Best set for Mii Gunner. Evo related. Please Vote.

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Miis are going through so much drama right now. even for our final cry to legalize them freely, people are still against it. Evo made miis 1111, so we got screwed badly. esam said he will push our movement and get others to help us, but on one condition. we must all vote on one new standard(default). meaning brawler, gunner, and sword will be stuck to one set that we all vote on as the best set for Mii of each type. This will cause some drama, but having a viable standard that we choose is way better than 1111 non sense anyways. This will be tough, but lets be very mature about it. inmo voted best set >> being stuck with 1111 forevr anyday. please be mature about this. Ill give it a few days or even a week.

Sans winning set- 3312
my Gunner set(which I used and helped me make top 32 at Evo 2015) - 3312
chibos winning se (hes taken down some great players with his) - 1312

 

[AEMehr]

This is basically destroying the whole unique draw of the characters. I respect ESAM's offer to help support Mii Fighters, but he still thinks people are begging for sizes when I have seen practically no such thing from anybody the plays these characters in tournaments aside from you Twerk.

There is also no way everyone is going to be happy with whatever we end up with. Do you even know how hard this will be for Swordfighter players? It's kinda already difficult enough for Gunners.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

This is basically destroying the whole unique draw of the characters. I respect ESAM's offer to help support Mii Fighters, but he still thinks people are begging for sizes when I have seen practically no such thing from anybody the plays these characters in tournaments aside from you Twerk.

There is also no way everyone is going to be happy with whatever we end up with. Do you even know how hard this will be for Swordfighter players? It's kinda already difficult enough for Gunners.

I talked to esam. hes aware of the 50/50 Guest size being the default size. His only concern and many others is their ability to swap moves. i would love us to keep that, but that isnt possible right now. d1 and bear are staying with 1111 and would only listen to esam and oher top players. esam said he will help greatly and get others to support the cause. i hate doing this, but id rather us vote for one set we pick, than be stuck with 1111 forever. this is our only chance to do something.

3312 and 1312 are easily the best sets. i will be content with whichever one is choosen.

 

[GS3K]

I guess I'll cast my vote for 3312. It's not my ideal preference to be limited to one set, but it's the next best thing.

 

[Egg.]

Anyone have thoughts on Cannon Uppercut vs Lunar Launch? I personally prefer the uppercut for its kill potential, plus it's kind of neat that it "combos" out of footstool, but I can also see how Lunar Launch might be preferred just due to how little recovery that the uppercut gives you.

 

[Ridel]

LL is better imo. I switched between both often and I found that LL just serves a better purpose. Main issue with RU is that getting both hits to connect is a chore. Sometimes only this first hit will connect and do nothing or they both will connect and it seems to make the move more situational than it's counter part.

 

[Ridel]

This is basically destroying the whole unique draw of the characters. I respect ESAM's offer to help support Mii Fighters, but he still thinks people are begging for sizes when I have seen practically no such thing from anybody the plays these characters in tournaments aside from you Twerk.

There is also no way everyone is going to be happy with whatever we end up with. Do you even know how hard this will be for Swordfighter players? It's kinda already difficult enough for Gunners.

Baby steps. I feel like we just have to start somewhere and work our way up rather then shoving our way to the top because people are going to have a bad taste toward us. I think if EVO would run one set of Mii's at the tournament that would be a good start.

 

[SR-71]

Not sure what to say. After practicing and playing thousands of matches using 1111, now I love it, especially Charge Shot, Flame Pillar and Echo Reflector. No one understands the utility of these moves, except a few people like KV Flama who has taken Gunner far in tournament. Fair combos reliably into Charge Shot (!!!), and Reflector is a frame 3 combo breaker which can be used to turnaround gundash for recovery, among other uses (not just reflecting). Flame pillar is godlike at edgeguarding and in the neutral, even protecting the ledge during your recovery. I see only ONE moveset which has these moves, particularly Charge Shot and Reflector, the 2 best Gunner tools imo. It has one vote (me). The moveset you guys are going to pick is spammy and uninspired to my thinking and I know thats my opinion and you can do neat wavebounce tricks and a combo with grenades, but I love how some players have really explored 1111 Gunner on a serious level, on Anther's and in tournament. I'd rather use 1111 Gunner than whatever may come out of this thread. It sucks that you guys may be one of the hindrances to the struggling Gunner meta by trying to pick a unified moveset, forcing people who've also been developing Gunner to completely drop their moveset and adopt yours. We should be pushing for total legalization of all moves, or at least more than a single set. Otherwise I hate to say it, but 1111 is preferable to whatever you'll pick. I don't care about ESAM's opinion on Miis. Please don't shut down 11X1 Gunner at Evo and other tournaments by forcing the bomb-drop-and-pray movesets.. They are fine for some players, but not all. I'm sure this will be disregarded but I had to say something.

 

[TM 023]

Tbh, the 1111 set for mii gunner is pretty good for me. I'd like to change only her size. With min size, she can double fair from a full hop and fair get autocanceled from a short hop. She has the best 1111 from all mii fighters imo. If I use customs with her, it would be 1112.

 

[AEMehr]

This is why I think this entire thing is kinda nonsense. I understand "baby steps" and whatnot, but we're more than a year into this game's lifespan and we've attempted this before. It will not stick like the past attempts.

Not a big fan of being negative, but that's honestly my realistic viewpoint.

I do not like 1111 being the only way to play, despite liking 1111. But if we change the specials (because again not everyone will be happy with whatever the end result is), we make it worse for the people who play the specials that don't end up winning.

TL:DR
This is still a bad plan and it moves us backwards instead of forwards imo.

 

[TM 023]

This is why I think this entire thing is kinda nonsense. I understand "baby steps" and whatnot, but we're more than a year into this game's lifespan and we've attempted this before. It will not stick like the past attempts.

Not a big fan of being negative, but that's honestly my realistic viewpoint.

I do not like 1111 being the only way to play, despite liking 1111. But if we change the specials (because again not everyone will be happy with whatever the end result is), we make it worse for the people who play the specials that don't end up winning.

TL:DR
This is still a bad plan and it moves us backwards instead of forwards imo.

I know that feel bro. Miis were made to be customizable characters, and watching them trying to take this feature is pretty sad.

 

[SR-71]

Yeah and it's even worse when TOs keep changing the legal moveset, because many people (including me) have been practicing and developing the 1111 moveset (which is really good) and suddenly the only legal moveset is 3312? That would be a sad thing. Keep it 1111 or legalize more, but don't suddenly make 1111 illegal. Another frustrating thing I just noticed: Wii Twerk Trainer, who made this thread saying 1111 sucks and needs to change, also made a thread in this forum about 7 months ago which said 1111 is a great moveset for Gunner. Did you change your mind? Maybe other Mii fighters want 1111 to change, but Gunner is a special case where default size 1111 should stay legal at least.

 

[marteen_]

**** man, looks like it really came down to this.

I personally like 1122, but looks like I'm going to have to learn 3312 now. :/

 

[Djmarcus44]

Not sure what to say. After practicing and playing thousands of matches using 1111, now I love it, especially Charge Shot, Flame Pillar and Echo Reflector. No one understands the utility of these moves, except a few people like KV Flama who has taken Gunner far in tournament. Fair combos reliably into Charge Shot (!!!), and Reflector is a frame 3 combo breaker which can be used to turnaround gundash for recovery, among other uses (not just reflecting). Flame pillar is godlike at edgeguarding and in the neutral, even protecting the ledge during your recovery. I see only ONE moveset which has these moves, particularly Charge Shot and Reflector, the 2 best Gunner tools imo. It has one vote (me). The moveset you guys are going to pick is spammy and uninspired to my thinking and I know thats my opinion and you can do neat wavebounce tricks and a combo with grenades, but I love how some players have really explored 1111 Gunner on a serious level, on Anther's and in tournament. I'd rather use 1111 Gunner than whatever may come out of this thread. It sucks that you guys may be one of the hindrances to the struggling Gunner meta by trying to pick a unified moveset, forcing people who've also been developing Gunner to completely drop their moveset and adopt yours. We should be pushing for total legalization of all moves, or at least more than a single set. Otherwise I hate to say it, but 1111 is preferable to whatever you'll pick. I don't care about ESAM's opinion on Miis. Please don't shut down 11X1 Gunner at Evo and other tournaments by forcing the bomb-drop-and-pray movesets.. They are fine for some players, but not all. I'm sure this will be disregarded but I had to say something.

While I am also hoping that 1111 gunner stays legal, I still think that 3312 is a better moveset for gunner. It is better for approaching most opponents due to the increased mobility (grenades can be wavebounced and bombs can be shuffled) and pressure (missiles are good for following the opponent while Gunner can still move around and attack). Gunner also gets more consistent combos with 3312 since grenade, missile, and bomb drop can start combos. The safety of landing with bomb drop is also more reliable than the combo breaking of reflector since reflector has low priority, and it doesn't have a good range or a long lasting hitbox (these issues make reflector less useful for breaking combos than other combo breakers).

 

[SR-71]

Are you talking about 3312 Gunner with default size or small size?

 

[Djmarcus44]

Are you talking about 3312 Gunner with default size or small size?

I am talking about both sizes. While Gunner isn't as mobile in the default size, Gunner still has good aerial mobility (guest size gunner has top 25 airspeed and top 20 air acceleration) to drop grenades, missiles, and bombs on opponents.

 

[SR-71]

I disagree, at least at default size (because I have little experience playing small size). I think default-size Gunner is more suited to a ground-based shorthop-fair style, or fullhop nair/bair into fair, with mixups using Charge Shot and whatever Side-B you choose. It seems like he's too slow to follow-up on a bomb or grenade hit, he's too big and slow to effectively lay bombs/grenades from a safe height, and the Charge Shot gives you a pressuring tool which you can use from ground-level at any distance (especially in combination with Fair). Charge shot also confirms out of Fair, and that's too valuable to trade away. The optimal style isn't the same at mid-size, in my opinion. If you have any good videos of a 3312 default-size gunner, I'd really like to see it though.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I disagree, at least at default size (because I have little experience playing small size). I think default-size Gunner is more suited to a ground-based shorthop-fair style, or fullhop nair/bair into fair, with mixups using Charge Shot and whatever Side-B you choose. It seems like he's too slow to follow-up on a bomb or grenade hit, he's too big and slow to effectively lay bombs/grenades from a safe height, and the Charge Shot gives you a pressuring tool which you can use from ground-level at any distance (especially in combination with Fair). Charge shot also confirms out of Fair, and that's too valuable to trade away. The optimal style isn't the same at mid-size, in my opinion. If you have any good videos of a 3312 default-size gunner, I'd really like to see it though.

While I personally don't have any videos of default size 3312 gunner, Wii Twerk Trainer has plenty of tournament experience with 3312 gunner. He could probably elaborate further on what I am saying.

3312 is actually better for combos (the evidence for this is in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner gets true combos from grenade because the hitboxes last so long that Gunner is able to attack an opponent while they are still getting hit by grenade. Also Fair to charge blast is not guaranteed at killing percents.

3312 gunner is also better at approaching than 1111 since grenade is also a great approach option from a shorthop. Missile is better in the neutral for approaching than flame pillar since it has more range than flame pillar and it can follow the opponent. As I was saying before, the combination of wavebouncing with grenade and bomb shuffling to land with a bomb underneath Gunner makes it very safe to full hop with gunner (It is much safer to full hop approach with 3312 gunner than 1111 gunner. Gunner's size and speed are not problems since Gunner is neither big nor slow, and the bombs easily ensure a safe landing against most of the cast). Instead of mixing in charge blast and side b, you can use grenade and missile as primary approaching options in some matchups where it is harder to approach with Fair. While charge blast is good for putting pressure on the opponent, grenades, missiles and bombs are better for pressuring opponents (Missiles have just as much range, and they can follow the opponent. All of these projectiles are safe on shield, and grenades and missiles allow gunner to hit shields with another move before they can drop the shield).

Gunner is much faster in the air than on the ground because of Gunner's movement techniques such as gundashing (it is the speed of a falcon kick, and it has no landing lag) and wavebouncing (it allows gunner to move quickly while changing directions in the air). Gunner's fastest speed on the ground is in his/her foxtrot of 1.6 which is average speed for a character.

While 1111 gunner is better for a defensive style, 3312 gunner is better for a safer offensive style. I know that 1111 gunner is better for some matchups than 3312 (Ganondorf, Palutena and Ike are examples of this), but 3312 gunner is better for more matchups (Falco, Fox, Pikachu, Sonic, and Jigglypuff are some of the main matchups that are better with 3312).

 

[SR-71]

The Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread is not evidence. a video would be evidence, but your words are mostly mistaken... grenades and missiles are not great approaching options at default size, and approaching with Fair is quite safe (if you fastfall autocancel it correctly).

 

[Djmarcus44]

The Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread is not evidence. a video would be evidence, but your words are mostly mistaken... grenades and missiles are not great approaching options at default size, and approaching with Fair is quite safe (if you fastfall autocancel it correctly).

The Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread has combos and follow ups from san, who is one of the best Gunner players in the United States. The combos and follow ups on the thread have been tested by me and the players who post their combos. The grenades and missiles are good approach options because they stay out while Gunner can approach with another attack or grab. Both 3312 gunner and 1111 gunner can use fair as an approach option (I know that Gunner's fair is a great approach option since I main 1111 gunner).

Actually, your words have inaccurate information (fair doesn't autocancel in a shorthop. kuroganehammer tests the frame data for every character, and according to his website, Gunner's fair doesn't autocancel until frame 47. It seems like it autocancels earlier because it has low landing lag. His website also has the information about airspeed and air acceleration that proves that Gunner is not too slow to drop bombs and grenades on opponents. Gunner is not very big. In fact, Gunner is small enough to get out of Peach's infinite that works on most of the cast. There is a youtube video on My Smash Corner about this infinite, and Gunner is one of the 9 characters who avoid this combo by being too short). What are my "mistaken" words? Can you please inform me of these mistakes, because it seems to me that most of your argument against 3312 is based on your opinion and your personal experience. Can you elaborate on the vague terms in your last two points? (Why do you think that guest size Gunner is too big and slow to use 3312? Why are my words mostly mistaken?). While I personally don't have any videos to prove you wrong, san. and Wii Twerk Trainer are two tournament level Gunner players with the experience to prove you wrong.

 

[SR-71]

I know San provided a lot of the numbers for combos in that thread, but I've only ever seen him use the small Gunner size. Secondly, the grenade must HIT before it can lead into a combo, and the grenades are ridiculously easy to counter if the gunner is at default size and his opponent knows the move (since grenades have zero priority). San doesn't even main Gunner, nor does Wii Twerk Trainer, so I don't think either of them would be experts. And once again, you are thinking a lot about Gunner's best moveset, but they are just your theories based on the frame data numbers, as you interpret them. You haven't provided any evidence, specifically in videos. I highly doubt 3312 is better than 1311, 1322, or even 1111.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I know San provided a lot of the numbers for combos in that thread, but I've only ever seen him use the small Gunner size. Secondly, the grenade must HIT before it can lead into a combo, and the grenades are ridiculously easy to counter if the gunner is at default size and his opponent knows the move (since grenades have zero priority). San doesn't even main Gunner, nor does Wii Twerk Trainer, so I don't think either of them would be experts. And once again, you are thinking a lot about Gunner's best moveset, but they are just your theories based on the frame data numbers, as you interpret them. You haven't provided any evidence, specifically in videos. I highly doubt 3312 is better than 1311, 1322, or even 1111.

Although they don't main Mii Gunner, San and Wii Twerk Trainer are definitely among the most knowledgeable players of 3312 gunner because they have put up significant tournament results with Gunner and they have put in time to use Gunner (Wii Twerk Trainer has gotten Mii Gunner the furthest in a major tournament when he used Gunner as a secondary to get 25th at EVO, while San has been able to go 2-2 in games against Boss with his Gunner. He has also won some of his local tournaments with Gunner). While San has contributed combos to the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread, the combos have also been tested by other players. Chibo is another notable Gunner that has contributed to the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread, and he uses guest size gunner. While I still can't get the video for you on my phone, there is a Mii Gunner user named sage that won a tournament with default size 3322 gunner as one of his characters (while I haven't been able to find a result with 3312 gunner yet, this result shows that guest size Gunner can use grenades and missiles effectively in the neutral. This also shows that Grenades are still good for spacing even with the nerf. You can type in sage mii gunner to see more of his games as Mii Gunner). While grenade has low priority, the safety on shield from the grenades still show that it is a great move in the neutral (grenades are not as easy to stop as you make them out to be since most characters can't safely throw out a hitbox to stop all grenades without getting punished). Also, two of the three most notable tournament wins for mii gunner have been from players that used missile in their movesets (Chibo and sage). While none of these players main gunner, they are still knowledgeable players that have notable tournament results with Gunner. Due to these results, their knowledge on the character isn't invalidated by the fact that they use other characters more often. While the game is too young to call anyone an expert yet, these players have still proven that they are among the most knowledgeable people on the character right now. As I said before, my conclusion that 3312 is the best moveset for gunner is backed by most of (if not all of) the best Gunner players in the United States. It is not just my theory (this poll is especially evident of this). On the other hand, your statements about the problems of 3312 gunner have been mostly theory.

 

[SR-71]

Chibo uses Charge Shot which supports my point, and his results are OK. San uses small size and did OK against Boss (after switching from his main to a Gunner matchup which Boss clearly wasn't familiar with), but lost once Boss adapted to the patterns. Wii Twerk used small size too right? Evo 2015 allowed all customs so the meta was different and wasn't that before the Grenades were nerfed? Either way it was ages ago. Neither Twerk or San main gunner or used him exclusively to get those results. Much less default size. There is a player named KV Flama who arguably got farther in tournament using 1111 default Gunner exclusively, resetting bracket in Grand Finals at a Mexican regional, and getting #68 on smashladder last season. That is the kind of proof I'm looking for, and I believe he is the best default size gunner main. If you haven't seen it already heres a vid

https://youtu.be/ProxowLRMs0

 

[Djmarcus44]

Chibo uses Charge Shot which supports my point, and his results are OK. San uses small size and did OK against, Boss but lost once Boss adapted to the patterns. Wii Twerk used small size too right? Evo 2015 allowed customs so the meta was different and wasn't that before the Grenades were nerfed? Either way it was ages ago. Neither Twerk or San main gunner or used him exclusively to get those results. Much less default size. There is a player named KV Flama who arguably got farther in tournament using 1111 default Gunner exclusively, resetting bracket in Grand Finals at a Mexican regional, and getting #68 on smashladder last season. That is the kind of proof I'm looking for, and I believe he is the best default size gunner main. If you haven't seen it already heres a vid

https://youtu.be/ProxowLRMs0

Wii Twerk Trainer uses guest size gunner in that tournament, and he uses guest size gunner in his other tournaments. Since EVO allowed players to use better movesets than usual, your argument about a different metagame only further solidifies my point. Also san has used guest size gunner before he switched to small Gunner. You can message san and Wii Twerk Trainer if you want to hear more about their tournament experience. Also Chibo has mentioned on several occasions that he thinks that Grenades are better than charge blast. You haven't mentioned the results of sage yet. We're you able to find them?

While KV Flama did very well in this tournament, he has certainly not done enough to establish himself as the best 1111 gunner. I have seen his grand finals set, and I can safely conclude that ROM is a better gunner. While getting second in a tournament is a good result, he didn't play anybody who has put up notable results on a national level. ROM on the other hand, has placed in the top ten of a tournament with great players such as Komorikiri, Ranai, 9B, and Ally, and he has beaten one of the best Marth players in the world in Pugwest in Genesis 3. ROM has also placed in the top 32 in Japanese tournaments with some of the best players in the world. I also noticed that KV Flama has a pretty weak grab game with his Gunner (He missed out on guaranteed throw combos in his Grand Finals set). While KV Flama is a good gunner player, he hasn't proven himself against internationally notable players yet (Also how many players were at that tournament anyway? I noticed that some of the best Mexican players such as Leo, Hyuga, and Serge weren't there. Also how big is the smashladder and who is on the smashladder?). I also wouldn't put him over sage either (sage beat a player that is arguably the best mii Swordfighter main in the world, in one of the biggest tournament wins for gunner. His opponent was also a notable pit and Charizard player). Since you have made incorrect statements about Gunner, and you have completely forgotten about the more established tournament scenes in your ranking of the best mii gunner mains, it seems that you are the one who isn't informed on the Mii Gunner metagame.

Now I am going back to my point. You haven't proven that 3312 doesn't work for guest size gunner, while I have given you results that have proven otherwise. While the results 3312 gunner isn't likely to outnumber the results of 1111 gunner since gunner isn't allowed to use their other movesets in most tournaments, many top players of gunner agree that 3312 gunner is the best moveset for gunner. If you insist on doubting the credentials of these players, you can talk to them personally. san. and Wii Twerk Trainer are the accounts for San and Wii Twerk Trainer. @ChiboSempai is the account of Chibo. They are considered the best gunner players in the United States.

 

[SR-71]

I've seen ROM's playstyle and am not convinced he's better than KV Flama. In fact, I was surprised people thought he was really good... He's OK but either way, both he and Flama are getting nice results with 1111. Regarding 3312, you still haven't provided any videos, just some accounts of the people you think are good, and their mediocre placings from months and patches ago. All of what you say is your opinion, nothing substantial to prove 3312 is best at default size. At this point, the only thing your words are proving is that this discussion is never going to lead anywhere. San switched from default size. Chibo and Twerk are OK but Flama and even ROM are probably better at default size, not to mention they actually MAIN gunner as far as I've seen. They have success with 1111. Please provide a video of 3312 default size if you have one, that might help convince me. Or we could just talk about specific moves, like Charge Shot vs Grenades... I actually would really like to discuss which is better between Flame Pillar and Missiles, or Reflector and Bomb Drop, too. Actual evidence-based video-supported discussion, though. Linking me to some other players' accounts in every other post you make is not an argument. And in the end, the playstyle of someone like me will always dislike the playstyle of 3xx2, even if some people guess it is better than 1xx1. After seeing this forum, and talking with many of the players here who love moves other than 3312, I hope more than ever we can push for total Miigalization instead of just one set.

 

[san.]

Not sure what's being argued about. I don't use Gunner in tournament much due to the rules of tournaments I go to, but I've definitely put in the hours, much more than most. My Gunner got much better in November/December when I was finally able to implement the mixed offensive/defensive style I desired. Was just having fun vs. Boss and tried to test going aggro.

Charge shot is a safer, weaker version of Samus' after its recent buff. You can confirm from it, but it doesn't kill very easily. To me, it was better used as a damage racking tool. With movement using fair, you can confirm from grenade easier than you are arguing.

Flame pillar acts as a nice tool to use at the ledge. The late hit can even confirm into charge shot. However, it's laggy and its utility is limited. Once you have grenade, that pretty much does the same thing.

Missile received a hefty lag reduction. It stalls a bit infront of you before accelerating. You can control space, combo, and pressure shields/dodges. It has a lot more utility.

UpB1's flame hitbox received a buff, making it capable of gimping or stage spiking well. You can use it with projectiles to supplement offstage pressure, gimps, and edgeguarding. UpB2 is a decent niche against those you don't like to edgeguard.

Bomb Drop spawns a projectile at an angle where none of the others can. It can also be B-reversed easily and you can combo off it. Reflector has low start up, stalls in the air, reflects, and you can switch directions. Gunner has so many projectiles, it depends if you feel like you have enough projectiles or you feel like the extra one will help you even more. Personally, I always pick bomb drop.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I've seen ROM's playstyle and am not convinced he's better than KV Flama. In fact, I was surprised people thought he was really good... He's OK but either way, both he and Flama are getting nice results with 1111. Regardless, you still haven't provided any videos, just some accounts of the people you think are good, and their mediocre placings from months and patches ago. All of what you say is your opinion, nothing substantial to prove 3312 is best at default size. At this point, the only thing your words are proving is that this discussion is never going to lead anywhere. San switched from default size. Chibo and Twerk are OK but Flama and even ROM are probably better at default size, not to mention they actually MAIN gunner as far as I've seen. They have success with 1111. Please provide a video of 3312 default size if you have one, that might help convince me. Or we could just talk about specific moves, like Charge Shot vs Grenades... I actually would really like to discuss which is better between Flame Pillar and Missiles, or Reflector and Bomb Drop, too. Actual evidence-based video-supported discussion, though. Linking me to some other players' accounts in every other post you make is not an argument. And in the end, the playstyle of someone like me will always dislike the playstyle of 3xx2, even if some people guess it is better than 1xx1. After seeing this forum, and talking with many of the players here who love moves other than 3312, I hope more than ever we can push for total Miigalization instead of just one set.

I have already given you instructions to get to the video evidence that I was able to find (Once again, I don't have any videos of 3312 gunner since the set is not allowed in most tournaments). Also most of these results are after the grenade nerf, so they are still important to the discussion. Although you may think that KV Flama is better than all of the other Gunners that I mentioned, the other Gunners that I mentioned have put up results in bigger tournaments with tougher competition. This website has recognized these Gunners as more notable players since they have played in bigger tournaments (I am not just making this up. These Gunners have been mentioned on the rankings section of this website while KV Flama hasn't been mentioned on this website). Since I don't have all of the tournament results of these players, I am trying to get you to talk to them to learn more about their thoughts and their tournament experiences. Giving you the accounts of these players has not been my argument at all (honestly, your argument has been based around ignoring the several times that you have been proven wrong and trying to claim that you are right because you don't want to realize that you have been proven wrong. It also features your blatant attempts to pass off your opinions and speculation as fact with a side of baseless slander. This is what I have seen in your posts, and I am not trying to insult you). Since you continue to claim that my statements are not supported by video, even though I have given you instructions to get to several videos that prove your statements wrong, I think it would be better if you took this discussion to someone else.

I still agree that the Miis should be allowed to use any moveset. While I think that 3312 is the best moveset, I hope that it doesn't become the only moveset allowed because I like using 1111 more (fighting Bowser with 3312 gunner is a matchup that is truly annoying for both sides).

san. It was a discussion about the best moveset for Mii Gunner. Since the discussion has went nowhere, I think that we have both agreed to stop.

 

[SR-71]

Although you may think that KV Flama is better than all of the other Gunners that I mentioned, the other Gunners that I mentioned have put up results in bigger tournaments with tougher competition.

Again, the players you mentioned didn't use Gunner exclusively to get that far in bracket, nor were they recent tournaments, nor did they use Default size as far as I can see. I don't care if that gets them a higher rating on this website. It's not valid evidence for the claim that 3312 is best, in my opinion.

Since you continue to claim that my statements are not supported by video, even though I have given you instructions to get to several videos that prove your statements wrong, I think it would be better if you took this discussion to someone else.

I was hoping you had a link to some tourney set between good players with a default 3312 Gunner, but apparently that's too much to ask from you. If anyone else has such a video, I would love to see it. I don't doubt its existence, I just want to see the moveset in action with default size so I can judge better for myself how good it is. I can't get the moveset to work very well myself, but my playstyle is different.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I'm not saying any particular set is the "best," I just wanted to see an example of why 3312 is best at default size. I agree with you that I hope 1111 stays legal because it seems we both prefer that setup now.