toon Link treatment. Mesh his Melee and 64 forms together for a brutal killing machine. Turn his Forward tilt into the elbow which will basically be the same move but faster and weaker, and make it have a upwards angled knock back so it can combo into aerials. Turn his Fsmash into the 64 Fsmash so he has a long range ground option, keep his down and up tilts, and change his Usmash to be the same one in SSB64.

Maybe even give him the Falcon Punch from 64. Maybe I'm just biased but I love 64 Falcon.

As it stands right now, Falcon isn't really viable, at least in my opinion. He's fallen off hard in the melee metagame, and people are dropping him sadly. And in Project M, projectiles are the name of the game, and we all know how Falcon deals with projectiles. It really sucks too because he's one of the funnest characters in the game. Giving him all of these changes would make him more complete as a character since it gives him ground options which enhance his aerial game.

 

[yohoos]

YES, I would LOVE the N64 treatment on his UpSmash as I loved playing that game although UpSmash was a bit op back then with N64 physics. If he could use that move to send a crouching kirby/puff/snake upwards it would satisfy me to no end because falcon has no viable ground option against those guys when they crouch . As for the Fsmash and Ftilts, idk, because while it may look cool to have his N64 stuff back, I'm not sure how they would add to his ground game.

 

[NWRL]

His Fsmash would have the same use as it does in 64, long range horizontal kill move. It can also be used to space to give yourself some room or reset to neutral.

 

[yohoos]

Yeah I guess the extra range would help with maybe edge-guarding or something but captain falcon really needs no other kill move aside from the knee. I would rather have an Fsmash that's a little faster with reduced knockback to balance it out. Because a slow, but powerful Fsmash is basically what he has now, and it really does not help him out much. I guess I'm really thinking about Ganon's current Ftilt which really helps Ganon's spacing on the ground. But I'm not sure if it's a good idea to be bringing those two back together after all this effort to separate them apart.

 

[yohoos]

But then again if they were ever to redesign Ganon which I think some people are arguing for, then they should totally give his current tilts to Falcon.

 

[GeZ]

But then again if they were ever to redesign Ganon which I think some people are arguing for, then they should totally give his current tilts to Falcon.

The Ganon redesign isn't going to happen, but I've ranted on it before and this isn't the place for that so I'll leave it at that. Also, and this isn't to be said in spite or at your expense in excess, but I think that saying Falcon should get Ganon's tilts betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of character design, in that those tools would be as dead as his current tilts. They're better, sure, but that doesn't matter because they don't serve Falcon's game at all.

Ganons Ftilt helps space but Falcon doesn't need to space with a move as he spends his time choosing opportunities to push in. Dtilt is functionally the same and Utilt would work as his current one does. The character wouldn't benefit from those changes, or really many changes to his grounded moves at all. His Ftilt and Fsmash don't serve him at all. No amount of changes, short of a complete overhaul, while change that. Usmash fits into combo's better than people here would say, so I don't see why it's considered crumby. Dsmash could be used to punish some characters techs(?) but his tech chase grab game out strips that easily. Jab is good and doesn't need anything, and Dtilt functions at some specific percents and is really the only move I'd like to see changed in that it could afford to be faster. Everything else proposed thus far would be buffs to moves that have better counterparts already.

I've thought through buffing Falcon myself for a while and it really is a tough matter, for the aforementioned reasons and otherwise. His good tools don't need changes and his bad tools don't need substitute as the good tools cover all the bases he wants to cover. That isn't to say that you could change his Ftilt to mime Ganons, but like I said, it would benefit an unused part of his spacing game, being ultimately useless.

 

[NWRL]

Well the issue with Falcon in P:M is the fact that he has a large portion of his moves being dead moves that are rarely used. I think if you give him better ground options and have those options segue into his aerial game he'll be complete. Look at Wolf, he's Captain Falcon and spacies combined, he has 6 ways to launch people, and several options to keep his aerials going. Falcon has his throws, stomp, dtilt and raptor boost (if it hits).


Having someone like Falcon mixed in with characters like Ike definitely sends some mixed messages. I can find a use in everygame for every single one of Ike's moves. I've used utilt in maybe 5% of my matches as Falcon.

 

[GeZ]

And all his aerials. I'm surprised you forgot about those. And those changes would fall under overhaul of his grounded moves, as none of them do what you're describing. Though I think if he really needs the changes, which I think he doesn't as Strawhat OP, overhauling the useless grounded moves would be where to start.

 

[NWRL]

I definitely agree with the grounded moves, I honestly think combining some aspects of 64 Falcon with his current incarnation would be a great start. Give him the same Usmash and Falcon punch from 64 and see how he tests out from there. I think you'll see some noticeable improvement in Falcon's metagame.

 

[TTTTTsd]

64 Usmash would be all I would really add and even then Falcon feels fine. But if I had to, Usmash from 64 all the way. It's soooooo good there.

 

[yohoos]

I wouldn't find Ganon's tilts on Falcon entirely useless. Sure they wouldn't be added to his core game, but if can be as strong as Ganon's (in my dreams) it can give Falcon an option against crouch cancelling on the ground aside from grabs, or simply to just put it out there to mix it up. I hardly think giving him more options would hurt. That or give him UpSmash 64 haha that would also work against crouch cancelling as well as giving him another powerful combo starter/anti-air option.

But yeah I agree that the Ftilts and FSmashes would be difficult to redesign simply because the stereotypical roles of Ftilt and FSmash are already mostly filled by Falcon's aerials, thus if they were to change it, they need to seriously brainstorm some creative designs for those moves. Who knows, maybe he can finally use the gun that he carries around lol.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

There are so many subtle buffs that would help Falcon so much more than getting better tilts that no one has mentioned. One buff that would make a world of difference for Falcon is stretching the grab box of his grab downwards, so that he could grab all crouching characters. While were at it, why don't we stretch the hitbox of his Jab 1 and 2 downwards too, that he can jab them too. A good techroll would also do wonders for the Captain. The problem matchups are with characters who invalidate Captain Falcon's main tools, or characters who techchase him for free. Imagine how good Falcon would be if he could actually jab/grab a crouching Puff/Kirby/Sheik/Snake, or if Sheik could no longer techchase him to his death for free. These changes would change nothing about the core of Falcon's game, he would still be the same character he's always been, but all the stupid **** that never should've been a thing in the first place will be gone, leaving a much more solid character with no need to scrape away an inch of the nostalgia.

 

[yohoos]

I like the idea of making his tech roll better, but that seems like something that's grandfathered in from melee and idk if people are just willing to change it like that. As for changing the hitboxes, it seems like a copout if all we do is extend the hit box because we don't like the limitations of a certain move. I mean falcon is rather tall and it makes sense that he can't grab short characters, not to mention the new hitboxes might be a bit disorienting hitting far below where his fists actually are.

Also, if Falcon gets this treatment then it wouldn't seem fair to others like Ganon who also have similar problems and not get this treatment. I also wouldn't support everyone getting this treatment because I find the whole height/size factor in the neutral game to be interesting and would rather have it kept in than left out by equalizing all grabs in a sense. I honestly believe that the developers of Melee actually did a great job with Falcon's good moves and really I only have gripes with his less than viable ones.

 

[GeZ]

But Crescent Monkey is making good suggestions for balance changes, as they're relevant, and useful, without changing Falcons core. And lots of characters have had moves hitboxes extended to boost their viability. It's really not a specific treatment, but rather a covering of bases, which is why it isn't so easily replicated for a lot of other characters.

For instance, Ganon doesn't suffer from a few key things that really hold him back. He suffers from having an overall weak game as a byproduct of his design. His design is awesome, and I don't agree with the people who say that he should be completely changed, but it is a challenge to make him better without making him intrinsically different.

 

[yohoos]

I can see how changing the hitboxes around would be a quick fix, but I guess I'm just imagining the results in my head and it just doesn't look right so to say. But I guess I won't go further into that until it's actually implemented and then give further criticism. However, I do still believe it to be better to work with the 3-4 open move slots Falcon has and change around things that Falcon has never used rather than mess with his core moves. Falcon is a very sensitive character to change mainly because his game relies on so few options and I feel it's safer to add to those options rather than change them.