So first off, apologies for being so late with providing the summary of our discussion. Additionally, thank you to anybody who provided any insight on applications of brawl techniques. Furthermore, if anyone has corrections or additional information, please feel free to comment below!
In our discussion, we covered Footstooling, DACUS, AGT, GT, RAR, and Breversing+Wavebouncing.
[collapse="Footstooling"]
We determined that footstooling does have a few niche applications that should not be overlooked. In order to utilize this technique more effectively, it is sometimes recommended that the player bind the command to the jump button that they do not use (x or y) rather than to the default (dpad).
Applications for Roy that we discussed were for gimping Yoshi's recovery through DJ armor, gimping Falco in his firebird startup, and following up in comboing.
While the application against Falco is fairly simple, discussion about footstooling Yoshi's recovery is needed as preventing Yoshi from surviving to high %s is very valuable in this matchup. The idea is to take advantage of Yoshi's lack of up-b intended for recovery by footstooling him during his double jump (which normally allows yoshi to armor his way through edgeguard attempts), but this is not quite as simple as it seems.
Hamyojo commented regarding footstooling in the Yoshi boards stating " His double jump has super armor that comes out frame 1 and lasts the entire animation, and if someone tries to footstool you you can just nair them." So while a well placed footstool can close out a stock, it can still be difficult to land on a recovering Yoshi. Below are a few gifs of footstooling on Yoshi in action.
http://www.gfycat.com/GrandiosePertinentGardensnake
https://gfycat.com/PowerlessScholarlyAmericankestrel
http://youtu.be/ca60ys_xYvo?t=8m6s
If anybody has more examples, feel free to post. Additional information on setting up footstools would be appreciated (though we did mention that following up fair with a footstool is certainly an option if the opponent DIs wrong).
Shoutouts to @
Sethlon
and @
hamyojo
for setting the Roy/Yoshi MU standard in PM.
The combo potential for footstooling a grounded opponent was discussed as well. Landing the strong (non meteor) hit of dair off of a footstool seems to be a fairly effective option (leading into utilt/uair juggles, bair, or even fsmash depending on the opponents DI. It would seem the primary problem with this is in landing the initial footstool (not something easy to do in neutral).
[/collapse]
[collapse="DACUS"]
DACUS seemed the most obvious of the techniques from brawl to apply to PM, despite this, there was not too much input on where it can be applied. Further input would be greatly appreciated.
The applications for DACUS that we discussed ended up boiling down to three topics. Throw followups, platform tech chasing, and unexpected bursts of speed in the neutral.
Following up a forward throw with DACUS would seem to be a possibility in certain matchups (DI dependent). The idea was to follow up fthrow on floaty characters (ex. Jigglypuff) with DACUS assuming that they DI away from Roy. At higher percents, this could lead to kills off the top. Additional testing is required to know with what DI and against what opponents a DACUS followup is viable (please comment with additional information if you have any). The big concern here deals with the inconsistency of Roy's up-smash due to its multi hit nature: often times, sufficient SDI (or sometimes none at all) will allow an opponent to pop out of the up-smash rather than take the strong hit.
Platform tech chasing was also brought up over the course of the discussion. For stages in which platforms are low enough, it is possible to hit the opponent after a tech roll with the up-smash. This can lead to possible kills or just followups for additional % in situations where other options would not suffice (it was brought up that there is almost always a better option for continuing combos).
The third option (random bursts of speed) is pretty much self-explanatory. Mindless use of DACUS in the neutral is not recommended (pretty much never recommended in the neutral), but catching falling opponents unexpectedly from below (particularly the floaties) is a possibility. This can be done against a falling Peach that has committed to using a parasol and is attempting to land on stage. The basic idea is to catch falling opponents unaware.
Further information on application of DACUS would be appreciated.
[/collapse]
[collapse="BReverse/Wavebouncing/RaR"]
These are the techniques in which an error in terminology is most likely to occur, feel free to correct me for the sake of accuracy.
So B-Reversing was discussed purely from the point of view of a movement mixup. This could make landing a flareblade or DED string possible in situations where the opponent would not expect an attack (particularly those who are not familiar with such techniques). This technique really begins to shine when applied to a reverse aerial (referred to as wavebouncing). Applications of wavebouncing were discussed for DED and flareblade.
The most interesting contributions regarding wavebouncing were brought up for DED1 in the comments of the original post for the 2/7 discussion. The possibility of wavebouncing DED to poke at opponents while staying away from shield grab range or other retaliatory measures is fairly self-explanatory, but more can be done when one acknowledges the possibility of wavelanding after the first swing of DED. With this in mind, Roy can waveland inwards to followup with a grab, continue the DED string, or use a double jump (and subsequently follow up with an aerial or whatever else you can imagine). To quote Sethlon from the original post "^^^ Something I've been working on specifically vs the fat characters. Hoping it'll be useful in the long run against D3." This seems to be fairly new, so time will tell what applications for this there are.
Possible applications for edgeguarding with wavebounced aerials were brought up as a possible addition to Roy's (lackluster) offstage edgeguarding game. The basic idea would be to hit opponents attempting to recover high with either a wavebounced DED1 or flareblade. The momentum change would allow Roy to return to the stage and follow up if the opponent survives. Whether this is practical or not is up for debate (it would seem fairly niche at best), but anything that could potentially help Roy with offstage edgeguards should be considered.
RaR allows for some interesting movement options that were not present in melee (should not be overlooked). RaR bair can be used as a kill move (with less commitment, but less range than Fsmash). RaR also allows for turnarounds via wavedashing after one has entered the run state (after dash start up). This would allow for Roy to take the ledge with a single wavedash by running at the ledge, starting the turn around animation, and wavedashing towards the ledge (as opposed to having to input the wavedash during the startup of a dash like in melee).
[/collapse]
[collapse="GT/AGT"]
These two techniques benefit the item characters far more than they benefit Roy, but they are worth knowing for specific matchups. Roy may end up taking advantage of these two techniques in the Peach/Diddy MUs and perhaps also the Toon Link MU.
The main use we discussed would be helping Roy's recovery with Bananas/Turnips/Bombs with the extra momentum from the AGT.
Roy's GT is also very interesting, but we did not go into any depth over its applications. Of note is the massive distance Roy covers when doing a GT during a backwards roll. Beyond creating space for Roy, we aren't sure how to properly apply this tech (again, any additional info is appreciated).
[/collapse]
This should cover the extent of what we discussed, anyone with anything to add or who wasn't present at the discussion is encouraged to post in the comments. Additional info, examples, or corrections are all welcome.
I would like to create a poll for the 2/21 discussion, however, not that many topics have been proposed. If you have ideas, please comment. I would like to stay away from MU discussion given that there is a MU thread, but we could go in depth and post the summary in the thread if that is what people want. I don't think I can include a poll by editing, but I'd rather not spam up the boards with multiple posts regarding a single discussion. I'll most likely link to an external website with a poll once people recommend some good topics.
EDIT: Sooooo on account of having been busy and being occupied with college stuff on saturday, I'll not be able to make this. Apologies for not getting a poll up in time for voting, I've decided to push this back a week to the 28th. Sorry everybody!
In our discussion, we covered Footstooling, DACUS, AGT, GT, RAR, and Breversing+Wavebouncing.
[collapse="Footstooling"]
We determined that footstooling does have a few niche applications that should not be overlooked. In order to utilize this technique more effectively, it is sometimes recommended that the player bind the command to the jump button that they do not use (x or y) rather than to the default (dpad).
Applications for Roy that we discussed were for gimping Yoshi's recovery through DJ armor, gimping Falco in his firebird startup, and following up in comboing.
While the application against Falco is fairly simple, discussion about footstooling Yoshi's recovery is needed as preventing Yoshi from surviving to high %s is very valuable in this matchup. The idea is to take advantage of Yoshi's lack of up-b intended for recovery by footstooling him during his double jump (which normally allows yoshi to armor his way through edgeguard attempts), but this is not quite as simple as it seems.
Hamyojo commented regarding footstooling in the Yoshi boards stating " His double jump has super armor that comes out frame 1 and lasts the entire animation, and if someone tries to footstool you you can just nair them." So while a well placed footstool can close out a stock, it can still be difficult to land on a recovering Yoshi. Below are a few gifs of footstooling on Yoshi in action.
http://www.gfycat.com/GrandiosePertinentGardensnake
https://gfycat.com/PowerlessScholarlyAmericankestrel
http://youtu.be/ca60ys_xYvo?t=8m6s
If anybody has more examples, feel free to post. Additional information on setting up footstools would be appreciated (though we did mention that following up fair with a footstool is certainly an option if the opponent DIs wrong).
Shoutouts to @
Sethlon
and @
hamyojo
for setting the Roy/Yoshi MU standard in PM.The combo potential for footstooling a grounded opponent was discussed as well. Landing the strong (non meteor) hit of dair off of a footstool seems to be a fairly effective option (leading into utilt/uair juggles, bair, or even fsmash depending on the opponents DI. It would seem the primary problem with this is in landing the initial footstool (not something easy to do in neutral).
[/collapse]
[collapse="DACUS"]
DACUS seemed the most obvious of the techniques from brawl to apply to PM, despite this, there was not too much input on where it can be applied. Further input would be greatly appreciated.
The applications for DACUS that we discussed ended up boiling down to three topics. Throw followups, platform tech chasing, and unexpected bursts of speed in the neutral.
Following up a forward throw with DACUS would seem to be a possibility in certain matchups (DI dependent). The idea was to follow up fthrow on floaty characters (ex. Jigglypuff) with DACUS assuming that they DI away from Roy. At higher percents, this could lead to kills off the top. Additional testing is required to know with what DI and against what opponents a DACUS followup is viable (please comment with additional information if you have any). The big concern here deals with the inconsistency of Roy's up-smash due to its multi hit nature: often times, sufficient SDI (or sometimes none at all) will allow an opponent to pop out of the up-smash rather than take the strong hit.
Platform tech chasing was also brought up over the course of the discussion. For stages in which platforms are low enough, it is possible to hit the opponent after a tech roll with the up-smash. This can lead to possible kills or just followups for additional % in situations where other options would not suffice (it was brought up that there is almost always a better option for continuing combos).
The third option (random bursts of speed) is pretty much self-explanatory. Mindless use of DACUS in the neutral is not recommended (pretty much never recommended in the neutral), but catching falling opponents unexpectedly from below (particularly the floaties) is a possibility. This can be done against a falling Peach that has committed to using a parasol and is attempting to land on stage. The basic idea is to catch falling opponents unaware.
Further information on application of DACUS would be appreciated.
[/collapse]
[collapse="BReverse/Wavebouncing/RaR"]
These are the techniques in which an error in terminology is most likely to occur, feel free to correct me for the sake of accuracy.
So B-Reversing was discussed purely from the point of view of a movement mixup. This could make landing a flareblade or DED string possible in situations where the opponent would not expect an attack (particularly those who are not familiar with such techniques). This technique really begins to shine when applied to a reverse aerial (referred to as wavebouncing). Applications of wavebouncing were discussed for DED and flareblade.
The most interesting contributions regarding wavebouncing were brought up for DED1 in the comments of the original post for the 2/7 discussion. The possibility of wavebouncing DED to poke at opponents while staying away from shield grab range or other retaliatory measures is fairly self-explanatory, but more can be done when one acknowledges the possibility of wavelanding after the first swing of DED. With this in mind, Roy can waveland inwards to followup with a grab, continue the DED string, or use a double jump (and subsequently follow up with an aerial or whatever else you can imagine). To quote Sethlon from the original post "^^^ Something I've been working on specifically vs the fat characters. Hoping it'll be useful in the long run against D3." This seems to be fairly new, so time will tell what applications for this there are.
Possible applications for edgeguarding with wavebounced aerials were brought up as a possible addition to Roy's (lackluster) offstage edgeguarding game. The basic idea would be to hit opponents attempting to recover high with either a wavebounced DED1 or flareblade. The momentum change would allow Roy to return to the stage and follow up if the opponent survives. Whether this is practical or not is up for debate (it would seem fairly niche at best), but anything that could potentially help Roy with offstage edgeguards should be considered.
RaR allows for some interesting movement options that were not present in melee (should not be overlooked). RaR bair can be used as a kill move (with less commitment, but less range than Fsmash). RaR also allows for turnarounds via wavedashing after one has entered the run state (after dash start up). This would allow for Roy to take the ledge with a single wavedash by running at the ledge, starting the turn around animation, and wavedashing towards the ledge (as opposed to having to input the wavedash during the startup of a dash like in melee).
[/collapse]
[collapse="GT/AGT"]
These two techniques benefit the item characters far more than they benefit Roy, but they are worth knowing for specific matchups. Roy may end up taking advantage of these two techniques in the Peach/Diddy MUs and perhaps also the Toon Link MU.
The main use we discussed would be helping Roy's recovery with Bananas/Turnips/Bombs with the extra momentum from the AGT.
Roy's GT is also very interesting, but we did not go into any depth over its applications. Of note is the massive distance Roy covers when doing a GT during a backwards roll. Beyond creating space for Roy, we aren't sure how to properly apply this tech (again, any additional info is appreciated).
[/collapse]
This should cover the extent of what we discussed, anyone with anything to add or who wasn't present at the discussion is encouraged to post in the comments. Additional info, examples, or corrections are all welcome.
I would like to create a poll for the 2/21 discussion, however, not that many topics have been proposed. If you have ideas, please comment. I would like to stay away from MU discussion given that there is a MU thread, but we could go in depth and post the summary in the thread if that is what people want. I don't think I can include a poll by editing, but I'd rather not spam up the boards with multiple posts regarding a single discussion. I'll most likely link to an external website with a poll once people recommend some good topics.
EDIT: Sooooo on account of having been busy and being occupied with college stuff on saturday, I'll not be able to make this. Apologies for not getting a poll up in time for voting, I've decided to push this back a week to the 28th. Sorry everybody!
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