Bowser's Fire 'B'

[Shade_]

I was wondering what was the mindset behind making his fire the way it was. It dies extremely fast, and you can't land cancel it or anything special. Aside from starting a little earlier, it seems to be a worse move than it was in normal Brawl.

Just my opinion though. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind it.
Thanks for your time.

-Shade-

 

[Kally Wally]

You can sort of land cancel it - if you land during the startup, it starts immediately.

I don't really disagree with you, though.

 

[Hoboman5000]

I agree, I think it should last longer, but I think it may have been changed so they wouldn't be ensnared in it as long.

 

[Iron Jawbone]

As a Bowser main for all games, this fire is easily the worst of the bunch because of the incredible speed in which it dies. The recharge time for it to come back is a bit brutal too, but that would be fine if Bowser's fire had any staying power, but it just doesn't.

 

[0RLY]

If I ever go in for the klaw and my opponent makes a snap decision to move out of range instead of block, I'll use a flame cancel instead. Since they're not blocking, they'll usually end up trying to DI away to escape from the flame chomp that follows. This is a decent way to gain stage control or to punish a move you can't quite reach, like Lucas' Offense Up. I do think the dying speed is a bit absurd as you'll lose to a shield 100% of the time... but then so does most of Bowser's moves.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Flame cancel is pretty alright. Tacks on a bit of damage at a bit of range. Think of it more like a super unsafe fox laser than anything.

 

[Matthew]

The firebreath is good on small stages such as Yoshi's Story to gain stage control and to push the enemy out and in some cases off the ledge. One mixup I like to do is to turn my back to the enemy, short hop, and flame cancel while doing a B-reverse so that Bowser faces the enemy with the firebreath.

 

[FreeGamer]

Outside of a few situational things, Fire Breath is a complete joke in this game.

 

[Iron Jawbone]

I'm actually starting to find small, legitimate uses for it. Eh, guess it comes with just messing around against people who have some degree of skill.

 

[GeZ]

I like dropping through platforms with it. Covers a lot of area and tacks on an all right amount of damage.

 

[Marthmario]

I mainly use it on opponents who have been knocked off the stage, yet aren't far enough to not return.


Example: Green Hill Zone. Say Bowser throws Fox off, yet not far enough to KO, so I lay down some fire at the edge to rack up some more damage. Generally helps with getting opponents to easy KO %.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

My ideas:

1. Add the option to Land Cancel
2. Keep current decay rate
3. Make it kill any projectiles that hit it
4. Any projectiles that are killed by the fire speeds up the decay rate

Instant Buff! If killing projectiles is too OP, maybe shorten the duration or elongate the charge/recovery time

 

[Phan7om]

My ideas:

1. Add the option to Land Cancel
2. Keep current decay rate
3. Make it kill any projectiles that hit it
4. Any projectiles that are killed by the fire speeds up the decay rate

Instant Buff! If killing projectiles is too OP, maybe shorten the duration or elongate the charge/recovery time

Damn, land cancellable and flame cancellable? Talk about safe in the air.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Damn, land cancellable and flame cancellable? Talk about safe in the air.

Sorry, I have just started playing Bowser so I don't know how that affects things, I just read above that people liked the land cancel idea. As for my choice of buff, I feel Bowser really doesn't have many options against projectile users other than light-shielding and such so I had two ideas: They could him a Samus-type charge fireball (Which is probably a horrible idea), or the above. 10 points if you guess which won my vote.

 

[Phan7om]

Sorry, I have just started playing Bowser so I don't know how that affects things, I just read above that people liked the land cancel idea. As for my choice of buff, I feel Bowser really doesn't have many options against projectile users other than light-shielding and such so I had two ideas: They could him a Samus-type charge fireball (Which is probably a horrible idea), or the above. 10 points if you guess which won my vote.

Well I know that there isnt light-shielding yet and Bowser's crawl beats out weak projectiles. I do agree Bowser is pretty weak and deserves a few buffs tho. As for neutral-b, I always said all it needs is more damage output. If you crouch cancel it/dont sdi, it should be almost as strong as Peach's dsmash imo, encouraging people to learn sdi.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Well I know that there isnt light-shielding yet and Bowser's crawl beats out weak projectiles. I do agree Bowser is pretty weak and deserves a few buffs tho. As for neutral-b, I always said all it needs is more damage output. If you crouch cancel it/dont sdi, it should be almost as strong as Peach's dsmash imo, encouraging people to learn sdi.

Sorry, I meant perfect shielding, not light-shielding. I'm kind of a Smash Noob as there's really not that many PM Tourneys near Plaistow NH USA. At any rate, I didn't really know about the crawl thing, so thanks!

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

I think a nice change for flame would have to do two things:

1. Pay respect to similar mechanics. Charizard's flame and Bowser's flame are respectively different. Unique mechanics, even though they're both flame channels just adds to the unique playstyle of both respectively.

2. It does what it's intended to do, which (imo) is to create breathing room, used as shield or mobility pressure, area deterrent options.

So either:

A: Bowser flame is longer in length
B: More hit stun or more damage or more knockback frequency

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

Perhaps, as Crulex said, it is intended to create breathing room it should be a "breath" of fire. Instead of a constant gout of flame, it is a sort of gust. A single wave (presumably that can pseudo-flame cancelled) of fire with the same range as max fire, with limited knockback growth outside of pushing people out to the end of the projectile. In other words, you get a little fire wave that pushes people back rather than knock people back.

Someone is camping out below you, platform drop into fire gust and get them at arm's length. All that's needed to keep it from being a stupid-good edgeguard tool (which Bowser doesn't really need, imo) is to have an unhealthy startup time. To keep spam away, perhaps make it have a smaller size and distance, akin to the stock fire breath.



Sorry for my idea dump, but once I started I couldn't stop.

 

[Super_Primid]

Can u still one frame up b with Bowser

 

[Super_Primid]

Sorry for double post

 

[Super_Primid]

I think fire breath should have a buff in the new PM update

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Sorry for double post

...and then you go and triple post

 

[Super_Primid]

...and then you go and triple post

.........sorrry

 

[Jimbo_G]

I think you guys are vastly underestimating the utility of the flame breath and all of the situations in which it gets you out of trouble. While I do wish the decay was just a little slower, that's hardly worth the consideration when you compare it to all the other things it accomplishes with clever usage.

1.) Falling/Land Canceling Flame Breath is Bowser's safest falling move, hands down. Even when fully decayed, it's impossible to be shield-punished and grabbed with the flame hitboxes out without a tether grab, giving Bowser a unique protection from aerial-attack shield punishing. It's not the most damaging option and it won't score you kills, but it can save you from game-changing kill throws and combo punishes.

2.) It can be B-Reversed. Along with the obvious advantages of B-Reversing, in my experience the vast majority of players simply don't expect you to Land-Cancel Flame Breath backwards on their first exposure, and will fall for it numerous times before adapting. Couple that with bad reactionary DI, and you can slap on about 15-25 free fire damage with little to no risk. In combination with point #1, this makes Bowser virtually immune to land-punishing grabs if you can pull it off consistently and makes him very dangerous to approach regardless of his aerial facing.

3.) It mixes beautifully with Koopa Claw. When combined with just the threat of a Land-Canceled Flame Breath alone, anytime you are about to land in front of your opponent they are forced into making the 50/50 guess that you're gonna Flame or Claw, BOTH of which are at a disadvantage when blocked, and at higher percentages down-right lethal if they guess wrong and get Claw'd. This makes rolling away (and thus out of your face) the only real solid option against this mix-up.

4.) Against characters with predictable or limited vertical recoveries, flaming them while they recover and forcing them into their Up-B makes them easy sauce for F-Smashes. Snake and Spacies being especially vulnerable, just flame them until they fall below the ledge, and wait for them to float up right in front of you while you have your F-Smash charging on stand-by. Even if they have a hitbox on their Up-B (Snake) the armor on the F-Smash should handle it with correct timing.

The only real con to the Flame Breath that I can think of is if you misjudge the distance and flame right in front of your opponent they CAN C-Stick Buffer roll past you, leaving you open. However, as long as you space it at least oneF-Tilt's distance away (and aren't fighting Mewtwo) the only option they have is to eat shield damage and roll away.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I hear you. I've started using fire breath WAAAAAAAAY more the last few days. It's hella handy for clearing out neutral space, especially if your opponent is getting overly ambitious with dash-up/shffl'd approaches. The damage it tacks on isn't superb, but it's enough to deter and get people to think twice about getting easy punishes on platform drops or when you come down from a great height.

The move is pretty tasty, if you use it right. If you use it more than, like, twice in a row, you'll get punished hard. It's kinda like a deep-fried twinky. It's tasty while you have it, but if you have more than one, you'll be crapping your brains out. And instead of poop it'll be stocks that are evacuating your body.