Meta Bayonetta Matchup Discussion

[Saki-]

Bonus Tier|MU Ratio|Bans|Discussion
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Here is our week one discussion topic~

Goal of Primary Discussion:

• Find our strengths in this matchup
• Discuss our cons in this matchup
• Choose our best stages for this matchup
• Discuss Neutral Game
• Discuss Ledge Game
• Discuss Off Stage Game
• Discuss Stock Ending
• Discuss Advantage
• Discuss Disadvantage
• Overall Tips
• Summary

 

[IndigoSSB]

I guess I'll get the ball rolling...

For starters there are several points in this match-ups that are fairly important that we should take into consideration as we move forward:
-Corrin has very few mult-hit moves, only dair and Dragon Ascent, both moves that aren't used often in neutral. It's been shown that multihit moves are good for beating out Witch Time.
-We most likely have a stronger neutral game. Although Bayo has insane combos for racking up percent, she struggles to start those combos especially against shield.
-Bayo has a very effective edgeguard game, which could threaten our mediocre recovery.
-Counter poses a thread to Bayo if her combos aren't clean, since a lot of her combos kill off the top.
-Bullet Climax beats out DFS. It's also threatening to us offstage and if we're not careful it can force us to recover low (which is a big nono against Bayo).

I think the biggest thing in our favor is our disjoints, which are some of the best in the game. Bayo seems to have a hard time against swordsmen in general, so being one of the better FE characters in itself is helpful. Corrin can wall Bayo out with nair, however we cannot throw out moves too predictably or we'll fall victim to Witch Time.

For stage counterpicking I feel like Battlefield or Dreamland might be our best stage. Corrin's combos would benefit greatly from the platforms whereas Bayo's combos would be just as effective on BF as it would on FD. Corrin is also better at pressuring opponents from under the platform.


I have to admit, in terms of experience so far I only have one tournament match and countless FG matches against Bayo under my belt. This match-up is one of the newest and unexplored match-up in the game, so just talking about strengths, weaknesses, and contingencies with eachother should be helpful.

 

[Skitrel]

Missed out dash attack up there in multihits Indigo. Though also rarely used as it's unsafe.

I agree with almost everything there. She struggles with shields and doesn't really have tools to apply high pressure to them, patient shield use opens her up to doing things that are less safe in order to open up our shield game.

Some people will undoubtedly bring up difficulty of approaching through bullet climax, but I've found that this move is actually possible to power shield through and then tank some weaker hits into an IP before she can get out of lag. It's not a safe move for her to use against Corrin on the ground, she certainly can't dance with it to bait like Sheik.

Bayo does stupid damage after getting through shield then struggles to kill where her combos stop working at higher percents.

Probably even in my opinion.

As for stages, platforms help limit her aerial approaches, sitting under a platform can effectively limit her to horizontal approachs and bullet climax. She's a character that likes playing on the downward vertical axis a lot so using platforms defensively is quite effectve. I lean towards large stages vs Bayo so her combos can't kill before they've done too much percent to continue being "true". Battlefield and Umbra. Though the longterm legality of Umbra is debateable. I can't say I've done any testing but Duck Hunt might be also have potential for messing up her vertical gameplay the same way it messes with Greninja's.

Not a fan of smashville, I've seen enough Sheik-style extensions to worry me and she can play around the moving platform without it limiting her like other stages.

Lack of experience is going to hurt this discussion a lot. It's going to be a strong candidate for people's thoughts changing strongly in just a month or two down the road.

Bayo's seem to do dangerous things frequently with their jumps, clings and other options when recovering more than any other character in the cast. This opens them up very strongly to IP at the ledge. Her range of recovery options all often involving an attack also tends to give easy counters.

 

[Zephil]

I have a lot of experience against Bayo and I believe this is 50-50.

This is one of those matchups were each char has a very specific role: if we space correctly and reduce her chances of starting combos ,we win; if she is able to start her combos consistently, she wins.

Pros
DFS beats her ground side B so if Corrin mixes up their shots, it can heavily stops her approach.
Our hitboxes rule as always, especially nair.
Dash attack works great against witch time. Its just situational but is another option we have.
Just as we have to be careful of witch time, she has to be very careful of our counter, especially near the top.
She makes damage quick but then she has difficulties getting the kill, which means rage throw kills for us.

Cons
Bullet climax beats our dfs so Bayo its better for her to play a more campy game and force us to approach.
Witch time, witch time, witch time...
She has way more gimping options than us and her recovery is much more better
Don't underestimate her combo potential. You can be winning by more than 70% and she just needs one good hit confirm to get a combo to a kill.

Tips

My main advice is always try to land away of her and never, I mean NEVER, land doing an aerial. Witch time is its strongest when it activates in situations where we are landing and she is on the ground. After you have conditioned the opponent into thinking that you will never land with an aerial, then that's when you do a landing nair or fair, just remember to be very cautious and mixup your landings.

If a player likes using a lot witch time, force her to use it when both chars are in the air. Its very hard for Bayo to confirm or do big damage if she is in an uncomfortable position.

She is a damage-racking machine. Don't get confident if you are ahead one stock, keep playing cautiously and always control space.

Stages

Platforms are great for us and helps to prevent Bayo from spamming bullet climax. The DL mixups are most effective on platforms stages like Battlefield and Dream Land anyways.

I always ban FD as it allows her to control space more with her b move.


In general the matchup at the beginning feels like is bad for us but actually is not that bad, is just that witch time is so dangerous and rewarding that we have to play extremely defensive and use much more our throws than in other matchups.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm also going to say 50-50 we got spacing and an amazing counter that make a bayo rethink there steps, while on the off hand she can destroy our recovery with dair, and of course gg if you get witch time'd.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Pros
DFS beats her ground side B so if Corrin mixes up their shots, it can heavily stops her approach.

Do you mean the Bite or the actual shot? Because Bayo's After Burner Kick slides right under it. It's probably best to use it selectively, since a punish from Bayo on a misused DFS will be way more fatal than usual.

 

[Skitrel]

Do you mean the Bite or the actual shot? Because Bayo's After Burner Kick slides right under it. It's probably best to use it selectively, since a punish from Bayo on a misused DFS will be way more fatal than usual.

Half charging the shot beats sideB, she only slides under completely uncharged.

 

[Fex13]

the most important things in this MU are avoiding witch time(dont throw out attacks mindlessly, but bait her out) and the slide kick. if we can make her whiff those, we got really good punishes on her. and otherwise, use platforms as stated above and tomahawk her a lot. against bayonetta we have to play defensively, imo. it is pretty boring to play and to watch but effective.
i get most of my kills with DFS mindgames into kill moves(DL or bair mostly) or just DL.
let her be the aggressor and capitalize on her mistakes, instead of jumping into her to attack. many of her moves give us a long enough window for hard punishes.

EDIT:
i personally think, this is in bayonetta's favor. she is the only character i fight against like this just for the fear of witch time. i change my style completely for fighting her. it is very uncomfortabe after all. we cant really be pro active. but nobody really can against bayo, except if you are very fast, like fox. 60:40 bayo.

 

[Zephil]

Do you mean the Bite or the actual shot? Because Bayo's After Burner Kick slides right under it. It's probably best to use it selectively, since a punish from Bayo on a misused DFS will be way more fatal than usual.

Forgot to answer you back. Its like Skitrel said, the half charged shot beats her side B but the small one don't.

the most important things in this MU are avoiding witch time(dont throw out attacks mindlessly, but bait her out) and the slide kick. if we can make her whiff those, we got really good punishes on her. and otherwise, use platforms as stated above and tomahawk her a lot. against bayonetta we have to play defensively, imo. it is pretty boring to play and to watch but effective.
i get most of my kills with DFS mindgames into kill moves(DL or bair mostly) or just DL.
let her be the aggressor and capitalize on her mistakes, instead of jumping into her to attack. many of her moves give us a long enough window for hard punishes.

EDIT:
i personally think, this is in bayonetta's favor. she is the only character i fight against like this just for the fear of witch time. i change my style completely for fighting her. it is very uncomfortabe after all. we cant really be pro active. but nobody really can against bayo, except if you are very fast, like fox. 60:40 bayo.

I feel its even but I agree that we have to change our play style completely.

It may be annoying to play defensive but by doing it we cause much more trouble to Bayo. She just can't enter easily to well spaced Corrin. Also Witch time stops being so scary when its used high on the air, just make sure to not activate it when landing.

 

[Ericchi]

Just wanna throw in my two cents after playing hundreds of matches with my friend that's a Bayonetta main. I've never done something like this before so please excuse my inexperience in this kind of discussion.
I think the matchup is 50-50 if not slightly in Corrin's favor for a 55-45.
Generally as Corrin I think you want to scare Bayo into thinking witch time is a bad option. On the ground, you want to do empty jumps and land with a grab. You want to do side b on the ground but not do the actual hit. Just fake it and go for the grab. You can pressure with your neutral B but you need to understand she can slide under it so please use it sparingly or cover it with the second hit (the bite). Bayo seems like a character that has a hard time dealing with people that decide to just shield and wait for her. Her combo starters can easily be shielded or even countered if you call it and you simply have much better range.
When you're both in the air you can challenge her with Nairs and Fairs as usual because you out range her pretty easily. I don't really have much else to say about this scenario other than the typical "watch out for witch time." I think Corrin can edge guard Bayo pretty easily though with tools like slightly or fully charged Neutral B and tipper Side B. You can stay on stage with an angled down Fsmash to bully Bayo's tendency to smack into the stage when she's trying to recover but I think most higher level players know how to avoid this most unfavorable situation for her. When the tables are turned and Corrin is on the other side of the edge guard situation it's a pretty safe idea to recover low to avoid being Dsmashed. Save your jump and air dodge or counter Bayo's Dair attempts. Don't forget to Side B into the side of stage when possible but be cautious because that sets up for you getting spiked pretty easily.

As for stages I think Corrin wants to go to Duck Hunt, Dream Land, and Smashville. You want to avoid low ceilings since Bayo players love to to get kills off the top of the stage. I pick these stages because they compliment your ability to grab on to things with your Side B. On Duck Hunt you can grab the sides of the stage and on Dream Land and Smashville you can grab a platform to mixup of your recovery and the platforms can help your Dthrow kill a little earlier than usual.

Sorry for the long explanation. I feel like Corrin Vs Bayonetta is more of a player match up than a character match up. You want to force the Bayo player to play your game. (I probably said a lot of wrong or obvious things sorry)

 

[MockRock]

This seems like a reasonable matchup for Corrin. Bayonetta tends to have an issue with getting walled, which Corrin is extremely good at, his moves are faster and have better reach, he has a stronger neutral game, and Bayonetta can't really punish a Dragon Lunge backwards unless she predicts it with Witch Time. The weak points in the matchup are Corrin's lack of multihit moves (although I've got a hilarious Witch Time vs Side Smash clip recorded), and his recovery, which Bayonetta can exploit very easily if we're pushed outside of autosnap range. But overall, I would guess that this won't be too bad once the meta settles. I think that Bayonetta is a better overall character, but Corrin can hold his own here.

 

[Saki-]

Will have to compile the data provided and make a tl;dr. Actual Ratio will be posted post Pound alongside a revision. Thanks to all who contributed

 

[hell-dew]

with the 1.15 patch after 3 WTs her WTs become unsafe on confirm to. something to note her punishes after missed WTs makes her insanely less scary to attack if you can bait out the WTs Zone her and use lots of grabs you can do good damage to her. also im pretty sure Fsmash charged saw blade catches after burner kicks. i dont have an active bayo/person to test the hitboxs to check the consistency but ive had it happen before for whatever random situation you can implement that in.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

Wheres the match up discussion with the characters? I can't find it.

 

[Gemba Board]

You mean this one?
http://smashboards.com/threads/corrin-matchup-thread-next-up-cloud.431776/
Yeah we're not using that for whatever reason. You're better off posting mu questions in the Q&A thread if you really want feedback.

 

[WhiteMageBD]

You mean this one?
http://smashboards.com/threads/corrin-matchup-thread-next-up-cloud.431776/
Yeah we're not using that for whatever reason. You're better off posting mu questions in the Q&A thread if you really want feedback.

I know about that link, but no one is discussing the match ups for weeks now like everyone quit or something as what you said lol.

 

[Skitrel]

The Matchup discussion thread really needs title changes and updates so that people keep up with it. People aren't participating because no official mention in the thread of moving on from Cloud has happened.

 

[IndigoSSB]

From the way it looked we were going to have separate threads for each match up discussion, like the one we're in right now, with a main thread containing all of the compiled information. However, the Cloud thread just never appeared so people started discussing in the main thread.

The OP just kind of dropped the ball after the Bayo discussion finished. If he's busy with life we could start the discussion threads on our own and he could update the main thread when we finish (which wouldn't eat up too much of his time).

If he doesn't respond I can pm him for permission to start up the threads again.

 

[Skitrel]

From the way it looked we were going to have separate threads for each match up discussion, like the one we're in right now, with a main thread containing all of the compiled information. However, the Cloud thread just never appeared so people started discussing in the main thread.

The OP just kind of dropped the ball after the Bayo discussion finished. If he's busy with life we could start the discussion threads on our own and he could update the main thread when we finish (which wouldn't eat up too much of his time).

If he doesn't respond I can pm him for permission to start up the threads again.

Nobody is going to object to anything that gets the ball rolling again. I don't think anyone cares who is running MU threads or the original as long as it all moves forwards. I doubt the original creator will be offended either.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Nobody is going to object to anything that gets the ball rolling again. I don't think anyone cares who is running MU threads or the original as long as it all moves forwards. I doubt the original creator will be offended either.

I don't think he'd be offended either, but I just want to check with him in case he has a system planned. I just want to continue the process that he's started, best case scenario he cooperates or completely picks it up again.

Seems right to ask him first anyways, I just pmed him. I'll try to get the match-ups restarted as soon as I get the green light.

 

[Saki-]

Nay not offended at all. Life just got busy but it doesn't excuse that I couldn't have put at least 10 minutes a day into it. I'm happy people want to see this through.