Brawl Final Smashes, Tournament Rules/Possibilities Discussion

[Drunken_Dragon]

obviously, nothing will be certian untill the game is out and played for a while. but what are you assuming the possiblities are?


esentially, the concept has been around for a long time. Final smashes are super moves. dispite everything shown, most of it has been done before. some of them are bit more standard. (marios shinku hadoken, links auto combo etc.) some of them not so standard ( giga koopa, yoshi's dragon super.) the thing is, sakurai has to know competative play dosent use items.

items are the fun/wacky off shoot way to play casually. they are random, and thusly unfair. smash already has a fair bit of randomness built in. (misfires etc.) but thats also acceptable in competative play. (ie: zappa and faust in GG)

IF the ONLY way to do a super is by getting a smash ball, and only then with items on. yes, it will be most likely impossible for them to be used in competative play. however, if there are other options, then they most likely can be incorperated.

ie: there could be a set "stock" of final smashes. you could start off with 1 or 2. smash has life stock. so no matter how BROKEN something is, if you could only do it once per match, theres no reason why it should be banned. say links is an instant kill (which i doubt it will be) if he can only do it once a match, he has one chance to do it, and thats it. maybe he takes the safe route, combos into it, uses it to punish a blatant disadvantage etc. but if he misuses it, its gone. you have instant kills in GG, use them and miss your meter is gone, you could possibly still win, but your at a horrible disadvantage.

not only that, but that would add a great deal more strategy

thats my theory, youll be able to set the amount of final smashes you start with. im thinking 1 or 2 at most. (half or a quarter of stocks). this has been done before also, pretty well too. (alpha 3, a game where you could lose 80% to one vism meter)

the thing is about their balance, and other issues. is they even resemble standard super move fare. marios super fireball will probly have bad recovery, have invincibility on start up, and be blockable. links auto combo will probly have a blockable dash at the begining, do nothing on block/whiff, and have horrible recovery. yoshi and koopas supers will most likely not last a very long time. (probly 15-30 seconds, and thats pushing it) and they most likely wont be invicible or anything, just have way better priority and damage.

imo, its just too early to "count out" supers.. i mean, smash isent pulling from some void of new crazy broken things. pretty much every thing (save for pits super) has been done before. i dont think they will be broken or abuseable, they will change the game however, which would be refreshing and fun.

your thoughts?

 

[Justin Wiles]

It's my understanding that the only reason that items are banned in Melee is because of the possibility of exploding crates/barrels/capsules.

Many argue that they are items are banned because fast characters will always reach them first... I'm of the opinion that you still have to be able to use them properly to do any damage. Let's remember also, that back when items were legit, half of them were banned anyway.

Is Peach banned because she can pull swords and bombs out of the ground?

If it weren't for exploding random ****, items may still be a part of Melee's tourney scene, and people would have a completely different view on them. By now we would have developed many ways to not only use items in the best, most skillful ways, but we would have also devised just as many counter-measures.

Anyway, what were we talking about? Well, personally, I'd like to see Smash balls used in Tournament play. No other items, though, but I guess we have to see.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Items are banned because they exoplode in your face and kill you.

YOU, my friend, are banned because there is about...two other topics already discussing this. And I think one of them has been closed because we have the first one to discuss this in.

-Pm me about my sig if you have questions. ;]

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

sorry, should my thread have been a fake post talking about how ive played brawl like and want to relay my super secrect info about the engine to you instead?

how many pages do i have to go back and revive a dead thread? why arent things stickied besides the podcast thread and release date thread? my fault for trying to have a real discussion i supose.

slightly more on topic:

lol i said they were random.. that encompasses items having random effects. (like exploding in your face for instance) and them spawning relativly randomly.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It's my understanding that the only reason that items are banned in Melee is because of the possibility of exploding crates/barrels/capsules.

Yeah, thats why the got banned. But people I think are very used to playing without items. I cant have very much fun if items are on, it feels like a random party game. Which is fine, for an hour. But I cant play it for 10 hours straight like I can melee without items, since that feels like a fighting game with depth.

Items ****ing blow.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Yeah, like I said, I prefer no items.

I think even if items could be included in tournament play for Brawl, the community will shy away from them because they want the Tekken-heads to respect us.

 

[Takeshi245]

This topic is getting repetitive. There have been multiple threads like this one. If people want to throw their own item tournaments, go ahead. Just know that I wouldn't join them.

 

[Noshiee]

They are banned not only couse they expode, but because they give advantage or disadvantage in some way.

 

[Adi]

The guardian angel of dead horses cries over this thread.

 

[Flamin Roy]

I like this thread items are cheap and for losers

 

[N1c2k3]

Wow, I feel bad for you, Drunken Dragon. 8 out of the 10 posts have been noobs talking about why items are banned. ITEMS ARE BANNED CAUSE THEY ADD A RANDOM ADVANTAGE TO A RANDOM PLAYER AT A RANDOM TIME, ****. I feel exactly the way you do, Dragon, having been of the same opinion/thoughts for the past few months. Being able to set the amount of Final Smashes you start with would be the best way (in my opinion it should only be one, makes it more epic/critical to hit-miss). It might be because of the fact that I've also dabbled competitively in other fighters that we share the same mindset/opinions, least on this topic. I'm sure either way, this game will be hella fun, more so that anyone has had with either of the past 2 games, and I'm also sure Sakurai will make the right decision, whatever it may be...

 

[Flamin Roy]

Wow, I feel bad for you, Drunken Dragon. 8 out of the 10 posts have been noobs talking about why items are banned. ITEMS ARE BANNED CAUSE THEY ADD A RANDOM ADVANTAGE TO A RANDOM PLAYER AT A RANDOM TIME, ****. I feel exactly the way you do, Dragon, having been of the same opinion/thoughts for the past few months. Being able to set the amount of Final Smashes you start with would be the best way (in my opinion it should only be one, makes it more epic/critical to hit-miss). It might be because of the fact that I've also dabbled competitively in other fighters that we share the same mindset/opinions, least on this topic. I'm sure either way, this game will be hella fun, more so that anyone has had with either of the past 2 games, and I'm also sure Sakurai will make the right decision, whatever it may be...

I FIND THAT OFFENSIVE I JUST A NOOB 2 SMASH BOARDS NOT THE GAME

 

[MookieRah]

Raise your hand if you were around when the original items debate was going on.
*raises hand*
Look, the slight random factor wasn't enough to ban items. The debate was at a stalemate for the longest time, and for all those who claim that items are for noobs and scrubs... well if you were reading the posts from the tournament players who defended items, I bet you would change your opinions pretty fast. The straw that broke the camels back though was indeed the exploding barrels and capsules which you couldn't turn off. It just became a potential liability and eventually it created a rather large upset. Because of that they were ultimately banned.

Yes, items add more randomness to the match, but it's not so drastic and huge that it caused an imbalance. There IS skill in using them as well. People need to realize this by now.

So yeah, don't diss items, especially if you don't know what you are talking about. We have grown accustomed to them not being a part of the game, but Brawl might be a different story. Also, if only one item had the highest chance of being in Brawl, it would be the final smash ball. You can only use it once per match, so it's highly unlikely to be game breaking. It would just add a new element to smash.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

You know, I could've sworn I started a topic very similar to this that is like, half way down the front page...

 

[Flamin Roy]

This thread is getting complicated

 

[SenorPresidente]

It would had been grate if they had just added some sort of gauge or meter like other fighting games. Actually for all we know this may actually be an option.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

randomness is randomness, youd figure the randomness thats already built into the characters would be enough, but no. need to have items spawning randomly too. reguardless of what they are they give advantage unnessisarily. ease of use negated because they are so hard to use theyed be unpractical. items are relativly easy as **** to use compared to some other things.

i want to fight the opponent and what they can do, not what was gifted to them by randomness. thats why items are used in tourny now right? lol do you think its cool to win/lose a match cause of luck? luck dosent take skill or ability.

back on topic... AGAIN:

i thought about a meter system, it would be cool, but hopefully they would have the forsight to get you meter the super turbo way. which means you only get meter if your attack is blocked or hit, or your hit or block. so you cant spam attacks (ala 3s) and build meter.

lol smash with ex moves would be too much.

hey, theres a health mode, so why not a meter mode?

side note: items = dont care.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

..esentially, the concept has been around for a long time. Final smashes are super moves. dispite everything shown, most of it has been done before. some of them are bit more standard. (marios shinku hadoken, links auto combo etc.) some of them not so standard ( giga koopa, yoshi's dragon super.) the thing is, sakurai has to know competative play dosent use items.

Wrong!

Sakurai is making the game for the majority, not the minority.

Emphasise Sakurai, just incase you see your name there instead.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

no, i assumed the man used logic and realised there are two ways to play a game, random, and competative. why do you think you have the option to turn off items to begin with and its so customizable?


also , thank you for clarifying 2 things.

1. that i am actually not sakurai.. because i gave the man some credit with his logical thinking about customization in the game.
annnd.

2. for expecting to have a thread with real discussion about the game. its much better to nitpick about wording and try to proove who has the bigger internet ****.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Still, and as it has been repeated many times even on this thread, items are commonly banned only because there's the totally unfair and uncontrollable chance that an exploding container will materialize just in front of you as you're about to let an attack go.

If containers -and explosive containers- could be deactivated, we would be seeing a lot of item tournaments along with the itemless ones. While they do give some advantages, i don't see them as unfair. So, fast characters can get to them quicker, but stages in melee tend to be small and the item can appear anywhere, maybe near the slower character.

Finally, saying that they should be banned because they give unfair advantages to some characters is like saying Fox should be banned because he was gifted with abilities no other character has. Or, they could do Fox-only tournaments, without items so the players have truly equal chances.

Finally, i remind you that being able to work around the unexpected is a skill on itself: it's called strategy. A good strategist should be able to expect and control surprise events such as the appearance of an item and make the most of it. True, you could say that this also applies to those cursed exploding containers, but those are a bit -too- unpredictable and unfair, so you can see why both pro-items and anti-items players agreed to ban them for that factor.

I'm sorry for the funny grammar, it's not my native language.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

then why arent capsule and explosive items just banned?

random is random. there is no "more random" or "less random" (unless your talking about windows number generator lol)

i said they give unfair advantages to certian PLAYERS not characters. i could care less who the characters are. because like i said, a good player can use it to its best advantage anyway. i never said anything about fox at all and its been brought up 3 times talking to me. no, character selection dosent matter to my point. they all have natural advantages and disadvantages.

ie: geifs walking 720s in ST... even if done perfectly, they only work 50% of the time.. thusly doing them is putting it working or not working entirely on luck.

randomness in the game results in there being a luck element involved, which has nothing to do with skill or ability. unfortunately there is a little randomness in even the most solid game. why would you want to add more?

risk vs reward. yes you could potentially be the one who gets the advantage. losing due to luck is just as bad as winning due to luck.

a game can never be perfectly balanced. even chess isent balanced based on who goes first, and its entirely balanced every other way. (aside from outside infulences) why would you WANT more randomness?

chess example cause im bored. say you get a pawn to the other side of the board, very very rare in good chess matches. what if you had to flip a coin every time to see if you got one there to see if you can swap it for a tier two peice? that would be stupid. the stratagy may or maynot pay off due to a variable beyond anyones control. well 50 50 chance is kinda dramatic eh? what about 90% that you would get one.. is it still worth going for? it being up to chance makes it VASTLY inferior to other options are you disposal simple because even if you do everything right, it might fail.


also, unexpected =/= random. using a unknown or strange strategy or pulling something out of your *** to win a match is unexpected. random is "oh, luigi misfired back negating my Edging". the thing about that random factor? you could even plan something if it happens. why? because even though that factor is random, the situations is happens in isent. luigi dosent just at anytime with no inputs do misfires. he only does them when doing green missle.

where are item spawn rates documented? what are the chances or items poping up and where are all their spawn points in every stage? (im actually curious about that now)

random is random. unfortunately, luck is a small factor in a good majority of games.

im really done with this thread too. i shouldent have brought it from the second page. -.- and we wonder why people from 4chan eff up our ****, and SRK dosent take us seriously..

 

[waffu]

There is a low, low chance that we could see final smashes in tourny play.

If one character has an overpowered final smash, banned. If items are not used in brawl, banned. If it ends up that tourny directors just don't want it, just another reason it will be banned. It sucks cause the super moves are always cool in fighting games Whoever plays MvC knows that huge energy beams, swords and millions of summons on screen at once is awesome.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

then why arent capsule and explosive items just banned?

If you're actually asking this, then you're definatly not the man to be asking the questions that you're asking in the first page of your thread.

You can't turn off capsules or boxes, and the chance that they explode is random. This has been in smash since 1999. Or in other words, you've had 8 years to notice this.

 

[Timat the Slayer]

If you're actually asking this, then you're definatly not the man to be asking the questions that you're asking in the first page of your thread.

You can't turn off capsules or boxes, and the chance that they explode is random. This has been in smash since 1999. Or in other words, you've had 8 years to notice this.

QFT

Items were a part of Tournament play for awhile, and the deciding factor to remove them was because of the random crates and capsules that you COULD NOT remove from the game.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

QFT

Items were a part of Tournament play for awhile, and the deciding factor to remove them was because of the random crates and capsules that you COULD NOT remove from the game.

And I would think that by now.. after all these years of playing without items.. who wants to turn them back on anyway? I cant play with items for more than an hour without wanting to play another game. Without items its a lot more fun, especially if you mix up 2v2s and 1v1s at smashfests..

yay teams

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

ive only been playing for 3 years, and hardly with items. i did not know that. i appologize

but.. that makes my earlier questions "better" than what i should be asking? elitism, yay.

"Defining factor" =/= "Sole Reason"

whats the random explosion suicide rate to item ko rate? probly not that high.

better yet, what was the item ko rate compared to the normal ko rate? probly much higher.

would you even attack a crate/capsule on purpose knowing it could explode? no.

that leaves explosive items/capsules spawning inside of your attack box/after input. etc. which would only kill you at high dmg

yeah ive seen it happen, but its certianly not a dominate thing. its much more likely for someone to get any random item that can be thrown to eg you much easier with little/no risk to themselves.

i dont see that logic. a player getting a random advantage and the results therein > a crate/box you KNOW could explode, exploding cause it fell into your attack.

that explosion could kill you, or it might happen when you have low dmg and not kill you. the dmg/ko potential with the opponent getting a decent item is far worse. given your situation, i could just give them a ko/free mix up etc. etc.

at least the exploding crate could happen to both of you if your close enough.

thats alot of stupid random factors. reguardless of what was decided, i disagree. i think all items are random and the benefits of skill gained from using them dont warrant the random factors involved.

edit: this is theory fighting, but the thing is, you dont assume the players suck and human error is a dominant factor. ie: "you have to use the item right" if he didnt, he deserved to lose reguardless.

yare yare

 

[fums63]

wait so can you open a smash ball with projectiles? wouldnt that make ivysaur's bullet seed useful?

 

[darkNES386]

I hope the exploding crates / casules will be an on/off feature this time around with Brawl. That will surely spicen up the discussion already about whether or not smash balls and other items will be allowed. Especially if that was the breaker of the tie last time.

argh... we just have to wait and see when Brawl comes out.... until then... frustrating speculation.

 

[BananaNut]

In my opinion, the smash ball would be ok for tournament play. The main reason being this.

There are no other items or anything else like stage hasards.

Lets say link is on one side of the stage, and Mario is on the other, then they fight and link knocks mario off the edge. While mario is recovering A smash ball appears.STOP!
Lets analyze this.

Since link has more control over the stage then mario, he has a better chance of getting the smash ball, and since the stage is bigger than the edges the smash ball has a better chance of appearing on or near the stage. So, link "earned" his final smash by dominating the stage.

Smash balls wouldn't unbalance tournament play, they woud just add a new element to the game. It's kinda like chess, control the center, and you control the game.

 

[darkNES386]

In my opinion, the smash ball would be ok for tournament play. The main reason being this.

There are no other items or anything else like stage hasards.

Lets say link is on one side of the stage, and Mario is on the other, then they fight and link knocks mario off the edge. While mario is recovering A smash ball appears.STOP!
Lets analyze this.

Since link has more control over the stage then mario, he has a better chance of getting the smash ball, and since the stage is bigger than the edges the smash ball has a better chance of appearing on or near the stage. So, link "earned" his final smash by dominating the stage.

Smash balls wouldn't unbalance tournament play, they woud just add a new element to the game. It's kinda like chess, control the center, and you control the game.

Well... using your example... to add more to the chaos... link could choose to go after mario since he is at the disadvantage off stage or he can risk letting mario recover and then possibly not get the smash ball... also... when he gets it , mario might recover and he might show up just in time to steal it from link or break it himself if link doesn't get it....

I hope I'm not the only one thinking that certain attacks send the smash ball flying across the screen while other attacks that act more as combos keep it close and safe to you.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

I agree, final smashes add to the fight, making players decisions just that much more important.

And unlike exploding crates and capsules, or even other items for that matter, a FS is built into a character meaning it will never change. This means you know what your opponent is capable of from the start and you (after practice of course) may be able to defend against it with some success.

Lets also remember that even with a Smash Ball being an item it won't mean its banned. As far as we know there are no fake smash balls that explode when attacked and you don't get it just because you're the first one to it. The Smash Balls add depth, excitment, and a form of stradigy that I'm sure some tourys will welcome into the fold.

 

[yoshi_fan]

And I would think that by now.. after all these years of playing without items.. who wants to turn them back on anyway? I cant play with items for more than an hour without wanting to play another game. Without items its a lot more fun, especially if you mix up 2v2s and 1v1s at smashfests..

yay teams

With items is definitaly as funny as without items.

I don't like playing with items. But i can't say is unfunny playing with items because it isn't true.