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Bowser's Recovery

FakeKraid

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So, since the Project M blog has stated that 3.5 will focus on recovery, I thought now might be a good time to talk about Bowser's recovery: its strengths, its weaknesses, and my (and your) experience with using it.

Primary recovery tool: Whirling Fortress

Bowser's Whirling Fortress, used as a recovery, sends him in a more or less parabolic arc upward and to the side with a fair amount of directional freedom, similar to Captain Falcon's Falcon Dive but with significantly shorter reach. During the move he enjoys a fair degree of protection from the continuous hitboxes it creates around him, but it can be clinked or out-prioritized by a sufficiently disjointed move like Marth's dtilt or dair, making it risky to use without sweet-spotting. Unfortunately, the move is much harder to sweet-spot consistently than many others like it because Bowser is granted fairly little vertical warp, making the sweet-spot window quite small, especially against on-stage guards that enjoy below-edge hitboxes like DeDeDe's dtilt and Zamus's dsmash. In addition its relatively small amount of vertical distance leaves Bowser vulnerable to low% spikes from Marth, Falco, Ness, and other characters with useful meteors.

Bowser's recovery can go quite far between his medium-size second jump and the considerable drift he enjoys after his Fortress, but its slow, predictable arc and his lack of viable alternatives in most circumstances (more on that later) makes it predictable and easy to foil. Perhaps the saving grace that keeps his recovery from being outright bad is the very low lag he enjoys when landing on-stage from a high recovery, unlike characters with similar recovery (CF, Ganondorf, Link, etc.), making it hard to punish a high recovery from an unsuccessful edge-hog and leading to Bowser's famous "double-Fortress" follow-up. Unfortunately there is still a window for this; if Bowser lands too much before the end of his Fortress he will end with full on-stage lag leading to an easy punish unless you can react quickly enough to drift back over the edge for a Fortress Hog cancel.

There are a few tricks to make his recovery less predictable even from below the ledge. His good horizontal control during the move allows for lateral stalling to bait an early edge-guard attempt. Off-stage punish attempts can often be foiled by an early Fortress or, with sufficient room and height, a low-lag air like fair. Closer recoveries allow Bowser to advantage of the considerably more forgiving warp from his neutral stance in the air. And finally, the Bowser Bomb can be ledge-cancelled from any facing for high recovery straight down to take advantage of its heavy armor and powerful knockback and shield damage to punish unwary on-stage edge-guards.

For my part, I think Bowser's recovery should serve as a model of good balance for the PMBR: experienced players who make use of all available options can generally make it back in most matchups and situations, but a bad read or a skillful off-stage gimp will ruin Bowser's day in short order. The only matches where Bowser's recovery feels very inadequate are generally balanced by similar qualities on tho other side (with the exception of Zamus, and Pit, but that's another balance issue altogether), leading to tense recovery situations all around that call for precision execution, good mix-up, and a steady mind.
 
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FakeKraid

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Bowser's recovery is terrible.
Only by Brawl or current PM standards. It's good enough for me to win matches against good players. And good enough that most of my stocks end off the top our side, not the bottom.

EDIT: Full disclosure, I consider Bowser's recovery in PM to be better than in Brawl. I literally stopped playing Brawl basically forever after a randomized failure to grab the ledge on Delfino Plaza caused me to lose a match against Boss's Luigi that I was winning, in front of about ten people. Project M Bowser's recovery is hard to learn and requires skill and foresight, but at least it's reliable and the only thing I have to worry about screwing me over is my opponent.
 
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NickRiddle

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You're bad at recovering in Brawl so you think his PM recovery is good?
It has decent horizontal movement, but almost no vertical movement. It is incredibly easy to hit Bowser out of if your opponent understands where the hitboxes are, and it causes Bowser, the heaviest character in the game, to survive at much lower %s than other characters.

As a Bowser player myself, I have come to understand his strengths and weaknesses. His recovery is DEFINITELY a weakness.
 

FakeKraid

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If you are getting gimped at low % in most matchups then you aren't being tricky enough, or else you're playing a top-level Pit or Zamus all the time. Those are the only two matchups where I've consistently had trouble recovering, and both of those characters have some pretty messed up edge-guarding options in this build.
 

NickRiddle

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Characters that edgeguard Bowser for free:

Pit
ZSS
Marth
Samus
Link
Mario
M2
Lucario
DK
Ganon
Wario
Falcon
Falco
Fox
Wolf
Probably Toon Link

Most people are just scared of getting hit by Bowser so they don't go out to hit him.
It's REALLY easy for ANY character with a decently big spike/meteor smash to hit Bowser out of up-b, almost any projectiles can hit him out of up-b into a space where he gets hit back out.
 

FakeKraid

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I'll believe that when I start getting gimped for free by good players in tournament. In the meantime, I'll fall back on the more likely explanation that my seven years' competitive experience have given me enough skill at reading, mix-up, and spacing to use my options effectively.

Bowser doesn't have bad recovery, he just doesn't have broken, free recovery. Falco has bad recovery. Olimar has bad recovery. Luigi has bad recovery. Roy has bad recovery. Bowser just has limitations that you need experience and skill to work around, and I think that should be the norm for most characters in PM. And if the recent blog post is any indication, the developers agree.
 

NickRiddle

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Are you assuming I don't have an equally long amount of competitive experience under my belt?

Maybe if the players in your area were as good as the players that I have played you would understand.
 

Rags

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INb4 incoming storm

I will say that I feel like bowser has to use his second jump when he goes offstage VERY smart, otherwise he will have to rely on his upB which doesn't provide much by way of movement or options. Especally against people who know all you have left is up B. Maybe I'm not good enough, but I find it hard to do anything against a shorthopped dair against a marth and I'm at the ledge. Sacrifice a stock for a hit(possibly) or take the dair? a lose/lose IMO.
 

SFA Smiley

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Its definitely bad but I like it. I hate stupid pm recoveries so much. I do think Bowsers recovery is very well balanced for his type of character
 
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FakeKraid

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INb4 incoming storm
There's not going to be a storm. I don't know why a back-roomer is trying to start a flame war on my thread but I'm not going to escalate it. My original post stated that Bowser's recovery gives him enough options to come back in a wide variety of situations with enough skill at reading and execution without just giving Bowser free recovery and that since the PMBR has stated that as their goal, more or less, for most recoveries in PM they should keep it in mind. So far I have yet to see someone credibly disagree with me, and I've got no interest in contests on the forum. If Nick is really that salty he can come to MD/VA and crew match us, or MM me.

As for recovering against Marth, the lateral stall and high recoveries are your best friends. Marth is good at edge-guarding anyone without a broken recovery; it's no poor reflection on Bowser that Marth can gimp him. You just have to learn to watch the Marth and try to use you're options accordingly. If you're high up and he goes in deep you should try to fair before he does, since if he manages to out-reach you on that he'll sweet-spot the hit and just knock you higher, at which point you can just up-B early and recover before he gets back to stage. If he stays on-stage lateral stall to bait an early dtilt or fsmash and come back that way. If he fthrows you off-stage and goes for a fair spike you may be screwed no matter what you do; welcome to fighting good Marths. The best thing to do there is not get in that situation at all, but if it's unavoidable then DI out to avoid an immediate follow-up and then make a low recovery as best you can. That's a bad situation for just about any character, so again it's got little to do with Bowser's recovery in particular. If anything that's more the fault of his size. The good news is you can sweet-spot his fsmash fairly easily with practice because it doesn't go below the ledge, so dtilt is what you really need to watch out for. It takes practice and experience to get the reads down but I don't get gimped by Marth players all that often anymore. I should get Tony over to play sometime before I go to Maine...

EDIT: I hinted at this but I should repeat it for emphasis: the biggest part of not getting gimped against characters who are good at gimping (Marth, Falco, ZSS, maybe Fox if you're a sucker for Shine spikes, etc.) is to learn to recognize and avoid the setups they have for gimping. It's good to know how to regain the advantage but it's better never to lose it in the first place. Hold the center of the stage as much as possible, don't fall for baits, and always DI out of combos except in certain VERY specific cases (like DI'ing toward Marth after an on-stage fthrow at ~20% or so to avoid a tipper).
 
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tonythebowserguy

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OMG IT'S NICK RIDDLE, dude you're a god i seen you beat hungrybox's mario with bowser it was sick

nick definitely knows bowser
 

Rags

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Hmmm after watching Nick Riddle play, I can say that his style and Fake Kraid's stly of play are entirely different. Nick likes to go all in and wreckless, which is why I think you guys feel different on certain things, Kraid likes to play tricky, and safe.
 

Frost | Odds

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Characters that edgeguard Bowser for free:

Pit
ZSS
Marth
Samus
Link
Mario
M2
Lucario
DK
Ganon
Wario
Falcon
Falco
Fox
Wolf
Probably Toon Link

Most people are just scared of getting hit by Bowser so they don't go out to hit him.
It's REALLY easy for ANY character with a decently big spike/meteor smash to hit Bowser out of up-b, almost any projectiles can hit him out of up-b into a space where he gets hit back out.
You forgot Ivy, Bowser himself, Ness/Lucas

FakeKraid: Nick is probably the best bowser - and he's entirely right. Gimping bowser is really, really free for anyone who has the faintest clue.
 

FakeKraid

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Best Bowser or not, if he's getting gimped for free against half the cast he needs to step his ****. I don't. Edge-guarding in general isn't that easy in PM. It's not Melee.


EDIT: either that, or he's using the phrase "for free" wrong. All of the characters he listed can gimp Bowser...If they correctly predict your approach and timing. Or if they knock you out far enough that they can just grab the ledge. But neither of those counts as "free" by my definition because they require setups and prediction. If you get yourself trapped in an unwinnable situation that's your fault, not the game's.
 
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Frost | Odds

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You seem to know your stuff in general, but idk where you're getting the idea that bowser can get back against a lot of these characters. Do you have videos of your locals?
 

Mr. Bones

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Best Bowser? Straight up. I will MM Nick in Bowser dittos for 500$. (granted, that says nothing about a Bowser's over all skill because the ditto MU is just side b for days...) But he isn't the best Bowser.

That said, I'm on the fence as far as Nick vs Kraid on recovery. It can be mixed up a little more than the Spacies/Roy/Marth/Falcon but...only by a small margin. I agree that it's a good model for a balanced recovery, at least as far as the PMBR seems to be concerned.

There are enough mix-up options to relieve it of the "worst recovery" title. It's just that almost everyone else has a stupid recovery in comparison. (DIDDY KONG)

The best way to avoid using your sub-par recovery is to not get knocked of stage. Just saying. And as far as Bowser goes, for ****s sake, don't get grabbed.
 
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FakeKraid

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That said, I'm on the fence as far as Nick vs Kraid on recovery. It can be mixed up a little more than the Spacies/Roy/Marth/Falcon but...only by a small margin. I agree that it's a good model for a balanced recovery, at least as far as the PMBR seems to be concerned.

There are enough mix-up options to relieve it of the "worst recovery" title. It's just that almost everyone else has a stupid recovery in comparison.

The best way to avoid using your sub-par recovery is to not get knocked of stage. Just saying. And as far as Bowser goes, for ****s sake, don't get grabbed.
That's basically all I've been saying. Bowser's recovery isn't good, nor have I ever said it is. But it's not so bad that going over the edge is nearly always fatal, unless you've gotten yourself into a situation where your opponent has locked you out of options, in which case that's your fault for getting outsmarted or outplayed. Only a couple of characters have genuinely free gimps against Bowser; Pit, for example, can simply follow you out no matter how you DI, hit you with arrows and fairs, and then fly back once you're dead, while Zamus's dsmash goes so far under the ledge and stays out so long that it's either impossible to sweet-spot or stall out or else requires frame and pixel-perfect precision. That's what a free gimp means in my book: something that doesn't have to be set up, involves little or no risk, and gives you no options to counter.
 

Rags

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Money match inbound?

but seriously I don't have much of an issue with his recovery SOMETIMES... Most times and most currently I find myself going off stage to bait them into following me and attacking, then use up B to counter. Maybe give him a higher second jump or a bit more altitude on the up B? IDK. and make fortress over ledge a bit easier. Too many times I SD'd in attempt to online or worse yet, lag screws it up. arrrgh!!
 

FakeKraid

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Well, there's no way to account for online issues unfortunately. That's what you pay to enjoy access to remote players without travel.

I would rather see the devs fix broken recoveries than make Bowser's broken to match. Quicker, more intense matches should be the goal if we want interest in PM to stay high. Bowser's got enough options to keep things interesting for me and I don't feel burdened by its limitations because his other strengths make up for it in most matchups. Most.
 
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SFA Smiley

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JaimeHR is the best Bowser.

Its pretty much because his neutral is next level godlike so generally he just largely outplays people but Bowser probably benefits the most from it.
 

Frost | Odds

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Jaime's got a pretty good neutral game, but my god he makes a lot of really awful decisions for no reason. IDK if he just has terrible reaction time or what. His movement is also kinda lackluster. Seems like his biggest asset is just his ironclad tournament mindset/total lack of nerves.

I'm planning to go 100% bowser at the next regional on sat (unless I run into a lucario probably), can hopefully represent.

Going over the edge is nearly always fatal, but only in some MUs, and even then only if your opponent knows what he's doing. Against a competent Ivy/Mewtwo/Marth you will never, never, ever recover.
 
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internetmovieguy

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That's basically all I've been saying. Bowser's recovery isn't good, nor have I ever said it is.\.
What if, during Whirling Fortress, Bowser gained more height from holding B at the cost of horizontal distance? This way Bowser would have a low/high mix up on his recovery.
I want your personal opinion FakeKraid.
 

FakeKraid

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What if, during Whirling Fortress, Bowser gained more height from holding B at the cost of horizontal distance? This way Bowser would have a low/high mix up on his recovery.
I want your personal opinion FakeKraid.
I'm not sure I understand. You mean like, if you don't move to the side he goes up faster? That'd make it very hard to sweet-spot, even harder than it is now.

Also, could you guys maybe just create a "Who's the best Bowser" thread to argue that out on? It's not offensive or anything but the thread is supposed to be focused on Bowser's recovery options, such as they are, and not...spike measuring contests.
 
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internetmovieguy

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I'm not sure I understand. You mean like, if you don't move to the side he goes up faster? That'd make it very hard to sweet-spot, even harder than it is now.

Also, could you guys maybe just create a "Who's the best Bowser" thread to argue that out on? It's not offensive or anything but the thread is supposed to be focused on Bowser's recovery options, such as they are, and not...spike measuring contests.
Thanks for the reply. I'm suggesting giving bowser's Whirling Fortress two similar recovery arcs. They would be just different enough to make his recovery less predictable.
 

SFA Smiley

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It's a cool idea but I don't think the recovery should be touched. It's good the way it is, and by that i mean it's bad. Bowser doesn't need recovery mixups because that's not where his strength's lie.

He's a tank, and a tank doesn't need to fly. He takes hits and has a good shield and massive hitboxes. I hate the "everyone should recover" PM mindset. Bad recoveries are okay, because Bowser shouldn't be leaving the stage.
 

Jacob29

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The problem is that he is a tank who many characters can kill early thus rendering his tanking abilities useless.

Although saying that I don't think I want his recovery changed.
 
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FakeKraid

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Bowser's recovery isn't good enough to stay alive much past 130% often, but if you're getting gimped at low % in most matches I still say you're doing it wrong. It happens sometimes, yeah, against good players or if you mess up badly, but it shouldn't be a regular occurrence.
 
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Frost | Odds

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My practice partner isn't that great of a player, but he's damn good at the bowser mu - whether he dunks, bairs, or uairs me into oblivion is pretty much immaterial. I can still mindgame my way past fairly often, but that's more a reflection on his mistakes than Bowser's ability.

Pretty much any character with a meteor or a spike can just sit near the edge to stop bowser from recovering high - then go for the free dunk as soon as you're forced to drop. It's not hard. Nor is just stuffing bowser's recovery with basically any hitbox.
 
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SFA Smiley

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Well recoveries in general will be getting nerfed so ours will be in line with other characters. Finally, I can actually punish people for being offstage.

Its like I'm playing smash bros or something
 

internetmovieguy

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My practice partner isn't that great of a player, but he's damn good at the bowser mu - whether he dunks, bairs, or uairs me into oblivion is pretty much immaterial. I can still mindgame my way past fairly often, but that's more a reflection on his mistakes than Bowser's ability.

Pretty much any character with a meteor or a spike can just sit near the edge to stop bowser from recovering high - then go for the free dunk as soon as you're forced to drop. It's not hard. Nor is just stuffing bowser's recovery with basically any hitbox.
It's the same for fox's recovery except that fox has 2 options and can mix up the direction to approach on the spot. this is why i suggested giving bowser 2 arcs so that he can sweet spot from 2 different points in his recovery thus giving him a mix up that is not heavily telegraphed.
 

Jacob29

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But we do have 2 options.

Also another comparison with Fox is that Fox's onstage is real fkin baller. Where as Bowser's is O.K. at best.
 

ImpossiblyRood

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Excluding people who go for excessive spikes or an aggressive offstage game, I've had few problems recovering with bowser. Being a little janky with his horizontal movement goes a long way. Or, at least as far as bowser can get from "like a fish in a barrel". From my own experience - and watching players like Kirk and Cmart, in particular - one of bowser's best modes of recovery are either high recovery or going onstage and getting in some damage.

This doesn't seem to be a completely solid plan for the most part, as people that see it coming should be able to punish accordingly, but barging into your opponents will not only net you some damage, but often can let you do a defensive grounded upb that can get you out of some pressure.


It may not be a good recovery, and is excessively spike-prone. But it's our silly little whirligig and we have to make the most of it.
 

Jacob29

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Excluding height.

Up-B for a more horizontal recovery.

Jump+Down-B for a more vertical recovery which can have armour.
 
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