Bowser Bomb edge-guarding

[BarSoapSoup]

Have we ever experimented with this before? I have been labbing a bit with various Smashers on Bowser Bombing to the ledge from on-stage to ledge. I've had some success with it, although part of my failures I would say are due to my own inabilities to ledge trump well, but it can be done.

I tested Bowser Bomb edge-guarding on Sheik, King DeDeDe, Sonic and Mega Man. I will do more later, if this is something new to Bowser players, but if not, then I'll just stop now and say I learned a new trick.

 

[Conn1496]

It's actually something I've been very aware of and working with for a long while. It's good for a couple of reasons, actually - the first being that the horns on the up-swing actually catch people if they lost their invincibility, giving you what is basically a free kill, and the second being that even if they don't have invincibility, there's a good chance you'll ledge trump them, or catch a get-up option. The only get up that's really safe is a roll, but I've actually used a reverse bomb as a mix-up to catch rollers before, too.

I dunno if the horns will still catch players vulnerable on the ledge if you B-reverse it (I don't think they do.), and obviously you lose the actual bomb of the move if you do, but it might still be a good option to toy around with, especially since it's still a good mix-up against people who are rolling out of it towards the ledge.

The only problem I have is its fairly strict spacing when trying to use it as a ledge trump, so just be careful of that and you should be fine. Obviously using Fortress is still a good option too, so don't forget about that.

 

[Cronoc]

Not new, and has been used in tournament situations in some of the older Bowser matches. The problem is it has to be very well timed, whereas a dtilt, offstage edge-guard, run-off ledge trump, or catching ledge options can be executed with more precise timing. With a Bowser bomb to catch a recovery, you have to correctly predict the future about a second (60 frames) ahead. As Bowser we regularly predict the future 12-20 frames ahead, but 60 frames is much harder to predict reliably, and depending on the character's recovery, the window for Bowser bomb to hit them could be as low as 3-5 frames. It's fun to use though, and occasionally remind the opponent Bowser can do it.

My preference with Bowser bomb at the ledge is to use it as a very hard read for a regular getup, leaving Bowser on the ledge if I miss so as to avoid punishment for landing onstage. But it's a rare thing to pull out. Edit: the rising hit of the move can hit some characters once they've lost invincibility at the ledge, but I don't know who specifically is vulnerable to that off the top of my head.

 

[Conn1496]

Edit: the rising hit of the move can hit some characters once they've lost invincibility at the ledge, but I don't know who specifically is vulnerable to that off the top of my head.

If I'm not mistaken, I think it's actually the entire cast bar like... -maybe 2 characters... I could be really wrong on that though, though personally, I never had a problem with this. If your opponent is ledge vulnerable for some reason, its still worth going for, IMO.

 

[MeteorSpike]

I can say it works well, but it needs strict timing.
Bowser can force one of three bad options onto recovering opponents by taking advantage of the fact that down.b can snap to ledges:
1. They get bomb'd
2. They get trumped
3. They, in order to avoid getting trumped, must perform a mash-able option from the ledge (attack, roll, or jump)
Option 1 is already nice because they eat about 20% and suffer high knockback.
Option 2 is nice because Bowser's b.air is generally large and fast enough to punish most ledge trumps cleanly, regardless of individual character-trump-paths/arcs.
Option 3 is more of something to be baited: If you know your opponent is expecting a trump and thus buffering to counter it, you can use that to varying degrees of your advantage, ranging from a free hit, to a punish, to even something as minor as positional advantage/stage control.
If customs come into question, I much prefer doing this with down3, because Bowser gets to the "bombing" part noticeably faster with down3 (the tripping "slip bomb") compared to down1 (default) and down2, with minimal damage output traded from down1 (I think the "bomb" from down3 does about 18 or 19% fresh, while the "bomb" from down1 does 20 or 21% fresh).
In other words, down1 is noticeably slower in general, so it's harder to intercept recoveries with it compared to down3.

 

[ZeldaZephyr]

I'm a Bowser secondary and I was wondering at what percent should i go for when trying to edgeguard with the Bowser Bomb and what do I do when some tries to air-dodge from the bomb and trumps me.

 

[Jerodak]

Honestly, I think the best scenarios for this are when you're dealing with a recovery that can't snap like Shulk or Cloud up b. Or if you think they will delay snapping the ledge manually. It covers them trying to hit you or just not grabbing the ledge quickly enough but don't use it exclusively for trumping, it's way too easy to see coming.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Slipbomb is amazing for ledgeguarding and forcing the "force off ledge > Bair" shenanigans.

 

[Cronoc]

I'm a Bowser secondary and I was wondering at what percent should i go for when trying to edgeguard with the Bowser Bomb and what do I do when some tries to air-dodge from the bomb and trumps me.

If you're mis-timing it you're either going to have to adjust that timing or go with one of the safer options available to you. Doing a plain ledge trump online is tough, getting it consistent offline is still difficult, but it's harder to see coming than bombing to the ledge. If that's presenting difficulty (because it's seriously hard to do), just remember there are more guaranteed, if less flashy ways of putting on damage or stuffing recoveries than ledge trumps.

 

[ZeldaZephyr]

Okay. Any other tips I should know. I'm trying to get better as Bowser.

 

[Cronoc]

Okay. Any other tips I should know. I'm trying to get better as Bowser.

Watch some of the recent tournament footage from Cassius, Le Troof, Kingkong and even the recent Chaos set (though for some reason he refuses to use nair as a uthrow followup and it annoys me). Unfortunately the video thread isn't current, but get in the Bowser discord and you'll see videos posted. Otherwise, perhaps see if someone in the discord server will do some Bowser dittos with you online. Personally, most of the major adjustments I've made since the game came out that made me a better Bowser were after getting stomped on in dittos. Seeing what another Bowser can do to you makes you want to try and do it yourself...

 

[ZeldaZephyr]

Thanks! I appreciate the advice!

 

[metroidfan987]

I do this all the time. I primarily try to get them on their up-b. Used like this, the move is like a Russian Roulette, they never know when I'll nail the timing. Unfortunately, the only human players I play are on For Glory, so I don't know how well I'd use it against a good player.

 

[Big Sean]

You never want to bowser bomb the ledge because you want the trump. The problem with that is that it takes on the order of ~38 frames to touch the ledge. That's well over the human reaction time of 250ms. So any remotely competent player will bufffer a trump option as you are bowser bombing.

That's not to say you shouldn't bowser bomb the ledge. You should definitely do it when you think someone is hanging out around the ledge too long, like ness' who rising fair from the ledge, or sheik's who bouncing fish around the ledge. If you want to trump, learn to properly trump. It's really really hard, but the rewards are worth learning it.

 

[metroidfan987]

I need to know how long the invincibility frames last after the ledge snap. Then I can decide whether to BB the ledge from the ground, or from the air. Obviously, this estimate would have to be adjusted when fighting grapplers.

 

[MeteorSpike]

I need to know how long the invincibility frames last after the ledge snap. Then I can decide whether to BB the ledge from the ground, or from the air. Obviously, this estimate would have to be adjusted when fighting grapplers.

It's variable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nybHO680zrE

 

[metroidfan987]

Ledge Intangiblity Decay...this will require further research.