Brawl gameplay: should it be like melee or 64?

[jimmyjoe]

There is already a thread on how brawl should not be like Melee 2.0, but do you think it should find a balance between what worked well for both melee and smash 64?

For instance, the game is already supposed to be slower than melee, and focus on arial combat.
Melee gave us a lot more advanced techs and characters, where 64 was balanced and simpler, but an equally beautiful system for mindgames.

Personally I feel that brawl should lie somewhere between the two games. I am skilled at SSB but not melee, though I'm no nOOb

I may be biased cause i love 64, but I would prefer a slowed down game, while still being given a plethora of technical options like those melee provides, but with more balanced characters and simpler stages, like the original.

 

[spikehappy07]

I see where you're going with this, and my response is: Yes, they're going to mix in those two games into a new one. The simplicity of first with adanced techniques from the second will make the third the best it can be.

I like to add this on: Do you like the announcer and crowd voices from ssb64 or melee? I like ssb64=D

 

[jimmyjoe]

I definitely like the crowd voices and announcer from 64 better too!

 

[WoapGang]

I definitely like the crowd voices and announcer from 64 better too!

Yea....in SSB 64 when the announcer says, "Failure!" i REALLY feel like a failure lol

 

[NES n00b]

. . . . Smash 64 was no where near balanced.

I like the sound effects and atmosphere from Smash 64, but Melee game mechanics is the way to go. It was smoother, had no outrageous hitstun, no DI except Smash DI in some situations, rediculous character imbalances (worse than Melee's IMO >_<), and just had less options in general combat like air dodging and sidestepping.

Smash 64 had advance techs, too. Just not as many. . . . . . . .

 

[Heavyarms2050]

ssbb is like halo3, mix in the old stuff to completely satisfy all the fans and you get one hell of a good game

 

[Captain_Obvious]

. . . . Smash 64 was no where near balanced.

I like the sound effects and atmosphere from Smash 64, but Melee game mechanics is the way to go. It was smoother, had no outrageous hitstun, no DI except Smash DI in some situations, rediculous character imbalances (worse than Melee's IMO >_<), and just had less options in general combat like air dodging and sidestepping.

Smash 64 had advance techs, too. Just not as many. . . . . . . .

Before I say anything else, I want to make it clear that Smash 64 was more balanced than Melee overall. The melee tier list is relatively solid, whereas the SSB tier list is much more arbitrary. This is because every character in SSB can compete on a high level, which is an idea that should be brought into Brawl. Secondly, all but one character in SSB is unique, unlike the rediculous number of clones in SSBM. Also, the higher aerial time and the chunkier feel of the game with the hitstun are all things that would make Brawl a much better game.

However, Melee does have plenty that it can offer. The depth of advanced techniques and ease of DI found in Melee are the two things I'd really want in Brawl, as they make Melee the great competetive game that it is. I think a bit of "chunkiness" in the feel of the game would be a plus, and I do believe that Brawl will include this.

Overall, it's important to realize that both of these games have plenty to offer Brawl. I dream that every character in Brawl will be completely unique and "top-tier", allowing for true competition with ALL characters, not just a select few.

- Captain R.D. Obvious

 

[BubbleShield]

i hope it does have ssb64 flavor in there. When I first played Melee, I was like wtf happened

 

[jimmyjoe]

. . . . Smash 64 was no where near balanced.

I like the sound effects and atmosphere from Smash 64, but Melee game mechanics is the way to go. It was smoother, had no outrageous hitstun, no DI except Smash DI in some situations, rediculous character imbalances (worse than Melee's IMO >_<), and just had less options in general combat like air dodging and sidestepping.

Smash 64 had advance techs, too. Just not as many. . . . . . . .

64 provides less options for general combat... very true, but there were less "incorrect" options in a given situation for 64, which is neither necessarily better or worse, just simpler.

In situations such as team battle and free for all, 64 has plenty of character imbalances, but if you experiment with the supposed lower teir characters enough and are good with z-cancels and other advanced techs, all characters are very dangerous in the right hands in a one-on-one game.

For anybody who hasn't seen a good 64 link check out Isai's link videos.

Well said Captain Obvious, also chunkiness is a good word to describe what i never had a word for :')

I initially felt the same way Bubblesheild

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

A mix between the two. The speed of the game should be more meleeish than sixtyfoish, tho.

 

[blayde_axel]

Yea....in SSB 64 when the announcer says, "Failure!" i REALLY feel like a failure lol

Man, you know how to bring back bad memories... lol.

Not only did he call you a failure... but the music was so sad if you lose.

 

[jimmyjoe]

A mix between the two. The speed of the game should be more meleeish than sixtyfoish, tho.

It already looks like it heading in that direction from the gameplay vids so far

 

[brandutt845]

I've noticed that everything is mixed in the game. It has an announcer similar to 64, a victory sequence that's like 64, the speed of gameplay, some of it's items. It's got alot of 64 mechanics. As far as Melee, It's got everthing else. What Brawl's bringing to the table: New modes, Items, Characters, Stages, ONLINE

 

[blayde_axel]

Anyway, I love 64. Actually, more than I love Melee. It just has a different feel to it. So, I'm happy that it's going back to its roots.

So... it seems like the speed is... 64---Brawl---Melee.

 

[Rubydragon]

Well, we won't get simple stages that's for sure. I do want it to be a bit slower than melee, so you can actually see and hear the crazy combos your character does. For example, Samus' screw attack in '64. You could hear like 10 sounds if you hit your enemy correctly, playing the original a few days ago made me realize this. I thought it was so cool.

 

[jimmyjoe]

64--brawl--melee sounds good to me! but it'll probably be 64------------brawl---melee

as for samus screw attaCk, it looks like it is somewhat slowed down again from the videos i've seen

 

[blayde_axel]

The Screw gave it away for me. I'm actually pretty happy about it.

Isn't the Mario Tornado slower also?

 

[spikehappy07]

I think they slowed these rapid attacks so people will see the damage being done

 

[Talendime]

Not to forget DK's ground-pound, that was really slowed as well..

 

[UltimateShinigami]

The Screw gave it away for me. I'm actually pretty happy about it.

Isn't the Mario Tornado slower also?

darn it. i wanted to say it first but yeah, from the demo video's that came out i guess today, when you see the guy playing as samus, the screw attack sucks you in and stuns you out so you take the fulll damage and can't hit her until after she lands just like in 64.

 

[greenblob]

Wait, you want Brawl to be like Smash 64? So you want half the game to be about zero-to-death combos? I mean, I don't mind, but I thought you guys wanted to shorten the gap between the competitive and non-competitive crowds.

 

[BentoBox]

e) None of the above

 

[2007]

first off, IF I'M WRONG, DON'T FLAME ME. just tell me I'm wrong.

ANYWAYS..
Everyone remembers how in SSB64 and attack went fast when it missed and slowed down when it hit (ie: Pikachu's fair, Mario's vB, Samus' ^B). after seeing some of the gameplay vids (and even seeing Mario's dair (former vB) in the 11-06 trailer) I noticed that they've sort of brought the slower effect back. I also saw it with Samus' screw attack in one of the recent vids.

BTW, I think they should cross them. give Dr. Mario the recovery Mario had in '64, and give Pika back his ariels from the same game. oh, and give Kirby a happy medium.

yeah, I think it should be more 64 oriented, but that's just me.
last thing: voices must be from 64, since Melee ones are homosexual ie: GAY.

=2007=

 

[NES n00b]

I never realized so many people like 0 to death combos, no lag from arials, really powerful grabs, easy sheild pressuring games due to huge sheild stun, a slower game overall, and the retardedness of Kirby and Pikachu. Isai is just good. Doesn't mean that it is truly "balanced." Kirby and Pikachu are much much much better than the other characters and the only people besides Isai play as either those two top tier characters or Fox/Falcon. Go ahead, see how well Link against Kirby or Pikachu will turn out. It won't be pretty, that is for sure.

If you think going towards Smash 64 gameplay will make the gap between pros and n00bs smaller, you are wrong and it will be more rough for them as they get infinited comboed. <_<

 

[Metadour-2]

I never realized so many people like 0 to death combos, no lag from arials, really powerful grabs, easy sheild pressuring games due to huge sheild stun, a slower game overall, and the retardedness of Kirby and Pikachu. Isai is just good. Doesn't mean that it is truly "balanced." Kirby and Pikachu are much much much better than the other characters and the only people besides Isai play as either those two top tier characters or Fox/Falcon. Go ahead, see how well Link against Kirby or Pikachu will turn out. It won't be pretty, that is for sure.

If you think going towards Smash 64 gameplay will make the gap between pros and n00bs smaller, you are wrong and it will be more rough for them as they get infinited comboed. <_<

QFT.

honestly, after getting so used to melee's metagame, i'd have a horrible time with a slower game. If l-canceling is back (i haven't heard) the difference between an l-cancel that missed and was fast and one that hit and took 4204082508 frames of repeatedly hitting the opponent with fox's dair would be horrid.

i would like to be one of the first to say keep it relatively the same pace.
and seeing the gameplay vids, it looks near the same except for the impact animations.
the high speeds, the unique control and winning method is what made melee as great as it was.
not to say i don't want change, cause i want a lot, but if it ain't broke...


don't fix it.

 

[Shadoshi]

I personally wish it was faster. :/ But ya'know, what ever.

 

[Sculelos]

Melee's speed felt really fast when I first played it but since I've gotten quite used to it.

I'd say the gameplay videos of brawl look almost the same speed as melee except for maby a little slower, but it slower. 64 is really really slow in comparison.

But I loved Smash 64, just Melee was a drastic improvement. If Brawl is much better then Melee it will take it's place as my favorite game.

 

[omfgomfg]

i'd prefer it to be exactly like 64 except with a relatively balanced roster
and of course the z-cancelling

 

[cam`]

I never realized so many people like 0 to death combos, no lag from arials, really powerful grabs, easy sheild pressuring games due to huge sheild stun, a slower game overall, and the retardedness of Kirby and Pikachu. Isai is just good. Doesn't mean that it is truly "balanced." Kirby and Pikachu are much much much better than the other characters and the only people besides Isai play as either those two top tier characters or Fox/Falcon.

yeah because that's all ssb64 was. c h e r r y p i c k i n g

64 is really slow but i much prefer its speed to melee. the differences between casual and highlevel play are as huge in melee as they are in 64, and if anything changes that in brawl it will most likely be online play exposing people to advanced techs etc rather than any actual gameplay element. at least in 64 you can see where your mistakes are to improve them, pit a casual vs a 'hardcore' in melee and the casual player won't even be able to process what's happening before he's x-stocked.

 

[bluekitsune13]

first off, IF I'M WRONG, DON'T FLAME ME. just tell me I'm wrong.

ANYWAYS..
Everyone remembers how in SSB64 and attack went fast when it missed and slowed down when it hit (ie: Pikachu's fair, Mario's vB, Samus' ^B). after seeing some of the gameplay vids (and even seeing Mario's dair (former vB) in the 11-06 trailer) I noticed that they've sort of brought the slower effect back. I also saw it with Samus' screw attack in one of the recent vids.

Dude, I totally agree. That's one of the first things I noticed. I've actually gone back to play SSB64 just to get a feel for that again. My idea is to give Brawl a happy medium.

My ideal Brawl would have the slow-mo combos that SSB64 had, but also have all of the advanced moves Melee brought to the table like air dodging.

 

[NES n00b]

yeah because that's all ssb64 was. c h e r r y p i c k i n g

Of course that is not all it was, but heck if people do not see the implications of what having Smash 64 gameplay mechanics are. It is opinion of course in all these matters so I guess people can feel like it is more balanced and less "gay" I guess. <_<

 

[greenblob]

yeah because that's all ssb64 was. c h e r r y p i c k i n g

64 is really slow but i much prefer its speed to melee. the differences between casual and highlevel play are as huge in melee as they are in 64, and if anything changes that in brawl it will most likely be online play exposing people to advanced techs etc rather than any actual gameplay element. at least in 64 you can see where your mistakes are to improve them, pit a casual vs a 'hardcore' in melee and the casual player won't even be able to process what's happening before he's x-stocked.

If you pit a casual Smash 64 player against even a semi-decent competitive player, chances are the competitive player will end up 5-stocking the casual player (we generally play 5-stock in Smash 64). It'll basically be 5 zero-to-death combos right after another. I'm not saying that Smash 64 is a deeper game than Melee, but there's a bigger leap between the lowest level competitive player and the highest level casual player because learning all the zero-to-death combos are essential.

I once played someone who was good at video games in general, but didn't play Smash 64 competitively. He managed to get me a couple times because my approaches are so horrible, but for the most part, it was me zero-to-death comboing the entire time. The only thing he really learned from our matches is that if I get one hit in, he might as well put his controller down because there's no getting out of the combo.

 

[cam`]

zero to death combos barely begin to constitute competitive ssb. watch even isai's videos and you'll see this is true.

 

[greenblob]

You're joking, right?
The only reason some of them are not zero-to-death combos is that not all hits lead into combos. However, you'll notice that once either player manages to land a combo starter, the other player is as good as dead.

Smash 64 is 50% combos (includes setting up combos and zero-to-death combos), 25% edgegame, 12.5% camping, and 12.5% high-percent kills due to a missed finisher.

 

[GoldenS1104]

At first I didn't like the speed of Melee but I adapted after the first month, so I like it the way it is now. Also, you said 64 had more balance... were we playing the same game? A n00b could own as kirby cause of awesome throwing and recovery abilities, and link was the only character with a sword (he was fast and powerful). Melee had more balance, but there's still room for improvement.

 

[greenblob]

Well, when you mean "balance," what kind of balance are you talking about? Balance at the newbie level or balance at the metagame?

 

[cam`]

0-death combos make up a fraction of your '50%.' no one is debating that long combos are crucial to gameplay but you're pretty wrong if you think ssb64 starts and stops at the first shffl, jab, tilt, whatever.

 

[STEREO_226]

it will definantely be a combonation of the two games. i think it's going back to the original formula of the original, which is good, i like Melee, but Brawl is going back to its roots by the looks of the gameplay. It looks easier, but still hardcore enough to please all the hardcore gamers. it's a good idea. Please dont flame me for saying this, but if SSBB was a Melee 2.0 it would most likely be a failure.

 

[jimmyjoe]

combos are a big part of the game indeed, but it is noteworthy that, all newbs aside, at the most advanced levels of this game, there is beautifully designed balance of charaters.

Now it is hardly arguable that melee is more balanced , but it would be much harder to balance a game with way more characters and much more advanced techniques, let alone adv tech that may or may not have sliped under the radar of the development team i.e. "wavedash"

64 was easier to balance all characters givin the adv. techs available in that game, I hope they can balance BRAWL first and formost, hopefully without having to sacrifice # of characters or techs

 

[tafutureboy]

hoping for more 64 in it.....that game had better play....but melee had better stuff...