Best ways to approach on shield

[zeloft]

Typically when I'm approaching someone who's shielding I'll just laser my way to them and then go for some sort of shine pressure. Recently I've tried out lasering to them and then f-tilting diagonally down so that I can shield poke them from a safe distance so I don't get hit by Oos options. Whats the best way to do this?

 

[CP Adagio]

I'm slightly confused by your wording. When you approach them are they already shielding, or is this an example in which you read their shield?

 

[zeloft]

I'm slightly confused by your wording. When you approach them are they already shielding, or is this an example in which you read their shield?

It's approaching them while they're shielding.

 

[Jim_P]

Laser -> Grab

 

[FE_Hector]

I agree with Jim_P. Just because Falco doesn't really have guaranteed followups off of his throws, they can still be used for gaining positional pressure. On top of that, establishing that you're not afraid to use grab will make them more wary of shielding, which means one of two things. One: you get more clean openings cuz they don't wanna press L/R. Two: They start spotdodging or rolling to avoid the grab. In this case, you simply begin reading the spotdodge or roll and get openings off of that instead.

 

[CP Adagio]

Typically when I'm approaching someone who's shielding I'll just laser my way to them and then go for some sort of shine pressure. Recently I've tried out lasering to them and then f-tilting diagonally down so that I can shield poke them from a safe distance so I don't get hit by Oos options. Whats the best way to do this?

Yeah Hector is right and imo Falco's grab is pretty underrated. If you're comfortable with getting a read on their DI you can get an easy 40% against Marth with Fair and a moist combo against fast fallers. If you aren't comfortable with getting a read then you're still in a very good position. Remember, always keep your opponent above you as Falco when you can, it's a bad place for them to be.

 

[EasterBeast]

Is Laser -> grab strictly better than SFFL Nair into shinegrab? Are either options better against certain characters with different OoS options?

 

[FE_Hector]

Is Laser -> grab strictly better than SFFL Nair into shinegrab? Are either options better against certain characters with different OoS options?

I didn't look at frame data before making this post, but here's what I think. Laser grab is almost always better IF they're gonna let you laser to the point where you can laser land and immediately grab (no dash or repositioning). You've gotta be sorta precise if you wanna get a safe nair shine on shield, and Fox CAN shine OoS against shinegrab, though it doesn't make a difference if they don't expect it.

 

[EasterBeast]

I didn't look at frame data before making this post, but here's what I think. Laser grab is almost always better IF they're gonna let you laser to the point where you can laser land and immediately grab (no dash or repositioning). You've gotta be sorta precise if you wanna get a safe nair shine on shield, and Fox CAN shine OoS against shinegrab, though it doesn't make a difference if they don't expect it.

Is shine the only move fast enough to beat out shinegrab? I've been struggling a lot with the Marth matchup and when I went back and rewatched my games I noticed I had the marth in shield a lot but lacked the follow ups. Laser grab is fine but I was just wondering if it was strictly safer.

 

[FE_Hector]

Is shine the only move fast enough to beat out shinegrab? I've been struggling a lot with the Marth matchup and when I went back and rewatched my games I noticed I had the marth in shield a lot but lacked the follow ups. Laser grab is fine but I was just wondering if it was strictly safer.

On shield, laser grab is definitely strictly safer. I remember that it actually true combos Marth's shield (not sure about Fox), but shinegrab is by no means bad, especially if you start mixing in dubshines when they least expect it. Like I said, I don't remember the exact frame data for shinegrab to know what it looks like vs shield, but I do know that Samus' upB OoS beats it. Only other thing besides that and shinegrab that I can think of is Dolphin Slash OoS, but that may be too slow.

 

[Frumpis]

Unpopular opinion: Falco's shield pressure sucks

 

[FE_Hector]

Unpopular opinion: Falco's shield pressure sucks

There's nothing quite like jumping into a productive thread and making an entirely baseless and untrue claim. 10/10 Also fun fact: nobody ever forced anybody to pressure a shield.

 

[CP Adagio]

There's nothing quite like jumping into a productive thread and making an entirely baseless and untrue claim. 10/10 Also fun fact: nobody ever forced anybody to pressure a shield.

Frumpis Bruh you got f*cking destroyed

Seriously, dude, Hector is right. if you're going to say that kind of stuff on a thread that's really starting to get interesting, you'd better actually back yourself up. It's just common sense.

 

[zeloft]

Unpopular opinion: Falco's shield pressure sucks

Why does it suck???

 

[CP Adagio]

Why does it suck???

It doesn't. Other than Fox multi shines or maybe some Peach jank, It's basically the best shield pressure in the game. That guy was talking out of his ass

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Grab is pretty much always among the best approaches vs shield. If you can space an ftilt on shield, that's great, it isn't necessarily "safe" even if they won't shield grab it, and it can be used to bait things out and punish their whiff. If they do whiff. Down-tilt can do a similar job fairly well, as can uptilt, but they all have to be spaced, unless you're behind the opponent or something.

Low aerials, particularly nair (though there is a timing game you can play between ac bair and a delayed one) -> are a spacie staple, and going into a second shine or grab are generally the safest options after that. But you don't have to even do the first shine, if the first aerial was sufficiently low and/or spaced, move further from the range of OoS, or if you can't be grabbed, even shield yourself if you so desire. Aerials are basically always safer if you're moving your hurtbox out of the range of their OoS options after hit, either by drifting back, crossing up, or whatever. One of the things that's special about a move like AC bair is that drifting towards the opponent, while generally not good vs shields themselves, can make acting out of shield to hit Falco difficult. The more he moves the hitbox into range, the more likely it is to interrupt such an attempt.

Aside from just walking up and grabbing, just walking up casually and shining or directly into some of the options out of shine outlined above can work.

The best thing besides just grabbing, however, is to not throw out any attack, and be at a range where you can't be hit by any out of shield option you aren't capable of reacting to yourself. If you're close enough to make a movement to make them think you'll grab, or do any of these other options, you can punish the way they react, even if it only means by taking more stage position.

 

[zeloft]

It doesn't. Other than Fox multi shines or maybe some Peach jank, It's basically the best shield pressure in the game. That guy was talking out of his ***

Yeah, I could tell. I love falco's pressure options.

 

[krazyzyko]

Late nair > Shine > retreating dair.

 

[TheGood]

im late to the party, but heres my take: There is no safe shild pressure with falco that will lead to any garantued combos besides multishine.

Here are some viable approaches to initiate falco´s shild pressure:

1.Short hop lazer -> grab
2.Short hop lazer -> shine or dash JC shine
3.Short hop lazer -> shffl low dair or nair
4.Short hop lazer -> shffl cross up dair or nair
5.(mix up to spaced or fadeaway AC bair) AC bair fade in -> shine

1,4 and 5 are beaten by shine or shine OOS
2,3 are "safe".

In every situation but the first, you have to use shine after your first hit on shild (or hit a shine on shild).
The only safe options out of shine (on shild) is either:

1. JC Shine (aka double or multishine , but dont confuse theses, they are different)
OR
2. Fade away Shffl nair or dair (rising fade away shffl nair is the the best option if you dont expect to shild poke)

But heres the kicker, you dont get anything out of choosing option 2 if you dont shild spike and even if you do it will be hard to get any true follow up.
Problem is, multible multishines are hard to pull off and one flop on this frame perfect tech will end the pressure and gives your opponent the chance to punish you hard.
Pseudo multishines or westballz shines (shine -> atempted JC Shine -> wavedash down or into enemy) give the illusion of beeing better, but Shine OOS will beat it after the second shine.

How to solve the problem? Use shinegrab.
While shinegrab can be beaten by shilding the shine and then buffering a roll, spotdodge or using shine OOS, this cant be done on reaction. (read further for why)
So you have to predict it. But what beats buffering roll, spotdodge or shine OOS?
Doubleshine (not multishines, only doubleshine) which is in return beaten by staying in shild. (staying in shild loses to shinegrab)
This forces your enemy to read your shinegrab.
You can also use the standard shine->shffl aerail shild pressure if you think your opponent is going to read a shinegrab or fadeaway with dair or nair as they basicly drop shild when reading a shine grab.



Why cant shinegrab be reacted to when you mix it up with doubleshines or shine to fadeaway shffls aerials:

After you successfully initiated shild pressure and use your first shine on shild you have to JC the shine. No mather what you chose to do after a shine on shild, you will always JC it first before doing anything else.
Humans can not react to anything with less or equal to 16 frames of startup. After you JC´d your shine you either shine again (active on frame 1) or grab (active on frame 7-8). Therefore, even westballz on addy wont catch this.

 

[FE_Hector]

Good points above, but I think it's important to point out that the ONLY safe multishines on shield are 100% unstaled dubshines. You can't buffer roll (unless you're Puff) or use any OoS option to beat this. Afterwards, it's about intimidation and mixups.

 

[CP Adagio]

Good points above, but I think it's important to point out that the ONLY safe multishines on shield are 100% unstaled dubshines. You can't buffer roll (unless you're Puff) or use any OoS option to beat this. Afterwards, it's about intimidation and mixups.

I thought that the only safe shield pressure in the game was fast Fox multi shines? I could be wrong but that's what I thought was the case

 

[FE_Hector]

I thought that the only safe shield pressure in the game was fast Fox multi shines? I could be wrong but that's what I thought was the case

Well, they're the only realistically safe shield pressure. Unless you're puff with a frame 2 roll instead of frame 4, then 100% unstaled frame perfect Falco dubshine is entirely safe. It's a pretty theoretical situation, though, which is why it's never spoken about.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Late nair > Shine > retreating dair.

Wavedash OoS shine. Possible Shine OoS before dair's hitbox is out. With multiple SDI inputs Marth still grabs. If shine is stale or the dair isn't done the first airborne frame Marth may grab dair's startup (or win because grabs > non-grabs). This is still generally very good, however, and punishing with these is fairly strict and requires awareness of Falco's spacing.

Here are some viable approaches to initiate falco´s shild pressure:

1.Short hop lazer -> grab
2.Short hop lazer -> shine or dash JC shine
3.Short hop lazer -> shffl low dair or nair
4.Short hop lazer -> shffl cross up dair or nair
5.(mix up to spaced or fadeaway AC bair) AC bair fade in -> shine

1,4 and 5 are beaten by shine or shine OOS
2,3 are "safe".

It's good that "safe" is in quotes because they can hit you before or as you reach them with the laser if you're close enough for laser->shine to work, and they can move out of the way or put out a hitbox of their own before a low aerial would get to them.

In every situation but the first, you have to use shine after your first hit on shild (or hit a shine on shild).

You can also move out of the way, and if the opponent's grab doesn't reach you, shield comes out just as fast as shine.
As people are getting better at acting out of shield, the list of anything being "safe" is getting smaller and smaller. But some things are more safe than others still.