Bronze Greek God Sword Ganon

[Patt Anderson]

Oh i see, you think fist ganons up b is too fast and sword ganons is too slow?

That's kinda strange cause i didn't change the speed of the fist ganon up b...

and as for sword ganon, what part is too slow?

The initial jump is fine but the sword swings are a little too slow. I'm not very technical sorry.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

The initial jump is fine but the sword swings are a little too slow. I'm not very technical sorry.

ya, k so the second swing i sped up, if i speed it up more it'll mess up the vertical movement of the move. I'm not sure how to change that to make it better. If you have any more specific ideas for improving the speed I'll look into it.

 

[\Apples]

Well the side B is 100% based off of his attack in Twilight princess.. so if it doesnt fit him in smash it shouldnt be in TP either

Wait before trying my current latest version cause I'm gona be releasing another very soon.

Fair enough, but I thought it was weird in TP too.

What I think erks me the most about it is how it functions like Ike's Side+B, in that it triggers at the end or when the player triggers it. Ganon doesn't have mechanics like that and it just doesn't FEEL like Ganon at all. I really agree with the change you made to it where he wall nudges on wall collision. I think it should function more like his normal or Melee Side+B in that it's activated automatically when he makes contact with a hurtbox. More akin to his Melee Side+B in that it has that emergent property where it can miss if the spacing is off. I think it should have dramatically decreased knockback as well and should be a meteor. If it hits a grounded opponent, it pops them up and functions like his Melee Side+B. Airborne opponents must tech it. His movement should be nearly identical to his traditional Side+B's and if used at the edge, he should fall off and grab it just like is default Side+B.

I just think the best possible design of this mod should only have a few CORE differences from default Ganon, much like Samus and her beam swap. As it is now, it's just too wild and out of control and honestly this mod has a lot of janky moves that would prevent it from really ever being taken seriously. For instance, the most ridiculous one is the Down+B change. Yeah it's way weaker, but the move is just wayyyy too ridiculous and it's a huge turn-off. Based on the character to stage scaling of this game, it just way too extreme. A character should not be able to move that quickly with a disjointed hitbox in front of them which sets up for offstage KO's almost automatically. I see what you were going for here, and it's kinda fun for like... a minute. Then everyone realizes this is just silly and doesn't belong in this game at all, let alone this character. Since when has Ganon been able to do that? If he can do that in a Zelda game, I've never seen it and I've played the majority of Zelda games; meaning that if he can, it's not something he traditionally can do.

What's more important though is who Ganon is in the Smash world. He's a grappler who lacks strong mobility, whose combos are short because he racks up damage super fast and has extraordinary kill power. His poor mobility makes it difficult for him to land those kills and start those combos, so he becomes a very very mental character. You must ask yourself, "What has changed now that he has a sword?" Well, the two most obvious are the range increase and disjointed hitboxes. They're pretty much a package deal, and any more than those changes to his core moveset are far too complex. Occam's Razor, man. Simplicity is key in good design. That's my point here. Something that Ashingda's mod was doing very well at the beginning was that Ganon was a little slower than he already was, just by a tad, but what he lost in speed, he gained in safety. I think after a few iterations, Ashingda got carried away making cool looking fun stuff that was actually terribly designed because he started listening to forum junkies' opinions on what would make this character work.

That being said, here are my suggestions for a really really solid sword-weilding Ganon that ACTUALLY fits into Project: M's design.

Down+B: Revert it back to normal properties, just have him hold the sword out in front of him, making the move safer if spaced right AND allow him to but a powerful killing hitbox out there just a small amount further than before, the sword is longer than the leg. This will create enough of a difference between the two movesets to keep the opponent guessing. When they see the Side+B start up, they must remember which stance Ganon is in, and space appropriately. If they mess it up, they'll either be too far out of punish range or they'll take a sword to the face.

Side+B: I talked about that above. Old school Side+B, but a meteor. The range on this is incredible and it would already be probably better than his Melee Side+B and the Flame Choke. Eh, maybe not better than Flame Choke, just different. I'd say it's on the power level of Flame Choke, which is what you want, this is P:M, not Melee.

Up+B: This is good currently aside from one smallllllll change I'd make. Give him a quick weak sword sweep as it starts up, something that comes out on like... frame 6 but only in front of him. Remember, he lost a lot of speed so he's going to need a half-assed defensive option out of shield. This would be perfect. Just have it pop them up and link into the higher late hit. I'd make it set knockback, but the angle would be up and away from him, such that if the opponent (let's say a Fox) is pressuring Ganon's shield, Fox would have to SDI AWAY from Ganon to avoid getting slammed by the top portion of Ganon's Up+B, but if DI'd in, Fox gets hit hard. Definitely not frame 4 startup and I think 8 is the slowest you could go. 6-8 frame startup.

Neutral+B: I guess it's fine as is. It's honestly a terrible attack and it should just stay that way, it's already better than Warlock Punch lol so just leave it as is.

All 5 of his aerials are perfect. Honestly. Keep them as they are, they're great. If anything though, I'd slow them down just a tad, remember: he's trading speed for range here with the sword. EVERY MOVE SHOULD REFLECT THAT.

Jab is fine, but it looks hella cheesy. He looks like a dope swinging that sword lol. His punch jab is swag and it fits Ganon perfectly cause it's just such a badass move. If the animation was cleaned up somehow, or redesigned, this would work great. The hitboxes are fine. I think this move is one of those that just needs to change quite a bit.

I actually like his tilts a lot, except his Utilt should honestly just be his Usmash and it should be weak as hell at the top like it is, but hella strong on the sword itself. The quick startup swing should be angled away and up just like his Up+B suggestion I made. The theme here for the opponent is to SDI AWAY from Ganon all the time except when you're at kill %. I'm not sure what would be best for a new Utilt, but honestly his current Usmash is crust. His Utilt should still be something hella slow and strong. That's core to Ganon.

Dtilt is weird though, it's not even safe on hit. They CC and you get punished hard. I like the idea, but it sucks. Just make it like his default Dtilt, but instead of the leg, it's the sword. More range, disjointed, but just a tad slower.

His F and Dsmashes are cool, I like them. Fsmash is just like his default, but has a second optional hit with nuts range, perfect for the sword. Dsmash is similar to his default as well, hits on both sides and has more range. I think it's similar enough but also different enough.

One last thing. Do not make the mistake of increasing his knockback or damage more when he uses his sword. That would ruin the scaling of his combos and would completely ruin the advantage of having more range and disjoints in the combo game because it would be so much more difficult. The neutral game would be unaffected, but it'd be harder to combo.

Let me know what you think.

I should end by saying great job. You've done well here with this mod and I think it's heading somewhere, but it just needs focus and taming. If you're interested, I can help you there.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Fair enough, but I thought it was weird in TP too.

What I think erks me the most about it is how it functions like Ike's Side+B, in that it triggers at the end or when the player triggers it. Ganon doesn't have mechanics like that and it just doesn't FEEL like Ganon at all. I really agree with the change you made to it where he wall nudges on wall collision. I think it should function more like his normal or Melee Side+B in that it's activated automatically when he makes contact with a hurtbox. More akin to his Melee Side+B in that it has that emergent property where it can miss if the spacing is off. I think it should have dramatically decreased knockback as well and should be a meteor. If it hits a grounded opponent, it pops them up and functions like his Melee Side+B. Airborne opponents must tech it. His movement should be nearly identical to his traditional Side+B's and if used at the edge, he should fall off and grab it just like is default Side+B.

I just think the best possible design of this mod should only have a few CORE differences from default Ganon, much like Samus and her beam swap. As it is now, it's just too wild and out of control and honestly this mod has a lot of janky moves that would prevent it from really ever being taken seriously. For instance, the most ridiculous one is the Down+B change. Yeah it's way weaker, but the move is just wayyyy too ridiculous and it's a huge turn-off. Based on the character to stage scaling of this game, it just way too extreme. A character should not be able to move that quickly with a disjointed hitbox in front of them which sets up for offstage KO's almost automatically. I see what you were going for here, and it's kinda fun for like... a minute. Then everyone realizes this is just silly and doesn't belong in this game at all, let alone this character. Since when has Ganon been able to do that? If he can do that in a Zelda game, I've never seen it and I've played the majority of Zelda games; meaning that if he can, it's not something he traditionally can do.

What's more important though is who Ganon is in the Smash world. He's a grappler who lacks strong mobility, whose combos are short because he racks up damage super fast and has extraordinary kill power. His poor mobility makes it difficult for him to land those kills and start those combos, so he becomes a very very mental character. You must ask yourself, "What has changed now that he has a sword?" Well, the two most obvious are the range increase and disjointed hitboxes. They're pretty much a package deal, and any more than those changes to his core moveset are far too complex. Occam's Razor, man. Simplicity is key in good design. That's my point here. Something that Ashingda's mod was doing very well at the beginning was that Ganon was a little slower than he already was, just by a tad, but what he lost in speed, he gained in safety. I think after a few iterations, Ashingda got carried away making cool looking fun stuff that was actually terribly designed because he started listening to forum junkies' opinions on what would make this character work.

That being said, here are my suggestions for a really really solid sword-weilding Ganon that ACTUALLY fits into Project: M's design.

Down+B: Revert it back to normal properties, just have him hold the sword out in front of him, making the move safer if spaced right AND allow him to but a powerful killing hitbox out there just a small amount further than before, the sword is longer than the leg. This will create enough of a difference between the two movesets to keep the opponent guessing. When they see the Side+B start up, they must remember which stance Ganon is in, and space appropriately. If they mess it up, they'll either be too far out of punish range or they'll take a sword to the face.

Side+B: I talked about that above. Old school Side+B, but a meteor. The range on this is incredible and it would already be probably better than his Melee Side+B and the Flame Choke. Eh, maybe not better than Flame Choke, just different. I'd say it's on the power level of Flame Choke, which is what you want, this is P:M, not Melee.

Up+B: This is good currently aside from one smallllllll change I'd make. Give him a quick weak sword sweep as it starts up, something that comes out on like... frame 6 but only in front of him. Remember, he lost a lot of speed so he's going to need a half-***** defensive option out of shield. This would be perfect. Just have it pop them up and link into the higher late hit. I'd make it set knockback, but the angle would be up and away from him, such that if the opponent (let's say a Fox) is pressuring Ganon's shield, Fox would have to SDI AWAY from Ganon to avoid getting slammed by the top portion of Ganon's Up+B, but if DI'd in, Fox gets hit hard. Definitely not frame 4 startup and I think 8 is the slowest you could go. 6-8 frame startup.

Neutral+B: I guess it's fine as is. It's honestly a terrible attack and it should just stay that way, it's already better than Warlock Punch lol so just leave it as is.

All 5 of his aerials are perfect. Honestly. Keep them as they are, they're great. If anything though, I'd slow them down just a tad, remember: he's trading speed for range here with the sword. EVERY MOVE SHOULD REFLECT THAT.

Jab is fine, but it looks hella cheesy. He looks like a dope swinging that sword lol. His punch jab is swag and it fits Ganon perfectly cause it's just such a badass move. If the animation was cleaned up somehow, or redesigned, this would work great. The hitboxes are fine. I think this move is one of those that just needs to change quite a bit.

I actually like his tilts a lot, except his Utilt should honestly just be his Usmash and it should be weak as hell at the top like it is, but hella strong on the sword itself. The quick startup swing should be angled away and up just like his Up+B suggestion I made. The theme here for the opponent is to SDI AWAY from Ganon all the time except when you're at kill %. I'm not sure what would be best for a new Utilt, but honestly his current Usmash is crust. His Utilt should still be something hella slow and strong. That's core to Ganon.

Dtilt is weird though, it's not even safe on hit. They CC and you get punished hard. I like the idea, but it sucks. Just make it like his default Dtilt, but instead of the leg, it's the sword. More range, disjointed, but just a tad slower.

His F and Dsmashes are cool, I like them. Fsmash is just like his default, but has a second optional hit with nuts range, perfect for the sword. Dsmash is similar to his default as well, hits on both sides and has more range. I think it's similar enough but also different enough.

One last thing. Do not make the mistake of increasing his knockback or damage more when he uses his sword. That would ruin the scaling of his combos and would completely ruin the advantage of having more range and disjoints in the combo game because it would be so much more difficult. The neutral game would be unaffected, but it'd be harder to combo.

Let me know what you think.

K great suggestions. I see what you're saying with a lot of the stuff you're bringing up. I'll slowly work on a lot of it for sure. I wish i was more pro at everything like the PMBR tho lol. there are a handfull of aesthetic things that are bothering me big time. You also mentioned some of the move set is really clunky and stuff, that could simply be because of my lack of expertise. Some animations certainly need work, and I'm working on them but right now the game is freezing when I edit them so that is super annoying.

My overall goal for the sword moveset was to make it similar - but different like you kinda have illustrated i should be doing. I also really wanted to make it based on TP ganon as much as possible with a couple of minor twists. And finally, I don't like ganondorf being a clone of C falcon at all, so i wanted to give him moves that feel a lot different from the original clone moves. Keep in mind the way ganondorf has felt in smash bros (in melee brawl and P:M) isnt necessarily how ganondorf should feel based on games we've seen him in. I do know there are a lot of arguments against that statement, but i can't agree with them lol (so lets not get into that). Now for some specific suggestions you made:

Side B - I dont know how well the side b would work the way you've explained it. I'd have to completely change the animation and everything, and I was really trying to make it feel like the TP attack he has. I was also looking to make it a move to rival ikes side B. This is the only move i really aimed to make completely different.

Up b - i may be misunderstanding what you're suggesting, but it already does have a pop at the beginning of the animation where it knocks the opponent up for a second attack. Or were you trying to describe something different?

down b - is it the distance and speed of the move that is the issue right now? I mean you're not telling me to change it all that much (besides making it feel more like the normal down B). You mentioned that it is an instant KO if someones offstage.. what if i made the hit boxes a lot weaker in the second half of the animation?
as for "when has he ever done this", some moves can be left to imagination i think. We haven't seen Ganondorf work with a sword that much, so this move set isn't gona be PERFECTLY canon. Although he does have a powerful fast moving attack like this on OOT (when he smashes toward the ground). I don't think its THAT far fetched (but ideally ganondorf should have a trident not a sword, and he should be using more magic). I will be taking this into consideration. You have made valid points about things feeling like they belong in P:M and I really wana make things feel right as much as I can.

up tilt - i really like this move the way it is because its great to use to start combos and stuff. I also don't know what I'd make his up tilt if i make this his up smash.

up smash - im a bit behind on my slang were u saying the up smash is no good currently? and if so why is that?

Everything else is more or less on point with what i'm aiming to do. I'll slow down some of his moves (perhaps the startup of the moves?).

If you have any skill with brawlbox or psa feel free to play around with what ive done. Maybe we can come up with something really good that way

Also, I'm really hoping the PMBR is planning on doing a sword mode Ganon. After seeing samus' beam change, I feel like that is a possibility for ganondorf.

Anyway thanks again for the feedback, lemi know what you think about the above points.


Edit: Also, what do u mean exactly by janky and wild moves? is that specific to the side b and down b attacks?

 

[\Apples]

My overall goal for the sword moveset was to make it similar - but different like you kinda have illustrated i should be doing. I also really wanted to make it based on TP ganon as much as possible with a couple of minor twists. And finally, I don't like ganondorf being a clone of C falcon at all, so i wanted to give him moves that feel a lot different from the original clone moves.

I hear ya on that, but I think he's already pretty different and honestly, I think he's about as different as he needs to be. He's not a Falcon clone at all anymore even in his default moveset. With his sword, he really only has about half the animations in common maybe less.

Side B - I dont know how well the side b would work the way you've explained it though. I'd have to completely change the animation and everything, and I was really trying to make it feel like the TP attack he has. I was also looking to make it a move to rival ikes side B. This is the only move i really aimed to make completely different.

I don't think you'd have to change the animations at all, You should only have to change how it transitions from the first to the second part and I think that'd involve changing hitbox properties. You'd have a hitbox on the charge animation which does nothing but detect a collision. When it detects a collision, transition into the swing. It's simple in theory, idk about in practice tho.

Up b - i may be misunderstanding what you're suggesting, but it already does have a pop at the beginning of the animation where it knocks the opponent up for a second attack. Or were you trying to describe something different?

I'm not able to test atm and re-look at the move, but if I recall, you already have that first swing, but it's like on his way up rather than as he's winding up. You want the first swing to come out fast so it can be used defensively. He shouldn't have a super reliable Up+B OOS, so making it hit on only one side and be weak.

down b - is it the distance and speed of the move that is the issue right now? I mean you're not telling me to change it all that much (besides making it feel more like the normal down B). You mentioned that it is an instant KO if someones offstage.. what if i made the hit boxes a lot weaker in the second half of the animation?

Literally just make it identical startup and endlag, speed and distance covered as his default DownB, but use the animation you have currently. The only difference between the two moves should be the sword vs the foot, which is HUGE if done correctly. Small changes go a long way, you'd be surprised. The main difference should be that the move should hit further in front of him because of the sword AND it should be disjointed (again, because it's a sword). That's a big enough difference to give the move a slightly different application in combat.

Everything else is more or less on point with what i'm aiming to do. I'll slow down some of his moves (perhaps the startup of the moves?).

Either startup or endlag, I wouldn't slow both down on any given move. I'll play more with it when I get a chance and I'll have more specific feedback on this, as well as other things.

If you have any skill with brawlbox or psa feel free to play around with what ive done. Maybe we can come up with something really good that way

I've never touched psa and I've not used BrawlBox for animation cause I hate it (I'm spoiled, used to proper 3D suites' animation tools.) I should be able to pick psa up pretty easily though, I'm a designer/developer/artist so I'm no stranger to this stuff.

Edit: Also, what do u mean exactly by janky and wild moves? is that specific to the side b and down b attacks?

Mostly just referring to the down b. It's just... it's too much. Ganon shouldn't be able to move that far that fast, regardless of what nerfs you may apply to the move in attempt to justify its inclusion in his moveset such as long startup or endlag or what have you. If you add nerfs to justify it in other areas, then you decrease its usefulness with each nerf. However, if you make it useful as it is and just make it ridiculously fast and move him ridiculously far, even if the move doesn't even have any hitboxes on it, it's a crazy mobility option that he gains which fundamentally contradicts Ganondorf's core design:

...a grappler who lacks strong mobility, whose combos are short because he racks up damage super fast and has extraordinary kill power.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I hear ya on that, but I think he's already pretty different and honestly, I think he's about as different as he needs to be. He's not a Falcon clone at all anymore even in his default moveset. With his sword, he really only has about half the animations in common maybe less.

I duno man, to me no matter how you put it, his normal moveset still is cloned. He should never have been based off of C falcon in any way shape or form. And ya when it comes to the sword everything is basically different, but i still wanted to add some more differentiation into it.

I don't think you'd have to change the animations at all, You should only have to change how it transitions from the first to the second part and I think that'd involve changing hitbox properties. You'd have a hitbox on the charge animation which does nothing but detect a collision. When it detects a collision, transition into the swing. It's simple in theory, idk about in practice tho.

I dont know if hurtbox detection would work that well because of the way the animations are set up. By the time the hurtboxes are detected and he finishes swinging, he'd completely miss. I really think the move needs to be timed manually in order to work

I'm not able to test atm and re-look at the move, but if I recall, you already have that first swing, but it's like on his way up rather than as he's winding up. You want the first swing to come out fast so it can be used defensively. He shouldn't have a super reliable Up+B OOS, so making it hit on only one side and be weak.

Ah ok i see what you mean now. So you think there should be a hitbox at the beginning, then the first swing and the second? Or should i get rid of the hitbox on the first swing?

Literally just make it identical startup and endlag, speed and distance covered as his default DownB, but use the animation you have currently. The only difference between the two moves should be the sword vs the foot, which is HUGE if done correctly. Small changes go a long way, you'd be surprised. The main difference should be that the move should hit further in front of him because of the sword AND it should be disjointed (again, because it's a sword). That's a big enough difference to give the move a slightly different application in combat.

Okay I'll think about this. I see what you mean about the sword being in front and it being disjointed and all, but I really would like to make the move have completely different mechanics than the original. I know one big issue people have had about the sword being added was actually that it would imbalance his moveset completely because of the range and the fact that it is disjointed. So another thing i was aiming for was to change his mechanics so that the sword moveset has its own unique feel, while still being balanced. I mean if the moves worked the same (even with slight speed differences) they would still be pretty OP. I also think this concept of changing up some mechanics gives people more of a reason to switch the move set up.

So... what if I shortened the distance he moves and slow down the speed he moves at slightly? Do you think that would make it feel less out of place without nerfing its usefulness? (obviously this would take some trial and error to get everything to work just right, but do you think that could be a decent compromise?)


EDIT:

On another note.. Do you have any animation tips for me? I find it hard to make changes to animations without them getting all messed up, so i end up copying and pasting over frames that i dont want changed, and I think it ends up making the filesize too large. How do i pick and choose what frames to clear so that there are less keyframes and the animation size is smaller?

 

[\Apples]

I duno man, to me no matter how you put it, his normal moveset still is cloned. He should never have been based off of C falcon in any way shape or form. And ya when it comes to the sword everything is basically different, but i still wanted to add some more differentiation into it.

Honestly, I think he's different enough. Perhaps a more important point is that if he's too different, he may not be accepted by the competitive community. That may or may not be important to you though.

I dont know if hurtbox detection would work that well because of the way the animations are set up. By the time the hurtboxes are detected and he finishes swinging, he'd completely miss. I really think the move needs to be timed manually in order to work

Well, you'd just have to have the swing activate faster, what frame does his Melee Side+B uppercut come out after his boost animation detects a connection? It may be 1 frame. Just use a trail effect and it'll look pretty normal by Melee standards. It doesn't have to match the animation in this case, smashers are already accustomed to seeing this in other moves.

Ah ok i see what you mean now. So you think there should be a hitbox at the beginning, then the first swing and the second? Or should i get rid of the hitbox on the first swing?

I was suggesting that you just have the first swing come out earlier and have it start as he's leaving the ground. I think we should test it for sure, but I've been having second thoughts. I'm not sure he should have a solid defensive option OOS. I think if he's using the sword, he should be slower with much more range and disjoints so that he has a much easier time keeping opponents away from him, but once an opponent gets in on him he has a lot of trouble getting them off him. He definitely should have options OOS, but they should be specific to situations like his classic moveset.

Okay I'll think about this. I see what you mean about the sword being in front and it being disjointed and all, but I really would like to make the move have completely different mechanics than the original. I know one big issue people have had about the sword being added was actually that it would imbalance his moveset completely because of the range and the fact that it is disjointed. So another thing i was aiming for was to change his mechanics so that the sword moveset has its own unique feel, while still being balanced. I mean if the moves worked the same (even with slight speed differences) they would still be pretty OP. I also think this concept of changing up some mechanics gives people more of a reason to switch the move set up.

I don't think they'd be OP if done correctly. But I think your best balancing references are in Ashingda's earlier builds. Slower startup on aerials with more range is what you want. The sword Uair should really be his bread and butter. And IMO should hit in front of him but not behind him. I think it should come out a few frames slower than his classic Uair, have a shorter active frame duration (so the speed of the swing should be quicker), and longer endlag. I think he should not be able to drop from the ledge, jump and Uair and regrab the ledge. So it should have endlag a little closer to the endlag on Marth's Uair. Which makes sense since the moves are similar.

So... what if I shortened the distance he moves and slow down the speed he moves at slightly? Do you think that would make it feel less out of place without nerfing its usefulness? (obviously this would take some trial and error to get everything to work just right, but do you think that could be a decent compromise?)

We'd have to discuss the purpose of that then. Why do you want him to have such a fast mobility option? If it's not a mobility option, what is the purpose of it in his kit? Will he have follow ups off it or is it a kill move? How does it work in relation to the rest of his moves and mobility properties? Is there an ideal time during the move to hit with it? Can you edge cancel it? Why or why not? Currently, I just don't see why he "deserves" to have such an an ability.

On another note.. Do you have any animation tips for me? I find it hard to make changes to animations without them getting all messed up, so i end up copying and pasting over frames that i dont want changed, and I think it ends up making the filesize too large. How do i pick and choose what frames to clear so that there are less keyframes and the animation size is smaller?

I am not the guy to ask for advice when it comes to BrawlBox at all. There's a reason I don't tinker with it, it's an annoying piece of software to use especially when you don't use it regularly.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Honestly, I think he's different enough. Perhaps a more important point is that if he's too different, he may not be accepted by the competitive community. That may or may not be important to you though.

I def have the competitive community in mind. Again I'm not a mod ninja like the PMBR, and I'm one guy so this Isn't gona be a perfect hack. But I certainly think that someone like the PMBR can create a COMPLETELY new move set that is still competitive. The big issue isn't creating a good competitive moveset in this case, it's more the Ganondorf fans that are gona poop their pants and cry if Ganondorfs move set changes. Though I've said this in a million other forums, if possible I think it would be beautiful if there were 2 iterations of Ganondorf - One as he is now (with a sword move set switch based on TP) and OOT Ganondorf with a separate move set based on OOT. Anyway moving on..

Well, you'd just have to have the swing activate faster, what frame does his Melee Side+B uppercut come out after his boost animation detects a connection? It may be 1 frame. Just use a trail effect and it'll look pretty normal by Melee standards. It doesn't have to match the animation in this case, smashers are already accustomed to seeing this in other moves.

but its the way he moves with the attack. 1 it would look really weird to speed it up too much (ive tried trust me), and 2 since he steps forward and there's an arc with the sword it would miss anyone directly in front. The way the uppercut works (and ikes side B even), the attack happens right in front of the character to start. so it doesn't miss. I duno how to explain exactly, hope that makes sense.

We'd have to discuss the purpose of that then. Why do you want him to have such a fast mobility option? If it's not a mobility option, what is the purpose of it in his kit? Will he have follow ups off it or is it a kill move? How does it work in relation to the rest of his moves and mobility properties? Is there an ideal time during the move to hit with it? Can you edge cancel it? Why or why not? Currently, I just don't see why he "deserves" to have such an an ability.

Okay so the purpose of this move in my mind is this:

He flys by quickly doing a small amount of damage, and the damaged enemy ends up being hit into Ganondorfs attack radius after the attack is completed. Before, the dark kick was super powerful with a lot or knockback. I'm removing this ability and giving him a quick combo set up move. A main concern with the original hack was that there was not a lot of combo potential and every move was kind of its own move, I wanted to rework the move set so that it can be used to C-C-C-combo better.

So, currently if Ganon hits someone with the tip of the sword at the very beginning of the animation, a little more damage and knockback is given. It still is not that powerful and really just puts the victim into a nice spot for a follow up. That is basically what i want the move to do, and for the most part it does that well right now.. it sounds like for you it's just a matter of making sure it doesn't do other stuff as well (like make it really easy to kill people near the edge of the stage, or look weird cause he moves too fast too far). What do you think? And how would you make this work better?

 

[\Apples]

Fair points on all of the above. I don't want to make any more criticisms until I have a chance to play with this build again. (I've been very busy, I should be able to do that tonight though.)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Fair points on all of the above. I don't want to make any more criticisms until I have a chance to play with this build again. (I've been very busy, I should be able to do that tonight though.)

K sounds good. How do u like the down b concept? (is there a chance you didnt get to play with it enough to see how it works?)

 

[\Apples]

K sounds good. How do u like the down b concept? (is there a chance you didnt get to play with it enough to see how it works?)

I didn't get to play against a human opponent, nobody I play with wanted to mess with it (although they think the idea of Ganon with a sword is cool, they all hated that Down+B).

I'm gonna be playing tomorrow, but I may not be able to give you much feedback until perhaps the day after. I'll keep you posted.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I didn't get to play against a human opponent, nobody I play with wanted to mess with it (although they think the idea of Ganon with a sword is cool, they all hated that Down+B).

I'm gonna be playing tomorrow, but I may not be able to give you much feedback until perhaps the day after. I'll keep you posted.

K cool thanks

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

So I played a match with some good friends and first I feel like you shouldn't be able to dodge out of pulling out the sword, I feel like switching playstyles mid match should be punishable much like samus, I wouldn't mind if you gave him a sec of invincibility frame as he looks upon the sword but having him roll out seems a bit too unfair seeing how not all the characters have swords or just the ability to roll out of their swap, also I feel as though his Side-B(which I do enjoy using) lacks any real faults it like if you added the ability to roll out of your hybrid lucario's Side-B, as well the damage and knockback being well too good I feel like this would be great for brawl(but for PM Idk if it was toned done just a bit), It is like the sword Ganon I always wanted, But man I don't know if I it want anymore(maybe you just have to mess with it so more, It might just be a matter of opinion, or a matter of first impressions in a real match).

off topic, but since you mentioned lucario, do you have any feedback for him? If you want you can post on the lucario thread... but i dont care either way.

 

[TheSuperestSmashBros]

Hey BronzeGreekGod! I just stumbled upon this thread and want to help out however me and my brother can. I started a thread on BrawlVault, but that hasn't really gone anywhere yet, but its all about creating the most character-appropriate Ganondorf yet. I am going to see what you've come up with so far and check back in here once i've tested it out! Thanks for working on Ganondorf!

 

[Freduardo]

BronzeGreekGod, between the hybrid lucario and sword Ganon, cool stuff! Enjoy it lots! Do you think there are any other characters you may want to make have taunt incited weapon pulls/moveset changes? I really like the ability to do that.

 

[squeakyboots13]

Something that bugs me: When SwordGanon does his neutral-B, he slides forward a bit. If he does it on a ledge, he'll slide off and plummet down to his death.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Something that bugs me: When SwordGanon does his neutral-B, he slides forward a bit. If he does it on a ledge, he'll slide off and plummet down to his death.

you can jump out of it in the air

 

[Durnehviir]

I think his nuetral a non sword should be changed back .____. To the thunder punch not the one it is now where it pushes opponents away

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I think his nuetral a non sword should be changed back .____. To the thunder punch not the one it is now where it pushes opponents away

it does both though. A direct hit punches while at a distance you push people away.

 

[Herp McDerp]

Hey, I downloaded this mod, put it on my sd card then extracted, but it doesn't work. Any idea what i'm doing wrong?

 

[Brosach]

Hey, I downloaded this mod, put it on my sd card then extracted, but it doesn't work. Any idea what i'm doing wrong?

you are supposed to replace the FitGanon.pac and FitGanonMotionEtc.pac files in projectm\pf\fighter\ganon with the files you get from the zip once you rename them to there corresponding name file

 

[Herp McDerp]

Thank you so much. Never would have figured this out on my own

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

2.8 posted!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/bcaszb67gplnm6e/ganon(2).rar

 

[Narpas_sword]

it does both though. A direct hit punches while at a distance you push people away.

I think normal ganon should stay exactly like PM ganon was

 

[Brosach]

I know how you feel man, maybe BGG can seperate the two versions in case we would like to test either of either of the two, up to him though.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Heres a video for anyone who wants to see the hack before using it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq83pOHzwRQ

and there are more plans being set in motion for this hack. I'll see how things go, I may restore all ganons normal moves eventually.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Very nice I like the video gonna download soon to test. What normal Ganon moves did you change though? I believe you changed U-smash to brawl version but except that?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Hey bronze god I tested the mod an I really like it. Except the change to regular Ganon's flame choke. I like the "new" up smash and the new jab (although instead of a push I would just have it damage and knock back like the regular jab, just with more reach) but I just don't like the new angle the side B send now it ruins a lot of my combos.

So I suggest you revert it back.
Another suggestion, if your changing PM Ganon's moves I suggest an increase in horizontal range on the up smash and the hitbox should to be out a little longer that way its still like 2 kicks. Also maybe change warlock punch? And use the warlock punch animation for a new side smash.
And finally if you can make the down smash either link better or just be more like C. Falcon's but stronger.

Either way, great job with the sword mod I really like it. Great animations.
And before the next full version, could you just have a 2.8b with the flame choke back to normal? And any other addition you may want to add?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

upon further testing (against human players) i discovered the up tilt has a wind box on it now, which I like... but why did you take away the first weak hit of it? why not have both hits AND the wind box?
Also the side B in sword mode is really nice but i wish i could press A and attack as soon as i start it for short range attacks. the delay between executing the move and pressing A should be a lot shorter, also side smash should link better, and the second hit shouldn't be as fast (make the hitbox stay out longer).

and if your "fixing" PM Ganon, you should make his smashes stronger and have a little more range. and how about a grab range increase?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

K well I don't plan on changing too much on PM ganon, the changes ive made are very minor and simple changes. The reason i changed the angle of his flame choke is because i felt that dropping straight to the ground was actually super cheap and op. it makes it too easy to warlock kick everyone to their doom. Now that is an easy tiny fix.. do you have project smash attacks? I could explain how to fix that reallyyy easily. if not i can eventually get around to releasing a version with the old flame choke angle. Also, if you play around with the way ive made it you'll find some new combos you can do

I brought the wind effect back into his up tilt cause i felt as though that was a nice touch to his old axe kick, so i wanted that back in some way. The extra little hitbox i think would be a bit too much.. the wind effect really sucks them into the right place to get crushed. play around with it and you'll see.

ill look into side b and activating it sooner. I think if you could attack any sooner the transition would be crappy though.

We plan on changing his grabs but mostly just to change what hand he grabs with so he isnt grabbing with his sword hand when he has his sword out. i dont think he needs more of a grab range. A new grab game may be put together for another ganondorf hack we're thinking of for the future.

Thanks for the feedback

 

[Dng3]

This is a great update to an already amazing mod. I just had one nitpick and it's the old up smash being the new up-tilt. It seems like it should have been the other way around with the current up smash being Ganon's up-tilt instead. Up-tilt fits better as a up smash in my opinion due to it's more epic presentation while the new up smash should be his up-tilt.

That's my only gripe but aside from that, thank you for your work. This is super fun to use.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

K well I don't plan on changing too much on PM ganon, the changes ive made are very minor and simple changes. The reason i changed the angle of his flame choke is because i felt that dropping straight to the ground was actually super cheap and op. it makes it too easy to warlock kick everyone to their doom. Now that is an easy tiny fix.. do you have project smash attacks? I could explain how to fix that reallyyy easily. if not i can eventually get around to releasing a version with the old flame choke angle. Also, if you play around with the way ive made it you'll find some new combos you can do

I brought the wind effect back into his up tilt cause i felt as though that was a nice touch to his old axe kick, so i wanted that back in some way. The extra little hitbox i think would be a bit too much.. the wind effect really sucks them into the right place to get crushed. play around with it and you'll see.

ill look into side b and activating it sooner. I think if you could attack any sooner the transition would be crappy though.

We plan on changing his grabs but mostly just to change what hand he grabs with so he isnt grabbing with his sword hand when he has his sword out. i dont think he needs more of a grab range. A new grab game may be put together for another ganondorf hack we're thinking of for the future.

Thanks for the feedback

I don't have project smash attacks but I'm willing to fiddle around with it. I just need a download link and instructions.

 

[IHaveAName]

My apologies for not keeping up with this mod. I'll install this mod tonight and I'll report my findings in a day or two.

 

[Caporai]

Caporai here.

I tried 2.8 version of Sword Ganon, and I really like his new side B (although i miss his flame choke but that goes to Fist Ganon).

But I realized that u manage to put some moves during his attack (like his 2nd Fsmash and A attack during Side B ).

Is there a way to input his Flame choke attack as a B or Z input during his sword run? (May be hard to pull since his left grab arm is the front direction during his sword run)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Caporai here.

I tried 2.8 version of Sword Ganon, and I really like his new side B (although i miss his flame choke but that goes to Fist Ganon).

But I realized that u manage to put some moves during his attack (like his 2nd Fsmash and A attack during Side B ).

Is there a way to input his Flame choke attack as a B or Z input during his sword run? (May be hard to pull since his left grab arm is the front direction during his sword run)

Funny you say that, i'm contemplating trying to turn side Z on the ground and in air into the flame choke. We'll see how it goes

 

[Brosach]

I just had an idea, what if you switch up the F-tilt and the F-smash

 

[Brosach]

and the jab with the new F-smash

 

[Brosach]

i.e. F-smash(the vertical slash[Jab]), F-tilt(eblow-to-sword combo[Smash]), Jab(SpartaKick[F-tilt])

 

[Caporai]

Hi Bronze, Caporai here again with some crazy thoughts that I wanted to share (Although this is more off-topic from his Sword Ganon).

I was wondering if it possible for you to make another kit for him in the future? (not replacing his Sword Ganon for D-taunt, but adding another stance like for his U-taunt as Mage Ganon)
The playstyle is like mix of Snake, Lucario and Zelda (like Din's Fire and Farore's wind) but with his own animation and darkness "effect and flags", while some of his attacks comes from True Ganondorf.

-Dash Animation is True Ganondorf Hover Dash.
-D-Smash is like Snakes Landmine, but the animation is similar as Mewtwo D-Smash.
-U-Smash is True Ganondorf magic U-Smash.

-Up B is Farore's Wind (for using U-taunt spinning animation for initial vanish and reappear as U-taunt release animation while the effects are same as his dark portal entry)
Or use KJP Dark Lord Up-B.
-Side B is Zelda's Din's Fire along with the hover, but with Dark Orb effects.
-Neutral B is Like Ashingda Warlock Punch Projectile but really slow moving (Like Lucario's Super Aura Sphere).
-Down B could be something unique like pulling opponent towards him from a great distance (same length as Side-B dash). if an opponent gets too close as Ground Down B, He/she will be grabbed by Ganondorf like Ground Flame Choke and toss them away from him (Like your 2.8 version).

More ideas will come but this is for the moment I can think of .

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

If I work on a magic move set it wont fit into his current move set, there isnt enough space in his file to do it.

Also, the move set I wana make will strongly be based off of ganondorf and phantom ganon from OOT. I can see if any of your ideas can fit in with this