balance updates in SSB4

[sonus]

I was just curious on the thoughts of others if you think that SSB4 will have balance updates after release like most current games?

 

[FalKoopa]

I'm all for it.

 

[sonus]

im wondering if characters that just received an update (at least a major one) would be banned from a tourny if its so soon after a patch

 

[Orngeblu]

I was just curious on the thoughts of others if you think that SSB4 will have balance updates after release like most current games?

It's possible. If something is over-powered, it'll probably be nerfed. I look forward to this. c:

 

[Shoopdawooper]

Not only am I for balance updates, but unless everything comes completely balanced out of the box (which is highly unlikely) I think it is the only way for a fun balanced game at high levels of play. (eg, esport material)

This does however require a dedicated and knowledgeable dev team that listens to player feedback.

 

[SmashChu]

There will be balance updates. There were in Brawl.

The issue is going to be that the competitive community will not understand some of the changes. There was a reason Link was nerfed in Brawl.

 

[FlareHabanero]

There was a reason Link was nerfed in Brawl.

What would that be?

 

[SmashChu]

What would that be?

He was good in Melee. Gasp

 

[FlareHabanero]

He was good in Melee. Gasp

 

[Big-Cat]

Complaining about Link's Up B is like complaining about Blanka's **** in Street Fighter. It's a gate that weeds out the scrubs and keep those that'll actually bother to find ways to counter things.

 

[FalKoopa]

Link is underpowered in Brawl, and a bit unweildy. There is a reason I decided to use Toon Link (as a secondary) instead.

 

[Demna]

I'm not an advocate of balance updates because it may ultimately change a character from head to toe, and we need all the time to master our character.

 

[FalKoopa]

I'm not an advocate of balance updates because it may ultimately change a character from head to toe, and we need all the time to master our character.

It's very unlikely that a character will be changed that much.

As an example, Ganondorf.
Despite the clamoring for a completely revamped sword-based moveset, he remained a semi-clone in Brawl, largely because Sakurai didn't want to alienate Ganondorf mains from Melee.

 

[Demna]

As an example, Ganondorf.
Despite the clamoring for a completely revamped sword-based moveset, he remained a semi-clone in Brawl, largely because Sakurai didn't want to alienate Ganondorf mains from Melee.

What Ganondorf mains ?

 

[FalKoopa]

What Ganondorf mains ?

Lol?

Gamondorf mains = Those who play as Ganondorf.

 

[Demna]

Lol?

Gamondorf mains = Those who play as Ganondorf.

I know what it means, but there are no ganondorf mains in competitive play. People mainly play ganondorf for the enjoyment, would not very rarely choose him as main (mostly by casual gamers)

 

[SmashChu]

Link is underpowered in Brawl, and a bit unweildy. There is a reason I decided to use Toon Link (as a secondary) instead.

I thought Link was bad in Brawl, but he's pretty good. He's a great brawler who can get up close and has some nice range. So he's great in a big brawl.

You can't look at balance from a competitive perspective because you'll usually get the wrong answer.

 

[FalKoopa]

I know what it means, but there are no ganondorf mains in competitive play. People mainly play ganondorf for the enjoyment, would not very rarely choose him as main (mostly by casual gamers)

Ganondorf wasn't bad in Melee, mind you. He's around mid-tier iirc.

 

[Demna]

Ganondorf wasn't bad in Melee, mind you. He's around mid-tier iirc.

I'm aware of that in Melee, I was talking about brawl

 

[Admiral Pit]

As long as there's no major gap in the potential like with MK being first, and they nerf certain moves *glares at Snake U-tilt and MK stuff*, while improving the potential of lesser characters, things will be better in no time.

 

[Kirbunny431]

I'm aware of that in Melee, I was talking about brawl

Then...there would certainly be a couple Ganondorf fans that wouldn't want their main changed in Brawl, yes? Ignoring the fact that Ganondorf is awful in Brawl, that is.

 

[El Duderino]

He was good in Melee. Gasp

Link is combo bait in Melee. He has the perfect fall speed for all the most brutal setups in the game. Link needs subtle yet effective buffs a la Project M.

As far as Ganondorf is concerned, I find he has a very enjoyable and unique play-style. The Dorf basically stands alone in the series as being a highly maneuverable tank with an all around efficient move set (excluding his up-A tilt). Referring to Melee Ganondorf of course, Brawl took him in the opposite direction.

After Brawl he is definitely in need of a serious revamp, but I do hope his Melee play-style makes a return.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I'm all for balance patches. Don't forget Miiverse and the soon to be Miiverse tournaments and gamer created communities. If there is one thing I've noticed it's that Nintendo really looks at the Miiverse posts. Why wouldn't they? They are customers who actually paid for the system and the games.

Despite there being a wide range of gamers out there, if someone is broken, then Miiverse will be our best bet to fix em up.

 

[Banjodorf]

I'm all for balance patches. Don't forget Miiverse and the soon to be Miiverse tournaments gamer created communities. If there is one thing I've noticed it's that Nintendo really looks at thos Miiverse posts. Why wouldn't they? They are customers who actually paid for the system and the games.

Despite there being a wide range of gamers out there, if someone is broken, then Miiverse will be our best bet to fix em up.

That's an awesome point. I expect Miiverse to be a decent driving force in Smash 4's life and something very important to updates/DLC down the road.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think they should 100% patch glitches (not things like wavedashing, but things like the infinite Jigglypuff final smash, the Hyrule Temple black hole, any frame rate drops, and stuff like that). That should always be the first priority.

As for patching the game and making balance updates, sure I'm fine with them, so long as it is like BlazBlue where you can switch between balance updates and go back to past updates. I don't want to be stuck with some crap balance update that makes the game worse.

However, I will say this: for character imbalances, the developers should focus on buffing the worst characters more than nerfing the top characters.

There was a reason Link was nerfed in Brawl.

Yeah, because Game Arts is terrible at balancing games.

That's the same reason Ness and Zelda, two of the worst characters in Melee, were nerfed as well.

That is also the reason why Game Arts will never work on another Smash Bros. game again.

And don't get me started on this casual angle, because those two are terrible in casual play as well according to just about everyone, which is funny, because casual play "tiers" are hard to actually describe or figure out. The near dozen Zelda and Ness casual players I casually played with online all quit both characters because they sucked.

 

[Demna]

Then...there would certainly be a couple Ganondorf fans that wouldn't want their main changed in Brawl, yes? Ignoring the fact that Ganondorf is awful in Brawl, that is.

I know what it means, but there are no ganondorf mains in competitive play. People mainly play ganondorf for the enjoyment, would not very rarely choose him as main (mostly by casual gamers)

My previous post should have provided you with an anwser

 

[Kirbunny431]

My previous post should have provided you with an anwser

I thought...I thought you were talking about Brawl Ganondorf there.
GRAAHH I'm confused! I give up!

 

[SmashChu]

Link is combo bait in Melee. He has the perfect fall speed for all the most brutal setups in the game. Link needs subtle yet effective buffs a la Project M.

As far as Ganondorf is concerned, I find he has a very enjoyable and unique play-style. The Dorf basically stands alone in the series as being a highly maneuverable tank with an all around efficient move set (excluding his up-A tilt). Referring to Melee Ganondorf of course, Brawl took him in the opposite direction.

After Brawl he is definitely in need of a serious revamp, but I do hope his Melee play-style makes a return.

The tier list and competitive Smash are not a reflection of how good or bad a character is. The game is not balanced around 1v1 no items, final destination.

Link was, and still is, very strong is a large Brawl. His up B was very effective both on the ground and in the air. He also had a high air speed which was changed in Brawl.
Some changes will reflect the tier list (like Fox's nerf), but you can't look at the tier list as the be all for how good a character is. Competitive Smash is a subset of Smash itself, but not Smash in it's entirety.

 

[Big-Cat]

Do you have any proof that the game was balanced around anything?

 

[FalKoopa]

The tier list and competitive Smash are not a reflection of how good or bad a character is. The game is not balanced around 1v1 no items, final destination.

That's how it should be. As I see it, presence of items and gimmicky stages only helps reduce the tier gap between characters, so if the game is balanced on a 1-on-1 basis, it will be well balanced for both casual and competitive play.

A minimum amount of balance in needed. A Ganondorf vs. Meta Knight match still tilt in favour of Meta Knight even if you are playing on Mario Bros with items set to high.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I hate how in the FGC the competitive scene rules all. I don't know about anyone else but being trapped in a 99 hit combo in Marvel vs for half a minute is just tedious (even if fun to watch the first few times.)

That said even in casual fights Meta Knight is OP and Ganondorf is too slow to hit anything.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's how it should be. As I see it, presence of items and gimmicky stages only helps reduce the tier gap between characters, so if the game is balanced on a 1-on-1 basis, it will be well balanced for both casual and competitive play.

A minimum amount of balance in needed. A Ganondorf vs. Meta Knight match still tilt in favour of Meta Knight even if you are playing on Mario Bros with items set to high.

Maybe you worded this wrong, but the presence of randomly occurring items and gimmicky stages only creates the illusion of balance. It's like trying to spray air freshener on a turd.

 

[SmashChu]

That's how it should be. As I see it, presence of items and gimmicky stages only helps reduce the tier gap between characters, so if the game is balanced on a 1-on-1 basis, it will be well balanced for both casual and competitive play.

Why balance for a style of play most people don't play and, in fact, loath? It makes no sense. Link in Melee shows there is some disjoint between the competitive community and everyone else.

 

[FalKoopa]

Why balance for a style of play most people don't play and, in fact, loath? It makes no sense. Link in Melee shows there is some disjoint between the competitive community and everyone else.

It's a ROB like scenario. People will initially hate it (though I doubt that they will hate it, as they don't care either way), but they will soon learn to appreciate it.

 

[El Duderino]

The tier list and competitive Smash are not a reflection of how good or bad a character is. The game is not balanced around 1v1 no items, final destination.

Who said anything about the tier list? Also items and stage hazards, many of which intentionally skew towards imbalance, have little to do with why people are disagreeing with you. Lets try to stay on the topic of basic character balance. 1vs1, FFA, and team battles should all absolutely be part of the developers consideration.

I don't disagree that Link is a good character at a low level play, but proper character balance covers a broader skill spectrum than just the lowest common denominator.

Link was, and still is, very strong is a large Brawl. His up B was very effective both on the ground and in the air.

Link's up-B has similarities with Ehonda's hundred hand slap. Highly spam-able at a beginner level, yet leaves you pretty vulnerable. As players naturally improve, its use becomes far more situational. Lets not forget too it's really only one aspect of the character.

 

[SmashChu]

Items and stage hazards, many of which intentionally skew towards imbalance, and even the tier list have little to do with why people are disagreeing with your statement. Lets try to stay on the topic of character balance. Also 1vs1, FFA, and team battles should all absolutely be part of the developers consideration.

I don't disagree with you that Link is a good character at a low level play, but proper character balance covers a broader skill spectrum than just the lowest common denominator.

Competitive Smash isn't high level play. Just a different style. Most people don't use the same rules or close to it. See:

Why balance for a style of play most people don't play and, in fact, loath? It makes no sense. Link in Melee shows there is some disjoint between the competitive community and everyone else.​

​

Link's up-B has similarities with Ehonda's hundred hand slap. Highly spam-able at a beginner level, yet leaves you pretty vulnerable. As players naturally improve, its use becomes far more situational. Lets not forget too it's really only one aspect of the character.

​

It's not a spammable move. It was strong because it does good dmamage and knock back in the air and it is very quick and powerful on the ground. It has nothing to do with it being spammable. ​

It's a ROB like scenario. People will initially hate it (though I doubt that they will hate it, as they don't care either way), but they will soon learn to appreciate it.

Not at all. People never liked competitive Smash. Competitive video games have a very high stigma against them which is why no one will accept it. People still hate competitive Smash years after Melee. Most people still don't play anything like competitive Smash. This is not unique to Smash but to every video game. There is no future in competitive gaming.

 

[El Duderino]

Why do you always have to make everything about competitive vs casual play? Character balance transcends this overzealous fixation you have.

I do agree with you that spamming Link's up-B is not a great idea, though I've certainly seen new players do it. The move can be a good tool for Link, but it doesn't make up for his shortcomings.

 

[Big-Cat]

And if competitive Smash isn't high level play then what is?

 

[WoapGang]

What is your definition of "high level"?

 

[El Duderino]

Why balance for a style of play most people don't play