Bowsercide hate?

[33percentgod]

Is it just me or do people rage way harder about Bowsercide compared to the other suicide moves? I'm just wondering if it's only what I see or if this is true in general. There's DDD and Kirby inhaling and walking off and then of course Gannon's flame choke. Why do those seem to be "okay", but if you kill with Flying Slam off the ledge people seem to lose their minds?

Not to mention you need to be a full stock ahead for it to even work.

Is this just me being weird or do experience the same thing? Or are you one of those people who are fine with Flame Choke to the death, but flip out if you're caught with Flying Slam over the ledge?

 

[GreenMonkey]

Is it just me or do people rage way harder about Bowsercide compared to the other suicide moves? I'm just wondering if it's only what I see or if this is true in general. There's DDD and Kirby inhaling and walking off and then of course Gannon's flame choke. Why do those seem to be "okay", but if you kill with Flying Slam off the ledge people seem to lose their minds?

Not to mention you need to be a full stock ahead for it to even work.

Is this just me being weird or do experience the same thing? Or are you one of those people who are fine with Flame Choke to the death, but flip out if you're caught with Flying Slam over the ledge?

In all honesty, I've no problem with Bowsercides. The thing that people may be getting frustrated with is Bowsers spamming Side-B. Bowsercides are special in the way that if Bowser gets you off of the stage, both of you are guaranteed death, unlike DDD and Kirby. And unlike Ganon, Flying Slam can move a loooong distance horizontally, so it's easier to kill with it.

Tbh, I don't really like any suicide moves in general, since they say nothing about a player's skill or techniques.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ever since Flying Slam got nerfed in the suicide department, you can't really use it make suicide KOs anymore, unless your opponent's recovery is awful. And of course, Bowser will NOT be credited for the KO, unless he's the last fighter to deal damage to his target.

 

[33percentgod]

And of course, Bowser will NOT be credited for the KO, unless he's the last fighter to deal damage to his target.

I'm assuming this also applies for DDD,Kirby, and Gannon as well? Because a suicide move is a suicide move. Period.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm assuming this also applies for DDD,Kirby, and Gannon as well? Because a suicide move is a suicide move. Period.

The problem that Bowser has is that if he tries to do a suicide KO with Flying Slam, he will end up being the loser of the match if he doesn't have the life advantage. And since opponents are released from the move when Bowser KOs himself, they can potentially recover from the ordeal, meaning that Bowser would only be hurting himself with the suicide KO tactics.

 

[33percentgod]

The problem that Bowser has is that if he tries to do a suicide KO with Flying Slam, he will end up being the loser of the match if he doesn't have the life advantage. And since opponents are released from the move when Bowser KOs himself, they can potentially recover from the ordeal, meaning that Bowser would only be hurting himself with the suicide KO tactics.

I wish they would change that already tbh. The opponent is UNDER Bowser when you go off the stage. They should die first, then you second.

It makes no sense. :/

 

[Murlough]

I don't mind any of them really. If a player actually gets a -cide in a match then it is the fault of the opposing player.

If I dislike any it is the Ganon-cide. Low level players just spamm it when they are behind or at a ledge instead of doing something less predictable...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I wish they would change that already tbh. The opponent is UNDER Bowser when you go off the stage. They should die first, then you second.

It makes no sense. :/

That was the case in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, along with pre-1.0.4 Smash 3DS. The reasoning for these changes was so that Bowser players could not take the cheap way of getting a win. At least Ganondorf can still win with his suicide KOs, but they're more difficult to pull off.

 

[33percentgod]

That was the case in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, along with pre-1.0.4 Smash 3DS. The reasoning for these changes was so that Bowser players could not take the cheap way of getting a win. At least Ganondorf can still win with his suicide KOs, but they're more difficult to pull off.

But who is to say it's "cheap?" There's no rules to the game, I mean a legal move is legal. To me cheap is spamming projectiles, so can I make Link's damage just not count?

See what I mean?

Like there's so much involved with Bowsercide... patch after patch and tourney rules and this and that, yet Flame Choke off the stage is "ahh, ya got me" and Gannon wins. Why? The opponent left themselves open. They got outplayed. Simple as that.

 

[Murlough]

But who is to say it's "cheap?"

Apparently, the makers of the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Truthfully, I do not like the idea of performing suicide KOs.

 

[pitfall356]

Suicide KOs for Bowser actually take a little more skill and precision than Ganon's does, as Bowser has less control over the move if he has more % than his opponent, which means that he will lose the ability to take his victim off the stage unless he can keep a solid % lead.

Bowser should die first every time this move is performed, however. It is too cheap to be able to spam suicide KO's to win. However, I believe that when an opponent is released after Bowser dies, they should be released into a helpless state so that there is no chance for recovery. Currently, about half the cast can recover from Bowsercide, which sucks. It's also inconsistent, as sometimes Bowser dies first and sometimes both Bowser and the victim dies at the same time.

Sakurai pls

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

pitfall356 Bowser has been given much more control over the move, so the percent lead your opponent requires is significant. Also, as of the recent patch, the move activates faster, giving your opponent less time to react.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Do you play Ganon as much as Bowser to know if people hate that as much? I've spoken with Ganondorf mains and they receive quite a bit of hate. It's not like the move's singular use is to win a game after gaining a stock lead. You can use it to reset stocks. If you manage a grab at 130% and the opponent is only at 40%, taking them over the edge removes their hard earned advantage immediately, and people don't generally like that. There's no DI-ing a Bowsercide, no early escape through mashing. You can control it better than Bowser only with a 30-50% damage advantage, and even then, you have precious time to react to the move and choose a direction. There's no honorable way for Bowser to use a move like this. But thankfully, these attacks are designed in a way that you don't have to suicide with them. Bowser's is a frame 8 command grab that nets 18% damage and kills vertically off platforms. Ganon's Flame Choke is likely his single best move for the tech chasing mixup and mobile nature of the grab. Kirby's and Dededes can be used not just to suicide with, but to spit people under a stage where it may be super inconvenient to recover as them. Kirby can also copy abilities, getting him extremely good moves that he can use better than the opponent like Monado Arts, Fox and ZSS' Blasters, but with the trade off that you can no longer inhale the opponent.

 

[S_B]

Also, even if Bowser DOES have the life advantage, SOME (only SOME) stages will let the opponent pop out and recover while others will not.

No, I haven't tested it on every stage because **** that noise...

 

[bushaheen]

throughout my experience as a bowser main i learned that when a sudden death happens it that your opponent was controlling the move but when you lose it was you controlling it so if a sudden death ever happens because of side b tell them they were on control and di-ing away maybe to survive more but instead killed both of you and him (im pretty sure when a sudden death happens because of that you the bowser player are considered the winner)

 

[MagiusNecros]

Do you play Ganon as much as Bowser to know if people hate that as much? I've spoken with Ganondorf mains and they receive quite a bit of hate.

I imagine more hate comes from the fact you have to be very careful in how you edgeguard Ganon or just let him come back.

 

[Xandercosm]

I imagine more hate comes from the fact you have to be very careful in how you edgeguard Ganon or just let him come back.

Honestly, I think it's a godsend for him. It's the only thing that makes his recovery even slightly decent. At least it makes opponents think twice before trying to edge-guard him.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Honestly, I think it's a godsend for him. It's the only thing that makes his recovery even slightly decent. At least it makes opponents think twice before trying to edge-guard him.

Certainly makes my life a bit easier as Ganon my other main character.

 

[B!squick]

More Bowsercide discussion? What is this, day one of Smash 4's release?

Look, here's some things to think about: Brawl Bowser's version of Klaw was in every way better than Smash 4 Bowser's Klaw. No one was losing their **** back then over it.

Here's some more things to think about: Bowser has no approach, Klaw has 1 frame where it's active, the grab box is minuscule, there's no grab armor anymore, and Bowser needs to not be losing that bad to even be in control of the move. There's only two situations where you should ever be losing a stock from this move: you're either really bad or your opponent is really good. In either case, you most likely would have lost regardless of the move the Bowser player used. Not rewarding the Bowser player with the win in the event of both players having only 1 stock is one of the most asinine things I have ever seen.

Side note, it is almost as asinine as successfully teching the ground and getting punished for it. In both of these cases you're actively punishing the player for good gameplay. This makes no sense in any way, shape, or form.

 

[bushaheen]

More Bowsercide discussion? What is this, day one of Smash 4's release?

Look, here's some things to think about: Brawl Bowser's version of Klaw was in every way better than Smash 4 Bowser's Klaw. No one was losing their **** back then over it.

Here's some more things to think about: Bowser has no approach, Klaw has 1 frame where it's active, the grab box is minuscule, there's no grab armor anymore, and Bowser needs to not be losing that bad to even be in control of the move. There's only two situations where you should ever be losing a stock from this move: you're either really bad or your opponent is really good. In either case, you most likely would have lost regardless of the move the Bowser player used. Not rewarding the Bowser player with the win in the event of both players having only 1 stock is one of the most asinine things I have ever seen.

Side note, it is almost as asinine as successfully teching the ground and getting punished for it. In both of these cases you're actively punishing the player for good gameplay. This makes no sense in any way, shape, or form.

why are you makeing the move seem bad? it comes out on frame 8 (and 18 in the air) has no lag when used from the air near the ground so if your opponent rolled and tried to punish you he cant and with rage can kill between 70-80% and you can bowsercide if you have the stock lead against characters with bad recoveries (yes i know it can miss when someone is really close to you but it has good range and can grab people in front above you if you use the aerial version of it against someome who is shielding in a platform since the sheild makes them easier to grab with side-b) and bowser does have approach options he just isent a rushdown character he is defensive he dosent need to approach but yet he has some if he needed to approach

 

[Xandercosm]

More Bowsercide discussion? What is this, day one of Smash 4's release?

Look, here's some things to think about: Brawl Bowser's version of Klaw was in every way better than Smash 4 Bowser's Klaw. No one was losing their **** back then over it.

Here's some more things to think about: Bowser has no approach, Klaw has 1 frame where it's active, the grab box is minuscule, there's no grab armor anymore, and Bowser needs to not be losing that bad to even be in control of the move. There's only two situations where you should ever be losing a stock from this move: you're either really bad or your opponent is really good. In either case, you most likely would have lost regardless of the move the Bowser player used. Not rewarding the Bowser player with the win in the event of both players having only 1 stock is one of the most asinine things I have ever seen.

Side note, it is almost as asinine as successfully teching the ground and getting punished for it. In both of these cases you're actively punishing the player for good gameplay. This makes no sense in any way, shape, or form.

Instead of making it kill the opponent first, I wish it was just better. The hitbox should be much larger, it should have less lag, and have better use in the air.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I used to be salty about klaw nerfs, but then I remembered that it deals literally 18-19% damage, comes out on frame 8, can kill even earlier on platforms (lol, battlefield), and is an EXCELLENT punish tool. Furthermore control over the suplex has been restored to Bowser over patches so there's no reason NOT to use it fearing that your opponent will guide you offstage.
Instead of panicking and using Up B to punish, try Klaw. I guarantee you will feel happier about it after landing 3 or 4 suplexes then killing with his Uthrow combos. 8D
Edit: IDGAF about rage and salt. There's a lot of things to hate in this game with higher tier characters, but we're not going to see them fixed, so if your opponent can't get used to it it's their loss.

 

[MagiusNecros]

18% damage is nothing IMO. 25% and I'll talk to you.

 

[MrEh]

Klaw is one of those moves where even though it's rewarding to land, it's not worth the amount of effort. Klaw is so tiny it's sickening.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Klaw is one of those moves where even though it's rewarding to land, it's not worth the amount of effort. Klaw is so tiny it's sickening.

Well yeah. Getting in is hard for Bowser. And the box to hit with Klaw is so tiny one misstep or even bad latency will screw him over big time.

Now if we had pivot grab range on a pivot Klaw I'd just be living the high life.

 

[B!squick]

why are you makeing the move seem bad? it comes out on frame 8 (and 18 in the air) has no lag when used from the air near the ground so if your opponent rolled and tried to punish you he cant and with rage can kill between 70-80% and you can bowsercide if you have the stock lead against characters with bad recoveries (yes i know it can miss when someone is really close to you but it has good range and can grab people in front above you if you use the aerial version of it against someome who is shielding in a platform since the sheild makes them easier to grab with side-b) and bowser does have approach options he just isent a rushdown character he is defensive he dosent need to approach but yet he has some if he needed to approach

You know what's better than Klaw aerial? Literally anything else. You know what's better than Klaw on the ground? Pivot grab especially, and also anything else except maybe DSmash and UTilt.

Pivot grab has a longer range, is safer, will deal more damage when you do a UThrow combo, and UThrow > UAir will kill at similar percents. Not only that, but situationally you can mix up the UAir with a BAir and catch your opponent DI'ing the wrong way.

Klaw's only redeeming feature is the quickness of the grabbox which makes it useful as a mix up when you're sure it'll land, but that's maybe once or twice a game, max. You really shouldn't be getting away with it more often than that and as I said, pivot grab will be the superior option regardless.

 

[pitfall356]

Klaw is best for removing some landing lag and buffering ground options. If it had a bigger range and could cut through some attacks I'd see it as a good tool. It's still decent for killing when you've gotten your victim over uthrow uair kill %, it's still an ok landing option when falling on an option, but I don't see it as something incredible aside from these.

I often use it to punish, as it's fast, easy to put out, and I've gotten used to spacing it. Punishable on whiff, yes, but the idea is to not use it unless it's to punish.

 

[Xandercosm]

I think we can all agree that Klaw is his weakest move aside from D-smash. I think it needs a bigger grab box. Plus, it wouldn't effect casual play since casuals just get grabbed by Klaw either way. Please Sakurai...

 

[Putuk]

Why do people dislike suicide moves?
What's more important is that Bowser is so much of a jerk, he'd do this to humiliate people.

 

[Duplighost]

Because suicide moves are a boring way to end a match. Even if you're up a stock, I feel it's still kind of lame to end the match in that way, depending on the circumstances. If your opponent is playing very poorly, then I feel it's acceptable, but otherwise it feels a bit underwhelming in general.

And any suicide move should cause the user to die first. If the victim died first (whether he's underneath Bowser or not), suicide moves would be used constantly by less-than-good players just so they can win a match.

Bowser's move comes out so quickly, the opponent will eventually get grabbed by it close to the ledge.

Got nothing against the move when it's used onstage though.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I feel it's kind of lame when a super heavy gets bodied off of one mistake and can do **** all to escape from the lost stock that is coming to them.

I dunno man I feel Ganon's suicide is balanced but when you have a suicide move that allows the opponent to survive and recover it isn't a suicide move anymore.

It's a "I HOPE THIS WORKS BECAUSE THIS MATCHUP SUUUUUUUCKS" move at that point. Which if you are relying on Klaw to get anywhere you probably already lost the fight before it began.

Oh and Bowser's on top of you. And he's the heaviest. Makes sense he dies first right? Wrong.

 

[pitfall356]

I've brought this up more than once. It's good that Bowser dies first, but what needs to be changed is this: When Bowser releases his opponent, they should be released into a helpless state. Bowser dies first, and the cast can no longer recover from klaw. Keeps the big issue down while fixing one of the bigger flaws. It's a fair balance.

I agree that suicides are boring moves. Ganon's is the only one that kills first and it's obvious by now that it won't be changed. I just wish klaw could get some love from the balance team.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If the move guaranteed no recovery for the opponent I'd be happy, until then the move will always come with the risk of being a liability.

 

[Xandercosm]

Ganondorf's should not be changed. It's insanely situational and hard to pull off even when the opponent is in the right place for it. Plus, Ganondorf is one of the worst characters in the entire game. So, please, don't ask for a low tier to be nerfed.

 

[Putuk]

You guys are boring.

 

[Xandercosm]

You guys are boring.

tf ad is that from?!

 

[MagiusNecros]

You guys are boring.

You just made the thread unboring.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

While that GIF is hilarious, it's obvious where this thread is going. Locked.