Balance Quick characters vs Slow Characters

[The Eggplantwizard]

I feel as though quick characters or average characters are just simply better than slow characters in this game, specifically characters that can auto cancel very quickly such as Fox and Sheik. Since they can auto cancel quickly this gives them plenty of given combos whichare usually not available to slow characters and makes them more difficult to punish. Most slow characters are big and also lack projectiles, so they are easily combo'd and they tend not to have to many spacing options.

When I play Jigglypuff a character I have spent hours trying to get better at I lose but when I play Fox a character which I know only the basics of I win. I don't feel this is because of my game play style but because fast characters offer low-risk high-reward options while slow characters seem to only offer high-risk medium-reward options.

When ever I play online I usually see fast characters that dart and dodge around the screen throwing out projectile after projectile. Trying to auto cancel long attacks and actually hit your opponent is near impossible. Rolling and shields are also very hard to punish as you can't run up to your opponent and attack because of your movement speed.

/So Lonely\

 

[Minato]

If you're talking about Smash 4, it's probably best to make a thread in the Smash 4 section of Smashboards.

But if you're talking about game design in general, I suppose it's fine here too.

 

[finalark]

Speaking in general, making slow characters just as viable as fast ones is one of the eternal mysteries of game design.

There's a lot of ways you can try to balance a fast character vs. a slow character. One of the classic answers is to make the fast character extremely weak. The problem with this is that in the hands of a skilled player, having low health isn't a problem if you're so fast that you're unlikely to get hit. The inverse is making the slow character extremely powerful and beefy, but very, very slow. The problems are obvious, all of that power goes to waste if your attacks are so slow and telegraphed that your target can just move out of the way.

An interesting take I've seen on this is Soul Calibur's Astaroth. Yes, he's slow, big and powerful but his ability to interrupt and control the battle with grapples keeps him high tier. From the same series there's Talim, who falls in the "fast but weak" category but her inability to output damage compared to her peers keeps her low tier. So yes, an inverse is possible but you have to get really creative with it.

This problem extends outside of the realm of fighting games. MMORPGs have similar problems where you have classes that deal a little bit of damage rapidly and classes that deal a ton of damage slowly. Ironically, MMORPGs usually have the reverse problems compared to fighting games. For example, in Final Fantasy XIV the heavy hitting Black Mage is valued over the damage-over-time oriented Summoner. The faster but weaker class losses here, because while dealing little bits of damage rapidly has it's appeal Black Mages can kill targets in only a few hits.

Game design is hard.

 

[The Eggplantwizard]

I meant to put this in the Smash 4 section but I think a discussion on game design in general would also be helpful and interesting.

 

[Twewy]

The most horrifying thing is a big, high-health quick character. See: MvC2 Sentinel. There's a reason people shouted "TEN MORE YEARS" at his MvC3 reveal.

 

[Hong]

It's not as tricky as it needs to be when it comes to fighting games.

In truth, speed in of itself is intricate. For example, Ganondorf is a "slow" in Melee, but he's still a competitive character. Why is that?

Because his attacks are comparatively fast, and pack all the punch you'd expect of a heavyweight. It's not that his poor ground isn't a problem, but what matters is he can apply his strengths. If you compare it to another heavyweight, like Bowser, he has significantly less usable buttons in practice, and glaring issues even outside of his slow movement speed.

Zangief is a character from a more traditional fighter that also represents this, to an extent. He is slow moving, but his attacks are reasonably fast. He also has great reach, something I'll discuss later.

In truth, speed can be broken down in many ways:

• Walk speed - How fast you move while having full control of your character.
• Dash speed/distance - How fast you can move at the cost of options.
• Jump speed - How quickly you leave the ground and ascend
• Gravity - How quickly you fall
• Aerial movement speed - How quickly you can move horizontally in the air
• Tech speed - Rolls, specials and unique properties, etc. More information below.
• Overall attack speed - How quickly their attacks become active
• Overall ttack recovery - How long it takes for the attacker to be able to act after their attacks

Outside of speed, there's also mobility in general. A character can be fast as lightning, but in a game that's airborne, can they chase an opponent in the skies? Do they teleports? In a game with variable terrain, can they traverse it? Can they get past enemy defences?

There's are also other ways a character with poor speed can compensate.

• Range - How far a character can attack from their position
• Reach - Different from range; How far can you extend your character to attack (often risking yourself)
• Control - Command grabs, projectiles, etc.

Never mind armour or other unique mechanics. I won't get too far into this because it gets very specific.

Bowser in Smash 4 has speed, he has weight, and he has power, but why isn't he the best of the best? Because he's still stiff. A lot of his attacks have reach, but they extend Bowser pretty far and have brutal recovery, even on some of his tilts. He received multiple boosts in many of his parameters, but he's far from broken.

In general, what developers need to realize is speed is extremely general; characters who are "fast" in basically every sense, like Fox in Smash, are some of the few characters you can wholly summarize as fast. For instance, Captain Falcon prior to Brawl is the fastest moving character, but in truth many of his attacks are anything but fast. He's literally not much different from Ganondorf in Melee when standing still, only doesn't hit anywhere near as hard.

But Captain Falcon works in Melee, because the faster options he has like his jab to gentleman or grab, set the enemy up for his slow, hard-hitting attacks like his dair, fsmash, or of course the legendary knee. This is BEAUTIFUL game design. On the other hand, Ike in Nintendo-made Smash games has horrible design. He is a disgrace to his source material. You have some buttons to use, but let's be honest; most of his kit ends up feeling like punishment tools. He's slow in almost every way possible.

But in Project M, all of a sudden he's a fast character. Why? Well, aside from different air dodge mechanics, Ike can jump-cancel his Quick Draw. All of sudden, having immense bursts of movement (that's not tied to a high-recovery attack) completely changes the playing field. Don't get the wrong idea; Ike has statistical tweaks in that game, but JC changes everything about him. All of a sudden he's like Captain Falcon with a sword: He can move extremely quickly, but landing a hit takes some work.

I can talk about this all day across all genres.

 

[The Eggplantwizard]

Hong you brought up some amazing points. Speed is more complex than just dashing and auto canceling, most slow characters have problems outside of their speed.

I think a lot of slow characters could benefit from a more controlling play style such a Jigglypuff a slow character that I personally like. Jigglypuff can stall with many of his aerials which allows it catch people off guard and create pressure.