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I guess it's largely player-based, maybe I personally just have a rough time dealing with Pika's toolset. It's hard to outright define these ratios because of how much it's based on whether people actually know how to play against a Jr. player. Whenever I play AZ falcons though (#3 PR is a falcon main, for one), it seems pretty heavily in our favor so long as we play the spacing game right.
sadly, all I can say it "outplay" her in mindgames and aim for the luma!Sorry if this was already asked and talked about. But how in the world do you guys deal with a campy rosalina who adapts to your mixups and consistently absorbs mechakoopa as well as having good DI to avoid any possible combo or kill setup. My little brother got so good at playing rosalina pls help lmao
Little mac most definitely is not his best matchup.
his good matchups are vs characters that have big frames (let's jr take advantage of his good advantage state) and poor mobility (harder to punish his unsafe moves).
Dair and dash attack knock luma away a decent distance.
Spinout was suggested as an option if the luma is desynced. I should definitely mention that throwing spinout into rosas shield is obviously not a top notch option lol.
*Everyone precedes to ignore your post.Discuss
Mr Moosebones
and
krazyzyko
since you may have more experience then I do.
Everyone ignores it because check the date lol. Now lets discuss bayonetta*Everyone precedes to ignore your post.
Luckily I've basically been playing against just Cloud's for the past week since he's my crew's flavor of the week. Unfortunately though I've been basically only playing Mewtwo though I did pull out Ludwig a few times and here is what I could gather.
-Kart Dash needs to be used wisely. You can't just throw this out willy nilly like in other MU's even as a mix-up. His sword beam can completely cover our jump and dash at the same time if he times it off a SH correctly. It doesn't completely negate side-b but it's one of Cloud's easiest options to stop it. If you want to dash throw out a mech first so that way it can block the sword beam; note that it takes a least two fresh sword beams to destroy a mech.
-Respect his range atm. This one will probably change if I can get a better grasp on the MU but I found that it's best right now to respect his disjoint. Specifically his aerials, they have little landing lag for the most part so punishing them oos is pretty difficult. I would suggest trying to stay out of his range and avoid getting greedy with oos punishes cause they may not work out in your favor. We've had a bad track record against disjoints so this could be the break or make for this MU.
-Use mechs a lot. Mech set-ups are crucial against Cloud since he has not easy way to stop them reliably. He can dash attack to try and pick them up though that's really easy to punish even if he doesn't hit your shield. Like against any other character only throw them out when you are either in an advantageous position or playing a keep away neutral game. My friends quickly realized that getting rid of mechs was not the best way to proceed so they instead tried to avoid them by either jumping or sitting on a top platform.
-His u-air is not so threatening against us. Cloud's u-air is notorious for being one of the best juggling tools in the game and while he can juggle us pretty if we are careless, for the most part we can easily avoid them with smart side-b's. That being said I would not try to go straight for the stage but rather I would try to grab ledge. Cloud doesn't have the best way to cover get-ups or gimp recoveries (though watch out for his d-air since it lingers).
-Be warry of his d-air if you are juggling. Cloud's d-air is pretty good at stopping juggles because of it's range, disjoint, and lingering hitbox. It's not too threatening though and can easily be read, just letting you know to keep your eyes out.
-Were heavy af so Cloud can't kill reliably outside of Finishing Touch since his edge-guarding is **** and his smashes are slow.
-Cloud's recovery is **** without Limit Break. This should come as no surprise to anyone but we wreck Cloud anywhere off-stage. His recovery doesn't sweetspot the ledge nor does he have anyway to extend his horizontal recovery. This just screams Koopaling food, most of our game plan is going to revolve around getting him offstage and though the hoops you go through may be a bit more difficult but the reward is so high if you can just hit him once. Also don't over complicate your edge-guard. I found something as simple as using a downward angled f-smash to do the job quite well. If Cloud's got a LB on deck or your not quite confident you can gimp him, don't fret and trying covering his get-up options instead. Yeah I would be beating a dead horse if I said that we have among the best ledge coverage in the game so I'll just leave it at that. Overall horizontally killing him is the best way to go especially since side-b --> up-b is harder to kill with.
Overall there is still a ton of research to be done so I wouldn't write the MU as anything quite yet. I feel it could sway in either characters favor as more people learn how to play Cloud and given out track record against characters with disjoints I could see Cloud overall winning.
I want some feedback on this
(BTW do we have a name for side-b --> up-b?)
I is of high dumbness.
This surprises me. Vs DK I am always concerned about his good air mobility, reward (esp from grab), and range. Not to mention his good Bair. We have good advantage, but his is probably even better vs us.
Ridel
- I've only played Clouds on FG so I don't have that much experience in the MU with that many good players. But what I've learned so far is to pressure him on mid range because if Jr is too far, cloud will charge his limit bar and if you stay too close he'll usually start a combo with his superior frame data.
I never knew how annoying mega man who as until I got lemon'd out for a whole match, sadly I didn't learn much.
Nice, that also works with Ryu's srk.
). I've also had a surprising amount of success with Down 3, Big Mechas, since it can not only STILL be able to plow through the entirety of DH's arsenal (especially when thrown), but it can tank a full shot-up Clay and still keep walking towards him, acting as a mobile guardian of sorts that can still be picked up & thrown after tanking the whole Clay shoot-up. DO be wary of DH stealing Mechas, through, and get ready to Paradigm Shift (I personally imagine "Chaos" from the FF13-3 OST (aka Lightning Returns) at the 02:34 mark coming on when that happens... X>) in response to DH either trying to keep you out or even get in on you with it (the latter is what I'd actually recommend doing AS DH, due to how much DH's arsenal has to respect Jr's Mechas & Cannonballs, plus I'm naturally inclined to aggressively rushdown folks as both Jr & DH anyways, hence the above song in orange text).). However, Jr's BThrow KOs DH sooner (at around 150+%??) than DH's UThrow KOs Jr (200+% with good DI on Jr's part??), and while Jr's weight DOES make it easier for DH to juggle him, it also contributes to DH's usual troubles with KO-ing folks, since Jr's among the heavier folks in the cast (within the top 10 heaviest, if I recall), IF DH does NOT go deep off-stage for the edgeguard (Walls make this easier for DH) with moves like sourspot NAir after we use our Up 1 or 2. On that note, if we can go to a stage withOUT walls at the bottom (ex. Smashville, T&C, certain Omegas), we can use Side B Spinouts before spending our jumps (including the Side B JC) to travel underneath the stage to the other side of it. Thus, Jr's already substantial KO power in direct comparison to DH's gets boosted even further with rage, so if he can remain as persistent as Justin Wong during the famous Evo2k7 Moment, he'll be "On the board [with] the chance to make it~".
Discussion for the Toon Link and Bowser Jr. matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.
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Discussion 14 - Brawlers II
Lucas Frame Data
Charizard Frame Data
No old quotes for Lucas.
Discussion will be closed on Friday, January 29.
