Bowser in doubles

[ImaClubYou]

I haven't done any other research on the other characters. I literally only played Bowser the whole time.

He seems like a good teams partner from general speculation and gameplay.

FIRE BREATH

As of now, his fire breaths range is gigantic, it can potentially be one of the best partner saving moves in the game and with the new mechanics of ledge hogging and the fact that Bowsers fire starts fast AND ends fast, it will be no longer be a problem to get back on stage safely adding his buffed recovery. Fire is also great defensively in teams, while your partner is on the offensive, you can stand back and spit some fire at the other opposing player. It also serves as a pseudo stage hazard for your opponent while your teammate takes a traditional edge guard.

Overall, Bowser's fire breath looks like a great move in singles or doubles. It covers half of Battlefield and can reach above platforms as well.

GRAB SETUPS

Grab setups. Obviously, no one has time to practice spacing so precisely at this time. Bowser, seems to have the strongest attacks at the moment that doesn't involve charging. Forward Smash from a grab setup may be possible and with how powerful horizontal kills seem to be, he may possibly be what Fox was in Melee, except sideways.

However, when Bowser grabs opponents themselves it doesn't look like your teammate can do these setups. Bowsers claw goes past the opponent he grabs and looks as if it counts as a hurtbox. This isn't confirmed, but it may be detrimental to Bowser grab setups.

BOWSER BOMB

If you watched the Smash portion of Treehouse Live, you definitely remember when Bowser broke Yoshi's FULL HEALTHY SHIELD with the sweetspot of the Bowser Bomb. Throwing this in doubles unexpectedly will instantly turn the tide in battle. You can strategize whether or not to attack the stunned player with a finisher or team combo or leave him to 2v1 the other player. Not to mention the move got incredibly buffed from the last 2 games, killing at around 80%(post alpha).

It's also still able to grab ledges. I have no idea how this works if a character grabs a ledge befoehand, but if it hits that's a plus, right?

JAB/FTILT

These moves come out pretty fast and they seem to have the range of Melee Marth. You can imagine the pressure you can implement just by having a presence 2-3 character spaces away from your opponent. Ftilt also links seamlessly with jab almost looking like it's part of the move.

OFFENSIVE PRESSURE

Bowser is definitely a finisher. Half is move set is a kill move. When paired with combo heavy characters like say: Mario, Greninja, WFT, ZSS, Bowser's heavy hits may be able to kill at %'s where others can't.

DEFENSIVE OPTIONS

Bowser's long range fire, Up B out of shield is now multi hit and apparently pseudo spike, Bowser's grabs send you far(though this is apparent for everyone), mid range attacks rivaling Melee Marth, confirmed armor on some moves, and just a scary presence!

Bowser looks to be a great doubles partner! When paired with someone fast hitting and combo orientated, the odds look almost insurmountable! He can switch from offense, to defense, to support at any time!

However, it doesn't seem like double Bowser looks like a good idea, or even double big characters even like DK. Bowser just looks to be most effective with quick characters. Just a funny feeling, it doesn't mean I won't enjoy some Bowser team ditto's though!

Any thoughts? This topic should not be limited to just doubles.

We can discuss any and all possible tactics we can come up with for Bowser here!

 

[Jerodak]

Side b is harder to punish now because it actually damages as soon as you land, as opposed to how it worked in Brawl where you pause and give someone a chance to hit you. It also does not seem to go as high or be airborne as long as it used to, and gains armor while airborne, http://youtu.be/SKC5KFwEhNM?t=1m35s so gone are the days where a partner playing pit or falco could just wait for you to land then shoot you out of it. Last but not least, it also has a LANDING HITBOX! So you could grab one member of the opposing team then land on the other, perhaps K.Oing the both of them. This may be a double-edged sword however since if the shared control is still similar to Brawl then they can do the same to your teammate. I could still see the last two buffs being very useful in the rosalina match since you could grab rosa and land on luma. Even if you don't K.O you send them both flying further apart.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I was debating how good the Klaw was since it wasn't the best in Brawl especially since it's kill power was certainly underpowered and it left you open for a looong time.

But with that video it's actually REALLY good. At least halfway through the attack. The biggest problem in my case was actually getting them in the first place. Of course, this is me just getting used to the game. And it may just be me, but when you use it in the air it feels like your momentum changes all wonky.

The other problem is even if you do get someone, you take about 1.5 seconds to actually initiate "lift off" because of animation.

But, after you start falling the move magically becomes some top tier level ****. You get armor from it meaning nothings stopping you from doing what you're about to do except maybe a super strong attack or a grab. It also has an active hitbox(on fall or on impact?) making grabbing a little bit close to impossible since you can't always space something with free control by both players. And it kills at like 80. Great move.

However, it doesn't seem to really shine as a doubles move as much as a singles move. It looks like it would create a lot of chaos actually.

 

[Jerodak]

However, it doesn't seem to really shine as a doubles move as much as a singles move. It looks like it would create a lot of chaos actually.

I can agree with this, but at the very least, it's no longer rendered almost useless in team battles like it used to be. Or in match ups vs a dual character such as Rosalina and Luma. I don't mind the new grabbing animation too much either since you're not likely to get hit out of it unless they are prepared and in a position to hit you before the start-up is finished. It also appears to still have the really good aerial hitbox so it could still be used in a somewhat similar manner to Brawl when spacing against aerials. I'm probably going to miss koopahopping at first, but I'll get over it. Also what do you mean by momentum? Do you mean similar to Brawl where if you use it in the air you're stuck going the direction you were moving till the animation finishes or does it actually change your momentum somehow?

 

[ImaClubYou]

I can agree with this, but at the very least, it's no longer rendered almost useless in team battles like it used to be. Or in match ups vs a dual character such as Rosalina and Luma. I don't mind the new grabbing animation too much either since you're not likely to get hit out of it unless they are prepared and in a position to hit you before the start-up is finished. It also appears to still have the really good aerial hitbox so it could still be used in a somewhat similar manner to Brawl when spacing against aerials. I'm probably going to miss koopahopping at first, but I'll get over it. Also what do you mean by momentum? Do you mean similar to Brawl where if you use it in the air you're stuck going the direction you were moving till the animation finishes or does it actually change your momentum somehow?

When I used it in the demo I felt as if Bowser gotten lighter when the move was active. It's probably just me, though.

 

[Number1MinunFan]

Double Bowser is gonna be Hell to beat

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser still has the classic doubles problem of being a big target that's easy to hit. A lot of heavyweights in doubles can be less powerful in practice since you have to worry about accidentally hitting your teammate with a powerful attack due to your large hitboxes. Even so, Bowser has definite strengths and can be an effective stock tank with the right partner. He'll be useful in doubles, but probably not as OP as you might think.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser still has the classic doubles problem of being a big target that's easy to hit. A lot of heavyweights in doubles can be less powerful in practice since you have to worry about accidentally hitting your teammate with a powerful attack due to your large hitboxes. Even so, Bowser has definite strengths and can be an effective stock tank with the right partner. He'll be useful in doubles, but probably not as OP as you might think.

I agree that he will not be OP in doubles, but he will be more effective than in previous iterations, now he actually has more options in the doubles setting and because he appears to control space a little better now, as long as he's positioned correctly, he'll be better at limiting the other team's movement and positioning options. This isn't to say that he'll be an outright stone wall or anything but you'll have one hell of a time trying to roll past someone's attacks when it means you will end up rolling into one of Bowser's hitboxes. Also, since klaw isn't almost worthless in doubles now, thanks to to the armor and additional hitbox, he actually gets the ability to use that a little more in the doubles setting without being knocked out of it by a projectile or tilt as easily as before. His main role wil probably be about the same, with perhaps a few new additional roles he can take on, but it looks like now he'll be a lot better at whatever he does.

Speaking of possible new roles, I wonder if now it'll be possible for Bowser to play a more aggressive game on point for his team with his new mobility and attacks. I mean, if your partner is just playing a support role, perhaps someone like Rosalina or Megaman, with Bowser taking point, you wouldn't need to worry about ever hitting them since they likely won't be directly involved in the action. So Bowser could cut loose with his attacks and focus on helping the character behind him play their role. Do you think this could be a possible change for Bowser in doubles, or will he perhaps remain in a more defensive role?

 

[Zigsta]

While it's true that Bowser is still a large target and will most definitely have his fair share of getting thrown around in doubles, his new and improved dair, nair, bair, and Bowser Bomb will absolutely help cover his massive blindspot--in Brawl this was arguably his largest weakness in doubles. Bowser could still use someone with multiple jumps/good recovery to save Bowser if need be.

Sadly since his dthrow doesn't have set knockback anymore, it can't be used for guaranteed smash setups for your partner. The fact that throws now launch opponents much farther, it's likely going to be a lot trickier for Bowser to follow up should his teammate throw an opponent towards Bowser. In Brawl for example Bowser was great at smashing a thrown enemy on command when his partner threw said opponent Bowser's way. What's more likely to see is Bowser's smash setups happening on platforms or Bowser following up with aerials. This definitely won't be nearly as easy to follow up in Brawl but I'm sure we'll see more teams throw followups as the competitive scene continues to grow and stable teammates become more established.

 

[Jerodak]

While it's true that Bowser is still a large target and will most definitely have his fair share of getting thrown around in doubles, his new and improved dair, nair, bair, and Bowser Bomb will absolutely help cover his massive blindspot--in Brawl this was arguably his largest weakness in doubles. Bowser could still use someone with multiple jumps/good recovery to save Bowser if need be.

Sadly since his dthrow doesn't have set knockback anymore, it can't be used for guaranteed smash setups for your partner. The fact that throws now launch opponents much farther, it's likely going to be a lot trickier for Bowser to follow up should his teammate throw an opponent towards Bowser. In Brawl for example Bowser was great at smashing a thrown enemy on command when his partner threw said opponent Bowser's way. What's more likely to see is Bowser's smash setups happening on platforms or Bowser following up with aerials. This definitely won't be nearly as easy to follow up in Brawl but I'm sure we'll see more teams throw followups as the competitive scene continues to grow and stable teammates become more established.

I wonder if that means Bowser will be doing more offstage throwing in that case, maybe for gimp or spike set-ups?

 

[Zigsta]

Judging from the high altitude at which oppoents get thrown by Bowser's throws, I can totally see teammate dair followups, provided your teammate is high enough to begin with. Offhand you could also do Megaman's upair. If MK comes back and keeps his jumps, he'd easily be able to follow up with aerials.