Bayo's really ruining my fun with the game atm...

[chipndip]

Now, before we chalk me up to blind whining, lemme put some context:

1) Bayo's combos do a CRAP TON of damage. Sheik is at least balanced out by the fact that she does like 5 damage a hit. Bayo can do relatively simple combos, or even default combos in the game like f-air X 3, and rack up a ton of damage quickly (Not saying Bayo is brain dead to use. I'm just saying that much of what she does racks up % rather quickly). Yea, she's not the strongest against shield + she doesn't have the easiest time finishing stocks off, so this would be relatively fine if it weren't for...

2) Her freaking counter. Any other counter in the game, regardless of how strong (even Corrin's) is balanced by the fact that their power is relative to what hit them. Ganon's Warlock Punch? You're gone. A Yoshi up tilt? You're gonna be fine. Bayo's on the other hand doesn't implement this logic, so a random jab or up tilt can literally get someone punished by 2 smash attacks in a row, freezing up options while giving Bayo free room to do nearly whatever's on her mind.

How does one deal with all her mobility AND the threat of getting sucker punched while in slow motion for the entirety of a match? This **** is annoying beyond belief, and the threat of that counter makes fighting her significantly different from fighting anyone else in the game...in a bad way.

 

[DisidisiD]

Actually Greninja's counter has the same power level no matter what activates it. Also, as you said your self, she's not very good vs shield. Other than that... Idk. She's still a new character so her strengths and weaknesses are still not fully understood so it may take some time to place her.

 

[AnchorTea]

Play smarter, not harder.

 

[Karinole]

Like, I don't wanna say get the cause that's rude and lazy. Instead, I'll just tell you that before you complain about your inability to deal with this character, try playing more against them or lab with them to see what works and what doesn't. Telling us how much you dislike her gameplay gets you nowhere.

 

[TurboLink]

Play smarter, not harder.

You can play smart for however long you want, but no one is good enough to never get hit by Witch Time.

This is ****ty advice. It would've been better if you just never replied to the thread in the first place.

 

[DashGarnett]

You can play smart for however long you want, but no one is good enough to never get hit by Witch Time.

This is ****ty advice. It would've been better if you just never replied to the thread in the first place.

Look asshole stop complaining and learn to deal with it, if bayo was broken and unstoppable she would be everywhere and everyone plays her but she's not. Obviously you just haven't learn how to play against her and exploit her rather obvious flaws don't be a pretentious jerk to others because you're too incompetent to spend the time to figure out how to play againsts her.
Have a wonderful day!

 

[pikazz]

its all about the mindgames, if Bayonetta you are facing is using WT alot, just bait it out and punish it.

if she doesnt use it, you can have a problem when it will be used by surpriced but dont make her use it or activate it

 

[TurboLink]

Look ******* stop complaining and learn to deal with it, if bayo was broken and unstoppable she would be everywhere and everyone plays her but she's not. Obviously you just haven't learn how to play against her and exploit her rather obvious flaws don't be a pretentious jerk to others because you're too incompetent to spend the time to figure out how to play againsts her.
Have a wonderful day!

I see you're not the smartest tool in the shed.

If you would learn how to open your eyes and read then you would know that no one here even said Bayonetta is OP.

 

[AnchorTea]

You can play smart for however long you want, but no one is good enough to never get hit by Witch Time.

This is ****ty advice. It would've been better if you just never replied to the thread in the first place.

So ignoring the fact you just insulted my opinion...

Witch Time is literally a counter move, whether anybody agrees or not. Counter moves are like a elephant in a field. Its easy to see and predictable of when its coming towards you. Theres is no consistent mixup with counter moves also. They either happen at a specific area/time/etc, and it just requires some mental skill to avoid.

Just learn how to deal with counters, its that simple.

 

[chipndip]

Play smarter, not harder.

Yea...and normally when I have counters to deal with I feel them out with lighter hits, trying to avoid getting myself blown up. In the case of Bayo, I can hit her while in the air, she could miss a full charged smash attack, then have time to charge ANOTHER full charged up smash. Or I can hit her with a singular jab, and because it hit her Witch Time I get a smash attack to the face. If the punishment for triggering that thing, no matter what triggers it, is a smash attack to my face, when do I do anything with confidence?

Edit: The problem isn't that it's a counter, or I would be posting about all counters. The problem is that the usual method for staying on offense, given that a character has a counter (Don't spam kill moves), doesn't even work. What else is left assuming I need to make an offensive?

 

[AnchorTea]

Yea...and normally when I have counters to deal with I feel them out with lighter hits, trying to avoid getting myself blown up. In the case of Bayo, I can hit her while in the air, she could miss a full charged smash attack, then have time to charge ANOTHER full charged up smash. Or I can hit her with a singular jab, and because it hit her Witch Time I get a smash attack to the face. If the punishment for triggering that thing, no matter what triggers it, is a smash attack to my face, when do I do anything with confidence?

Its not a good strategy to rely on weak hits to "avoid" counters, because you just got zoned out and have to start approaching again.

And like I said, counters are predictable, take advantage of that.

 

[chipndip]

Its not a good strategy to rely on weak hits to "avoid" counters, because you just got zoned out and have to start approaching again.

And like I said, counters are predictable, take advantage of that.

I'll try again after some LoL grinding and see how it goes.

 

[Kalierdarke]

Witch Time really hates multi-hits and jigglypuff's aerials, it's almost useless against both. Emphasis on almost.

 

[Pixel_]

- if you use grab more, they might be afraid of countering
- moves that stay out long (eg yoshi nair) can clash with bayos moves even while you're being countered

 

[Megamang]

Slow the game down. Bayo loves a quick hectic game, because her tools are devastating here. Between Witch Time, and 40% damage confirms, you probably won't win a crazy game. But her neutral isn't oppressive like Shiek, so you can slow the game down and try to outplay. If you read a counter, charge the smash a little more, and you'll kill her pretty early. You can play a character with kill confirms and fish for easy kill, she is shiek like in that she is pretty comboable. Play a character where you kill from up high with grabs to set it up, since Witch Time isn't as devastating high in the air.

Also, learn to SDI the combos. You'll take a lot less damage, and lesser Bayo's will continue using specials after you dodge and accrue a lot of landing lag. Note: They will often Witch Time upon landing to eliminate landing lag. Run up and shield with timing to powershield a bair, then OOS smash the resulting laggy landing/aerial with huge added landing lag/Witch Time, these all have about the same timing

 

[chipndip]

- if you use grab more, they might be afraid of countering
- moves that stay out long (eg yoshi nair) can clash with bayos moves even while you're being countered

Even her smash attacks? Cause her getting forever and a day to hit me with full charged smash moves off of simple things getting countered is my biggest problem.

 

[chipndip]

Slow the game down. Bayo loves a quick hectic game, because her tools are devastating here. Between Witch Time, and 40% damage confirms, you probably won't win a crazy game. But her neutral isn't oppressive like Shiek, so you can slow the game down and try to outplay. If you read a counter, charge the smash a little more, and you'll kill her pretty early. You can play a character with kill confirms and fish for easy kill, she is shiek like in that she is pretty comboable. Play a character where you kill from up high with grabs to set it up, since Witch Time isn't as devastating high in the air.

Also, learn to SDI the combos. You'll take a lot less damage, and lesser Bayo's will continue using specials after you dodge and accrue a lot of landing lag. Note: They will often Witch Time upon landing to eliminate landing lag. Run up and shield with timing to powershield a bair, then OOS smash the resulting laggy landing/aerial with huge added landing lag/Witch Time, these all have about the same timing

Duly noted. Didn't get to play Smash today, but I'm booting it up for another go tomorrow.

 

[Megamang]

especially smash moves actually. They have projectile priority so anything will clank them.

Be warned a skilled bayonetta will just slap you with a weak move, then continue to smash you.

 

[Ingoro]

On paper, counters are never going to hit, however in practice they do and if you're playing a BO5 set against a skilled Bayonetta, chances are that they're going to hit by at least one counter. And when they do, it looks like they have forever to slowly get into proper position and fully charge a Smash that destroys you even if you were 40% on your stock and the Bayonetta was on 170%.

This happens and while it can probably result into a great feeling for the Bayonetta player, the other side may feel very demotivated. I can imagine this happening and the next stock being taken by a Bayo combo through the roof may cause a lot of frustration for players facing her.

Personally, I don't have any trouble or frustration (yet?) when playing against bayonetta's and enjoy seeing them play in a competitive battle.

 

[Pixel_]

Even her smash attacks? Cause her getting forever and a day to hit me with full charged smash moves off of simple things getting countered is my biggest problem.

Yes, from personal experience Yoshi's nair, at least, can clash with her smash attacks. Sometimes it hits with the second one, though.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

One trick to Counters - they always lose to grabs. If Bayo is being particularly abusive of WT, bait it out, hit her with a neutral B, and wrack up the damage.

 

[Megamang]

If you have a good ranged smash, you can bait her WT by using it when she would counter, adding a little charge, and letting fly right as Bat Within wears off. The added slight charge + bayonetta's light weight means you can get kills nearly as early as she is with Witch Time.

 

[Ludwigvongamer (Mobtink)]

Lots of moves will clash with her attemped punishes out of witch time. (Not too many, but quite a few. I've noticed this from rekking scrubs on FG.) So while I do agree that she has changed the metagame quite a bit, and whether it's good or bad, I'm not quite sure, but the Bayonetta can't exactly mindlessly spam it and expect a zero to death.

(Also, try to read them with a grab whenever possible)

 

[Megamang]

Again, everything hitbox will clash them, and again, every bayo worth a **** will be tilt or jabbing you first.

Though this conversation has made me wonder about the efficacy of flutter kick, and which multi hit moves will keep you protected at a high enough rehit rate to be safe.

 

[chipndip]

If you have a good ranged smash, you can bait her WT by using it when she would counter, adding a little charge, and letting fly right as Bat Within wears off. The added slight charge + bayonetta's light weight means you can get kills nearly as early as she is with Witch Time.

Alright, so I got some matches.

Camping her and making her work to get to me worked a bit for lesser players. When they're more experienced, things start crumbling because she out-prioritizes everything I do with those huge hit-boxes of hers. Idk...it just feels like it's one thing after another with this character, which, like I said before, wouldn't be as bad if it weren't for that looming threat of Witch Time.

 

[HakuryuVision]

As someone who's been playing tons of FG daily, i have yet to fight a Bayonetta that i couldn't beat, or have very close matches. (-ones that win after a super laggy fight and leave/or me leaving excluded) I really don't know why so many people call her OP, or even hard to fight against. (and most hillarious of all: 'ruin sm4sh'. ) Reminds of the time when people said Little Mac was broken/OP/ruined sm4sh.

Without her witch-time she has extreme trouble killing. something i capitalize on since she herself isn't exactly heavy. (around the same weight as Sheik i think?) Really, at this point it's more about them being able to read you.
Also no; Corrin's counter is NOT 'balanced by far':

I think you just lack MU knowledge.

Edit: One thing i remember working rather well is charging smashes a bit longer.

 

[Megamang]

You might not have played a skilled bayonetta. Im not saying she is crazy, but definitely in the upper echelon of the cast. Ninjalink almost took a set off of Ally for god's sake.

Im glad you're finding success though, but I wouldn't suggest people don't know the MU as a reason they lose. As should be the case ,the better player will probably win.

 

[HakuryuVision]

You might not have played a skilled bayonetta. Im not saying she is crazy, but definitely in the upper echelon of the cast. Ninjalink almost took a set off of Ally for god's sake.

Im glad you're finding success though, but I wouldn't suggest people don't know the MU as a reason they lose. As should be the case ,the better player will probably win.

Actually, i did. I had an online session with a friend of mine who is maining Bayonetta since her release (and he's crazy good). Our matches where pretty close, but i never had the feeling like Bayonetta can't be beaten.

Yeah, she probably going to be high tier, but no where near 'broken' or 'overpowered'.
Also, that was exactly my point; the better player will probably win.

I didn't mention the MU klowledge as a 'reason they lose', but a reason why he might hate fighting Bayonetta/ Bayonetta ruining his fun.
Had the same problem back with fighting characters like Yoshi and Sonic.

...though, to be fair, i still hate fighting them.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, even though he isn't my worst MU, I hate when I see my opponent is Yoshi. Fframran pointed out his invincible freakin feet on that usmash and i hate him even more!

Ahem. Well, bayonetta shouldn't be having extreme trouble killing. Her specials can confirm into kills, her dair kills, her bair kills, dtilt can confirm into kills, fthrow kills, she eats the 2frame alive with nair, her juggles into uair are really strong for kills if she utilizes ABK properly combined with Divekick...

I'd say m2 is probably one of the better characters at avoiding these things, as he is great at recovery and has a solid, ranged neutral... and a kill throw is really valuable to have on bayo... But she doesn't struggle to kill, though it takes more character knowledge and mixups than M2's uthrow. That isn't an insult, just saying she may struggle to kill compared to that but she isn't bad at it by any means.

Plus witch time is still a thing, and gets her lots of her kills.

 

[Deleted member]

1) Bayo's combos do a CRAP TON of damage. Sheik is at least balanced out by the fact that she does like 5 damage a hit. Bayo can do relatively simple combos, or even default combos in the game like f-air X 3, and rack up a ton of damage quickly (Not saying Bayo is brain dead to use. I'm just saying that much of what she does racks up % rather quickly). Yea, she's not the strongest against shield + she doesn't have the easiest time finishing stocks off, so this would be relatively fine if it weren't for...

Her neutral is awful, and damage output is pretty bad aside from her combos. Shielding while she tries to start a combo is the best option, since it's just a couple of moves actually combo, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, Side-B.

2) Her freaking counter. Any other counter in the game, regardless of how strong (even Corrin's) is balanced by the fact that their power is relative to what hit them. Ganon's Warlock Punch? You're gone. A Yoshi up tilt? You're gonna be fine. Bayo's on the other hand doesn't implement this logic, so a random jab or up tilt can literally get someone punished by 2 smash attacks in a row, freezing up options while giving Bayo free room to do nearly whatever's on her mind.

Counters have the same flaw, they are readable and easy to punish. Playing defensively against Bayonetta makes her difficult to fight, since she can't WT often due to being readable and her combo starters are close-up. Her Smash attacks also clank with other attacks, so it's not the worst thing of the world. You just have to adapt to her play-style.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, I think we all got the point already.
Now, let's keep in mind we're not supposed to have individual threads on rants like that to be agreed or refuted. a board just doesn't work like that in order to stay clean.
If you have anything to add to the discussion, do so in the Social Thread.
Oh, and next time let's not be aggressive with each other please.