Bombs, bombs and more bombs

[Morgue]

Hello fellow Samus players! I am here to discuss and inquire about bombs and their uses.

We all know that SWD and bomb jumps are of the most notable uses of these, so I am hoping to focus more on the other uses of it, practical or not.

I use my bombs most often for defense and spacing with a touch of edgegaurding. I'm pretty sure I use my bombs more than I should. Around 65+% after being hit, I will drop a bomb (midair) to push myself farther away as well as using the bomb as an obstacle for my opponent to prevent them from following up with a combo. There is more that can be said on this, but I want to know if there are any others that use bombs in this manner.

Another utility of bombs is edgeguarding. I have read some posts in other threads of users dropping a bomb on Fox/Falco's head during their Up-B (their idle time). I have never used bombs in this manner. I will typically run to the edge after a homing SHMC or something and drop a bomb off the edge. This works very well against Marth as it can turn him around.

On other stages, I will drop a bomb and run off the edge to get hit by Marth's Up-B, having him get hit by the bomb leaving me time to Bair him with a stage spike. It works on FoD at roughly 40-50% on Marth.

I believe it is almost useless to use bombs in any of these manners against Shiek or Fox due to their speed. Falco is slow enough where this would work. Regarding the use against Puff or any other match-up, I have no clue.

So does anyone use bombs in these manners? Are there any uses that have some success that I do not know about?

Perhaps this is just a low-level playstyle which is why HugS, Plup and all the other acclaimed Sami don't use bombs like this.

`Captain (CPT)

 

[JerkPhil]

If you have the time to lay a bomb during your opponent's combo, it isn't a combo.

I use bombs in certain match up to hinder my opponents' movement. I mostly do this vs Falcons.
When I Dair grounded opponents with no DI, I sometimes follow up with Bomb-Nair.
If my opponent is shielding, I often pressure with bomblands or bomb-Dair. Done easier on opponents shielding on platforms above you.
I don't use bombs for edgeguards, but I might start using them. Run off stage, bomb, and weave back in to stage. Our down-angled Ftilt/Fsmash and our Utilt are very good edguarding tools already.

 

[Morgue]

I suppose combo isn't the right word choice then. I prevent them from following up by bombing; that sounds better.

I will do the same with a dair or nair off of a bomb as well. Samus has so many good edgegaurding capabilities, is one more too much?

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

I suppose combo isn't the right word choice then. I prevent them from following up by bombing; that sounds better.

I will do the same with a dair or nair off of a bomb as well. Samus has so many good edgegaurding capabilities, is one more too much?

I believe what you are talking about is when the opponent has won the neutral game and you are attempting to defend yourself from the opponent to regain your footing

 

[Morgue]

You are correct, sir.

I actually just started (barely) practicing wavebombing for shield pressure. I have heard that it is much easier to use when an opponent is above you on a platform. Are there any setups for shield pressure via morphball bombs on the stage itself, or above a platform? Possibly a bomb>dair (opponent techs/lands on platform) >SH bombs?

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

The bombs work best against ground dominate characters, such as ice climbers. Ice climbers like to Crouch cancel into grab, so the bombs enable you to bomb attack and bomb again due to the bounce after a bomb detonates. Outside of that the only characters that bombs destroy are those who crouch cancel or a heavily dominate on the ground.

 

[Litt]

I suppose combo isn't the right word choice then. I prevent them from following up by bombing; that sounds better.

I will do the same with a dair or nair off of a bomb as well. Samus has so many good edgegaurding capabilities, is one more too much?

Uses for bombs:

dj laybomb on the ledge of stage and roll back onto the ledge, some players will try and fsmash into the bomb because they thought you were going to wd on stage, then you get a free nair.

wavebombing: bomb on opponent or their shield, wavedash back to ground after explosion, takes away like a 4th of their shield

Bomb on shield into dair, also multi bomb on shield into dair if they are on a platform shielding and you bomb on the lowest part of their shield you could get 2-3 off

Bomb zair cancels, bomb airdodge --> zair, into whatever move you want, i prefer dair and nair

Bomb OoS, c stick up then down b, lets you lay a bomb where you were in shield then di away from the aggressor and punish for them running into your bomb

remember all of these are mix ups and should never be the central focus of your game

 

[Morgue]

I have never heard of bomb OoS before, very interesting.

I understand these should never be the main focus of what I do, I was just curious. Last night I was shown what I need to work on, by getting bodied by Tapion, felt good, but so bad.

 

[Morgue]

So..I was looking over the frame data for dropping bombs, and I am curious why Samus' hurtbox (Character outline, is this correct?) changes from yellow to blue for a few fr mes after the bomb is dropped. I am still pretty new (not by date of membership) to forums and am having trouble uploading the .gif itself.
http://file:///C:/Users/mafaas/Desktop/tEyKm.gif
The same invincible blue outline shows for the Screw Attack as well. Why does the frame data show it like this?

`Captain

 

[343]

(click the button that looks like a landscape picture, beside the smiley face)

I guess this means some tiny part of Samus (the part that sticks out of morphball) is invincible during the bomb animation? That means you only get hit if they hit the morphball, I guess. It's sort of weird that the morphball itself isn't yellow, but I doubt it really matters much; if you're obviously getting hit, you'll get hit.

Screw attack, on the other hand, is invincible from frames 1-5, says http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-hitboxes-and-frame-data.320253/.

 

[Morgue]

I tried, and it gave me the broken image icon, so I didn't bother looking at the preview, haha.

Yeah, not sure why the frame data shows an invincible part of Samus in morph ball, but I guess I'll take it?

And yeah, the Screw Attack invincibility frames I knew about already, just curious why blue = invicibility, with this being the exception.

`Captain

 

[Lime Cultivist]

They can certainly be useful for resetting the situation, but up-b out of shield is more effective as far as out of shield options go, so long as the opponent doesn't smash di out of it and if there's a platform to land on. Against a more grounded enemy it seems they're most useful, and for edge guarding as well. I always forget to use them, but I don't know if that hurts or helps my game.

 

[Litt]

They can certainly be useful for resetting the situation, but up-b out of shield is more effective as far as out of shield options go, so long as the opponent doesn't smash di out of it and if there's a platform to land on. Against a more grounded enemy it seems they're most useful, and for edge guarding as well. I always forget to use them, but I don't know if that hurts or helps my game.

Wrong, at lower percents opponents can just CC the Up and then you are left helpless, or they can even angle their shield downward towards you and the Up B wont shield poke them, bomb OoS is theoretically a safer option, its just not as helpful in escaping pressure, but it does have its uses

 

[343]

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying: Opponents can definitely CC/angle shield to not get hit by up-b, but up-b is invincible frames 1-5 and hits starting on frame 4, while the bomb doesn't even come out until frame 10 (but if it does and the bomb hits their shield you should be relatively safe if you can bombjump/bomb-waveland). So _if_ you can get the bomb to come out it's safer, but if you're getting pressured there's not much chance that you can actually bomb.

Also wait, this is something that I also don't understand about frames because I am very ignorant: when you up-b out of shield, does it start after the 3-frame jumpsquat, or can you up-b immediately 1 frame after you enter jumpsquat? And when you bomb oos, you need to wait until you're in the air (so the 4th frame after pressing jump) before you can try to lay the bomb, right?

 

[Morgue]

I believe you can Up-B on jump squat frame 1. Due to the invincibility frames on the Screw Attack, I personally prefer the Up-B OoS. It would take massive amounts of time to perfect the timing of wavebombing out of shield, essentially.

Say you are getting pillar shield pressure by Falco...you only have, what, 4-5 frames to do something? Since the bomb comes out on frame 10, it doesn't seem likely. Also, your opponent has to be directly on top of you in order to wavebomb. And anyone who is very good at shield pressure should know their opponents reach OoS.

On a side note: I don't think there is enough time to do anything against perfect Falco pillars OTHER than Up-B OoS. I have been told to roll, but that is a definte "Uhh...no?" moment.

`Captain

 

[GoomySmash]

Woah, I never realized that samus has a single frame of yellow hitbox during her bomb. I think that the change from aerial physics to ground physics is what causes that. It seems like that's what happens as soon as samus hits the ground. I've also noticed she pops up a tiny bit on the non-invincible frame as well. Weird.

 

[Litt]

Woah, I never realized that samus has a single frame of yellow hitbox during her bomb. I think that the change from aerial physics to ground physics is what causes that. It seems like that's what happens as soon as samus hits the ground. I've also noticed she pops up a tiny bit on the non-invincible frame as well. Weird.

Sir what are you talking about? There are all non-invincible frames during a bomb (exception bomb jump she is invulnerable frame 2)... also please go to some science classes in school... just because two things are CORRELATED... does not PROVE CAUSALITY... saying the change from aerial physics to ground physics is what causes that... is just asinine. It is just part of the creation, whether or not one is caused by the other is only really known to the game designers, and its also possible with enough coding to remove that animation. Just be careful about the words you use and think more and read again before you post :/

 

[GoomySmash]

Sir what are you talking about? There are all non-invincible frames during a bomb (exception bomb jump she is invulnerable frame 2)... also please go to some science classes in school... just because two things are CORRELATED... does not PROVE CAUSALITY... saying the change from aerial physics to ground physics is what causes that... is just asinine. It is just part of the creation, whether or not one is caused by the other is only really known to the game designers, and its also possible with enough coding to remove that animation. Just be careful about the words you use and think more and read again before you post :/

LOL yeah I'm not a scientist and I probably was phrasing that whole thing wrong, but there's definitely something weird going on during that single frame where samus touches the ground. I've also seen that when you do a bomb and you can see the shadow it also disappears on the frame that her morphball has a yellow hurtbox.

I was a bit confused at first why samus' morph ball had blue sticking out of it because I've been hit while in morph ball, but now I realize only the visible part of her is invincible but the inside of her morph ball still has yellow hurtboxes.

 

[Litt]

LOL yeah I'm not a scientist and I probably was phrasing that whole thing wrong, but there's definitely something weird going on during that single frame where samus touches the ground. I've also seen that when you do a bomb and you can see the shadow it also disappears on the frame that her morphball has a yellow hurtbox.

I was a bit confused at first why samus' morph ball had blue sticking out of it because I've been hit while in morph ball, but now I realize only the visible part of her is invincible but the inside of her morph ball still has yellow hurtboxes.

See how you were posting previously in such definitive terms... you are not an experienced or well known samus, plz stahp and just ask these ask questions or post in inquisitive terms towards the other sami to verify or confirm findings

 

[Morgue]

Goomy,

If you read up on the SWD thread, there is speculation within that thread as to why a SWD occurs. This 1-frame continuity error in Samus' hurtbox as she touches the ground is part of the mystery. I suggest you read all about the 'why' on the SWD. It's actually pretty cool.

Also, individual parts of Samus do not become invincible (i.e. Yoshi's head | U-smash) because she can still be hit during any point of a morph ball bomb (Not bomb-jumping). Most likely cause for Samus becoming blue is a developer error in color coating the hurtbox blue instead of yellow. Color doesn't 100% determine invincibility, it is just the standard for which this game is designed. And we all know humans are not perfect when making/doing anything.

Hope this helps.

@ Litt ,

Goomy thought there were invincible frames within morphball because Samus' hurtbox changes to the 'invicible color' in the hitbox and frame data; for anyone who does not know, it could be very easy to misunderstand if they are only looking at the .gif files and none of the numerical data. Please do not put down everyone that you get the chance to, and stop with the insults. Seriously. I've already ignored all your posts, and yet I still have to deal with what you say in email.

 

[Litt]

Goomy,

If you read up on the SWD thread, there is speculation within that thread as to why a SWD occurs. This 1-frame continuity error in Samus' hurtbox as she touches the ground is part of the mystery. I suggest you read all about the 'why' on the SWD. It's actually pretty cool.

Also, individual parts of Samus do not become invincible (i.e. Yoshi's head | U-smash) because she can still be hit during any point of a morph ball bomb (Not bomb-jumping). Most likely cause for Samus becoming blue is a developer error in color coating the hurtbox blue instead of yellow. Color doesn't 100% determine invincibility, it is just the standard for which this game is designed. And we all know humans are not perfect when making/doing anything.

Hope this helps.

@ Litt ,

Goomy thought there were invincible frames within morphball because Samus' hurtbox changes to the 'invicible color' in the hitbox and frame data; for anyone who does not know, it could be very easy to misunderstand if they are only looking at the .gif files and none of the numerical data. Please do not put down everyone that you get the chance to, and stop with the insults. Seriously. I've already ignored all your posts, and yet I still have to deal with what you say in email.

You have to understand here, I was not putting Goomy down. I was telling him to not put what he says into definitive terms, as if he knows what he is talking about, when there is a chance he can be wrong... as he was here. When you phrase what you want to talk about here as a question, it promotes discussion as to the why and why not for the question posed. HOWEVER, when you not only speculate as Goomy did, he flat out asserted that X was the case, and then the realm of discussion goes to... No Goomy you are wrong or Yes Goomy you are right. One of those leads to an agrument, one of them leads to no discussion... if you think about what I am getting at, I am promoting the use of facilitating language on here, instead of discouraging posting. There was no ill intent here despite what you believe, just because I like to be a ****, does not mean I am 100% of the time.

 

[C-SAF]

See how you were posting previously in such definitive terms... you are not an experienced or well known samus, plz stahp and just ask these ask questions or post in inquisitive terms towards the other sami to verify or confirm findings

@ GoomySmash

Just ignore him, Barbie thinks he's the god of these boards

 

[Litt]

@ GoomySmash

Just ignore him, Barbie thinks he's the god of these boards

Hey C-SAF how about you just shut the hell up, just because you dont like me does not mean you have to spread around your distaste, if you were to lead by example... if you have nothing nice to say dont say it at all... however you choose to stoop to what you believe my level to be and insult me

 

[Litt]

Also... no if I was an admin, thennnn we all would have a problem here. Thank god for that

 

[xleo_samusx]

I have had some success laying a bomb about 45 degrees above someone while they are shielding, WD'ing behind them, and F-smashing them into it. The momentum from the F-smash is cancelled and you may be able to get a follow up, not sure about the follow up.

 

[Morgue]

Thanks for the comment Leo, I like throwing bombs out during neutral, I will give that a try.

 

[xleo_samusx]

I personally think creative bomb use could push Samus up the tier list just a little bit. Watch Darrell and you will know what I mean.

 

[Morgue]

I have a habit of dropping bombs on/near the ledge as people (i.e. Marth) try to recover, the bomb screws them up (sometimes turning them around) and usually forces them into a panic mode where they Up-B asap afterwards, putting them on the stage for an Fsmash/Dsmash/Charged Shot. :D

 

[xleo_samusx]

Ahh that's a good idea, I have done that against computers but assumed it wouldn't work with a human. I mean it though watch Darrell, he uses bombs offensively as shield pressure among other things.

 

[Ringedge]

I have a habit of dropping bombs on/near the ledge as people (i.e. Marth) try to recover, the bomb screws them up (sometimes turning them around) and usually forces them into a panic mode where they Up-B asap afterwards, putting them on the stage for an Fsmash/Dsmash/Charged Shot. :D

You could also uptilt them after they hit the bomb, it works pretty well.

 

[Morgue]

Yeah, I've seen Darrell's stuff, it's hard to get into the habit of charging in with a bomb when they are above you, I usually throw out an Up-air.

@ Ringedge , In what situations do you do this?

 

[Ringedge]

@ Morgue Usually against Falcon, I drop a bomb above the ledge so it drops down to ledge so if they go for the ledge (are recovring low) they hit the bomb and you up-tilt them. It works against Marth too as well as most characters with recoveries that are more linear.

 

[Morgue]

I find it easier to just up-tilt Falcon, whereas it's harder to edgeguard Marth, so I find the bombs more useful in that matchup. I TRY to do that against Sheik, but it is always a laughable attempt. Not much can be done for spacies either, unfortunately.

 

[Litt]

I have had some success laying a bomb about 45 degrees above someone while they are shielding, WD'ing behind them, and F-smashing them into it. The momentum from the F-smash is cancelled and you may be able to get a follow up, not sure about the follow up.

Nair OoS covers this and makes this very dangerous to use... you have to be sure your opponent sucks to use this or really know they will stay in shield

 

[Litt]

Thanks for the comment Leo, I like throwing bombs out during neutral, I will give that a try.

You like doing that because you are uncomfortable and unsure where to use and why yet, I advice dropping significantly limited bombs in neutral

 

[Litt]

I personally think creative bomb use could push Samus up the tier list just a little bit. Watch Darrell and you will know what I mean.

I think you have a very poor idea what forces jumping up the tier list even just a notch or two...

 

[Morgue]

You like doing that because you are uncomfortable and unsure where to use and why yet, I advice dropping significantly limited bombs in neutral

Barbie, is this comment even necessary? Maybe I enjoy playing the game using competitive techniques and skills, but not necessarily just to win, I also play to have fun. Saying I like doing something because I am uncomfortable and unsure what to use and why is the one of the lamest excuses for a comment, because I know how to play Samus, and I know what to do.

I did not say I PREFER to use bombs in neutral, I simply said I LIKE to, which you should gather, is fun; even if it isn't the best option. I like changing my playstyle up, and part of doing that is to get into my friends' heads. Lay off with the insults (even if you don't mean for them to sound like it).

I think you have a very poor idea what forces jumping up the tier list even just a notch or two...

He said that was his personal opinion, and you should accept that without putting him down. Like you, I do not believe bomb use has the potential to bump Samus up in tiers, but I chose to ignore the comment instead of calling him out and being a jerk about it.

Please, for the sake of the entire smashboards forum, be nicer to everyone...

 

[Litt]

Barbie, is this comment even necessary? Maybe I enjoy playing the game using competitive techniques and skills, but not necessarily just to win, I also play to have fun. Saying I like doing something because I am uncomfortable and unsure what to use and why is the one of the lamest excuses for a comment, because I know how to play Samus, and I know what to do.

I did not say I PREFER to use bombs in neutral, I simply said I LIKE to, which you should gather, is fun; even if it isn't the best option. I like changing my playstyle up, and part of doing that is to get into my friends' heads. Lay off with the insults (even if you don't mean for them to sound like it).


He said that was his personal opinion, and you should accept that without putting him down. Like you, I do not believe bomb use has the potential to bump Samus up in tiers, but I chose to ignore the comment instead of calling him out and being a jerk about it.

Please, for the sake of the entire smashboards forum, be nicer to everyone...

no.... and i am telling him so he understands, as for you, whether or not you know samus or not is irrelevant because you were never a well known samus which means there is always a ton more for you to learn, as for liking using bombs in neutral, COOL, it still doesnt make them any more viable than they were before... (they werent't)... and advising other player to engage in poor habits because they are fun isnt the best advice for the boards, I was simplying putting it out there, its not a good habit to have and you should avoid it if you can in neutral... which is useful info for individuals browsing to not learn poor habits

 

[Mattyboy]

Are bombs ever the best choice for edge-guarding any character?

 

[BillNyeTheSamusGuy]

Samus and luigi have hecka difficulties with bombs. Luigi more than samus cuz he almost always will recover low.