Big/Tough/Slow characters. My thoughts on Bowser.

[S_B]

I don't think it'll happen simply because it would risk making him too strong in casual play.

For Bowser, I want more traps, things Bowser can confirm into either more damage or a KO. I think FB could be made to trap people in their shields and just have a bit less endlag so if Bowser catches people at just the right range, he could stop FB and do a run-up Dtilt for a shield break.

These need to be things that casual players can't benefit from, and the problem with autoguards is that they definitely will.

That said, an autoguard on Dair might still be a decent idea because the move is stupidly risky and can kill Bowser as well...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Could make walking backwards to say no to projectiles a thing.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Possibly implementing it on dair and dtilt instead of crouch alone would make it a bit more legit.

Bowser doesn't really need more damage or traps, just viable defensive options.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Want more traps? Give the shell and shell attacks autoguard and win the exchange on them as a trap.

 

[Hyrus]

Toughguy, in any iteration, is going to unfairly punish the games of many characters based on their moveset, not their speed or agility. It doesn't solve the heavyweight problem across the board, so i'd rather it be dumped.

Heavyweights are easy to hit because of their size. Their hitboxes are small compared to their bodies and their attacking limbs also increase their vulnerable area during their attacks. All characters have a "deadzone" 45 degrees upward in front of them where they are most vulnerable to air attacks because no attack quickly walls out that space. Big characters have it far worse; Bowser's face sticks out there, Ganon has no "legit" utilt.

Massive characters obscure small characters who roll inside them and produce jab hitboxes so far away that they can't just jab like a smaller character would. Fortress is readable and punishable in these cases. Heavies also don't roll as far if you're measuring from their closest damagable point. If you view the game from a top-down perspective, many character attacks swing horizontally, where the active hitboxes will contact a fat character earlier than a slim one.

Heavies also have trouble getting back on the ground. Their downward air options are slow, easily read and usually punishable on shield. Without any air mobility, it just makes one mistake hurt for way more % and it doesn't need to be that way.

===

The solution isn't some kind of revolutionary design concept. Many of the things I describe above were deliberately put into the game by a game designer ...on purpose. That's the problem.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I imagine Bowser could perform better if his Nair had a ring of intangibility since his arms and legs on average are intangible. For damn near anything. But his body or head sticks out so it ends up not even working. Just imagine Nair canceling small projectiles as you land. It would be great. Would like my fights to not be all aout cheesing the big thing with ranged pokes.

I think in the long run dumping TG and opting for intangible body parts with the exception of the main body which is damn big needs to be worked on. But it won't.

Legs are intangible on Fsmash but you can just grab Bowser out of it on just his legs. Something ain't right there.

 

[S_B]

The solution isn't some kind of revolutionary design concept. Many of the things I describe above were deliberately put into the game by a game designer ...on purpose. That's the problem.

And it can still work, really. Heavies just need to be dangerous enough on a competitive level that the danger of a heavy closing out a stock quickly is very, VERY real.

DK is a perfect example of how a change beyond the reach of casuals can balance competitively. Imagine if Bowser's jab1 > bomb was guaranteed, for example. Suddenly, Bowser doesn't have to win the neutral that many times to guarantee the stock close out, which would make him MUCH more viable.

Plus, the top tiers still need a nerf which would be THE biggest buff to heavies. Whether or not they'll get that nerf is anyone's guess, however...

 

[Dark Phazon]

I don't think this is possible for a patch, but I'd like to see a future Smash game turn most or all combo-oriented throws into weight-based throws. More and more I see the difference that it makes when Bowser is thrown compared to other characters. Imagine how much of a difference it would make if Sheik, Zero Suit, Metaknight, etc couldn't followup on throws as easily on heavyweights, or if the Dthrows os Ness, Luigi, DK's Cargo Throws, and more were made to weight based. Matchups against Mario, Captain Falcon, Diddy Kong, and Game& Watch are surprisingly manageable as Bowser simply because their combo throws are weight based and thus less effective. Mario and G&W are incapable of combo-ing us at low percents, especially with our Dair landing break. It's a fantastic compromise for making heavyweights so susceptible to grabs and followups in the first place, and finally makes weight matter for something other than KO percents.

The reason why I don't think this is possible for a patch is not just because we have no evidence of this ever happening, but because Smash 4 is such a throw combo-heavy game. If they went and made the average combo throw weight based, it would a considerable nerf to lightweights. Yes, Sheik, ZSS, Fox, and Rosalina are all lightweight and that sounds fantastic, but I'd hate to see the effect on the likes of Kirby Olimar, Mewtwo, and G&W. It would hurt their viability immensely.

Well tbh this game introduced rage and it benefits the heavies alot more than the lightweights.

I know where all the heavies stand but its kinda funny a sheik taking me up to about 180% when i am DDD hes on about 50%.

He grabs the ledge i throw the slow gordo and charge a DSmash he rolls on to escape the gordo rolls straight into my half charge DSmash and hes dead...

And DDD's down smash is not even that strong...

I have killed people at 0% with Ganon before.

Meh its a good feeling...feelS OP? Uh... yeah it kinda does but then i remember what chars are winning all the tourneys and then i just smile.

 

[Big-Cat]

Should I be looking elsewhere for a fighting game that enables the heavy characters to contend? I have rolled the thought in my head more than once maybe 'Smash' doesn’t know how to treat their heavy character’s. Isn’t E-Honda popular and viable? Maybe the folks that did street fighter did it right. Is Ziegfried and Astiroth viable? Maybe those guys did it right. Maybe Aganos from that Killer Instinct is built to compete ... who knows.

I honestly don’t know. But I'm always thinking ...

I don’t want every character to be the same, but, I’m tired of seeing the same story: Speed wins.

The general problem is that people want to either rush or camp when it comes to Smash Bros. Bowser is not quite either of these. Same goes with other heavies in other games. You have to very deliberate in your actions as big hitters historically have difficulty recovering from an offense.

I find that Bowser's meta is not explored much, along with at least 80% of the cast.

 

[S_B]

The general problem is that people want to either rush or camp when it comes to Smash Bros. Bowser is not quite either of these. Same goes with other heavies in other games. You have to very deliberate in your actions as big hitters historically have difficulty recovering from an offense.

I find that Bowser's meta is not explored much, along with at least 80% of the cast.

I agree with the general notion that heavies are different beasts this time around.

One of ZeRo's analysis videos on Dedede describes BigD's interpretation of how to play D3 as imagining a bubble around him where you don't want opponents to be but where you have range where your attacks will hit.

As for the meta, the problem is that it may be years before Bowser's meta is fully explored and even then, I don't think a fully explored meta is going to save Bowser from ZSSs/Sheiks.

That said, there is still more to learn about how to play him. I think the players who treat Bowser as a grounded character who wants to stay JUST outside of the range of his enemies until it's time to run in for a confirm have the right idea. The issue there is that there are characters who just never need to commit to anything and can perpetually wait for Bowser to leave an opening for them (if a Sheik player just decides to needle camp Bowser forever, for example...).

I also think we're better at figuring out the metagame more quickly these days as well. Players found and exploited Diddy VERY quickly. I just can't see us ever finding some magical trick to Bowser that will make him viable against the top tier. All we can do is pray that Sakurai gives Bowser something via balance patches that can reliably confirm into a kill...

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't give a **** if other characters don't need to commit. As for us figuring out the metagame quicker these days, certain characters yes, but it's still plain as day that anyone without a large player base is still struggling.