Balance changes are coming; will Fox be affected? Discuss!

[M@v]

If you watched the Nintendo Direct today, Nintendo stated their will be balance changes coming with the Mewtwo Update on April 15th. Will Fox be affected by this? If anything, given nintendo's previous patch, I could (sadly) see them going after double jab cancelling since Link and DDD also have it, and theirs are full locks on several characters. I don't believe any of these jab cancels are game breaking, as they do not work on everyone,hard to execute (especially DDDs) , and only a handful of characters cannot escape fox's (most can DI at certain percents or use escape moves). However, considering Nintendo has removed discovered infinites, as well as DACUS in the past patch, it would not surprise me in the slightest.

 

[SoundChow]

I think they might patch out repeated jab cancels if they see it similar to chain grabbing. Maybe they'll make it so after the first jab cancel the next jab will automatically go to the finisher. Jab canceling is important to getting kills with Link and Fox, though I don't think it was the developer's intention for us to be able to repeatedly jab cancel for loads of percent. I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to DI away from Link's and Fox's repeated jab cancels with some characters, though I know Dedede's jab cancel can be escaped with correct DI. I think that repeat jab canceling which can't be DI'd away from should be patched, though I'm not sure if the balance team will see repeat jab cancelling as a big enough problem to actually remove it.

 

[Timbers]

If anything gets removed in this game, they would probably first look at Fox's jab cancel. Their aim is to appease to casual gaming, and I very much doubt they're looking to intentionally punish players for being unaware of how to escape things that look like infinites.

I couldn't see them giving Fox anything as far as buffs are concerned. Nothing is immediately terrible about him when looking at both 1v1 and FFA. Getting a not terrible jab finisher would be great, but I doubt it stands out as a huge flaw for Fox.

Most of all I'd like patch notes, but that's wishful thinking.

 

[G-Sword]

I'm hoping for atleast a easier kill setup. He needs it since he has the most difficult kill setups and options. Even shirk has it easier. Maybe making the jabs have enough stun at high % for a kill finish or buff up one of his throws so it can kill at 150-170% and not 200%. I think he has the hardest time getting kills.

 

[EndlessRain]

Fox can combo into uair from utilt and dtilt, bair from utilt, usmash from nair and double jab, dsmsash from double jab. We have a really easy time setting up.

 

[M@v]

I'm fairly certain fox got 0 changes in the first patch (one of the only ones who was untouched), but patch notes would be, you know, the logical thing to do. Maybe I'm just spoiled by Valve where they write in their patch notes that they scratched their nose while fixing bug XYZ.

 

[G-Sword]

Fox can combo into uair from utilt and dtilt, bair from utilt, usmash from nair and double jab, dsmsash from double jab. We have a really easy time setting up.

Those are not guaranteed kills. Fox has setups but against a skilled fighter u can't get some of those. Double jab to u or dsmash depends on the character. Nair to Usmash depends on if they tech or not and how u read the tech. Even the utilt options arent easy to land.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox got no changes in the first patch other than visual effects in his moves (the cut effect was properly aligned). That's all I noticed.

I wouldn't be surprised if they remove the jab lock. It would make me cry because no more locking Diddy at 70% to ensure he doesn't go to rage. If they do remove it, they'll have to complement it some way, at least don't let it affect jab -> jab 2 -> U-smash.

 

[Legato]

His kill set-ups are fine, if he is affected it would only be from buffs to other characters. To be honest they really got Fox fine-tuned well in this one in terms of balancing.

Edit: I will be very disappointed if jab cancels are removed. They make some of Fox's MU's significantly more bearable.

 

[Timbers]

I'm hoping for atleast a easier kill setup. He needs it since he has the most difficult kill setups and options. Even shirk has it easier. Maybe making the jabs have enough stun at high % for a kill finish or buff up one of his throws so it can kill at 150-170% and not 200%. I think he has the hardest time getting kills.

Those are not guaranteed kills. Fox has setups but against a skilled fighter u can't get some of those. Double jab to u or dsmash depends on the character. Nair to Usmash depends on if they tech or not and how u read the tech. Even the utilt options arent easy to land.

Fox may not have the best kill setups of the top ~15, but compared to the whole cast...he's got it pretty easy. Guaranteed kill confirms off of jabs against a good chunk of the cast is actually pretty dumb. A spammable nair that can lead to usmash/bair confirms. 3 frame utilt confirms to uair. Unless Nintendo is looking to increase kill confirms in the whole roster (doubtful) then it'd be awkward for them to intentionally make it easier for Fox to kill confirm. He's already better at it than ~30 other characters. Characters like WFT, Pit, G&W, Pac, etc. need these sorts of buffs way more than Fox.

 

[M@v]

Fox is fine as is to me. Solid top 10 character and top 5 potential if his meta really gets rolling. My opinion of Fox as a character has been getting more and more positive; and there's only a handful of characters right now I can say without a doubt I feel are better than Fox. Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, and Sonic are the only ones I can say that 100% right now. I could potentially see arguments for Fox comparing to sonic and ZSS, but they aren't strong enough yet. Any other character, I may be to say yeah I think they are better, but it isn't an instant yes for me.

 

[EndlessRain]

I find the main problem I have with Fox is his matchups against everyone above him. That's why I say he's top 10 but not top 5, he has a tough time against RosaLuma, Sonic, and Diddy, and Sheik and ZSS aren't much fun either.
If we do lose the jab cancels, I hope we gain something. Maybe better throws, or even just a buff to one so that it sets up kill moves at high %?

 

[Skarfelt]

Fox's main noticeable weakness is a lack of a consistent KO move. Giving characters strengths over their individual weaknesses generally makes them completely broken. Fox is honestly totally fine as he is. The only matchup that I genuinely think is incredibly difficult nowadays is RosaLuma, I just play Sheik for that all day. I'm not sure I agree with Top 5 but maybe like 7th or so? I don't know.

Fox kinda feels like Melee Sheik in a way in that he absolutely ***** on a lot of the lower tier characters in the game but has a hard time against the very top like EndlessRain said. I disagree with the thoughts on the ZSS MU, though. There are a lot of matchups that Fox has to basically accept that the other character has stronger options to cancel out Fox's standard aggro, damage racking game and instead of stubbornly trying to contnue that gameplan, we have to play defensively and punish.

As for nerfs, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the jab lock go and no other changes - by that I mean we'll still be able to go from jab 2 into stuff but not just infinitely lock Lucario and stuff like that. Fox is a pretty well balanced character all in all and the jab lock is something I sincerely doubt was intentional - Nintendo seem to like patching out things that they didn't intend before they pay attention to how that affects the character's strength (see: Greninja). This patch does have the chance to move Fox up a few spaces if Rosalina, Diddy and Sheik sees nerfs. While I don't think the latter two are ridiculously annoying, they are definitely hard, y'know. Other characters being weakened is all the buff Fox needs to compensate for jab lock leaving. All that said, if they straight up remove his jab cancel, it's honestly not the end of the world but it does take out one of our KO options which is definitely annoying. If they remove jab cancel entirely, he'll still probably stay top tier with the top tier's nerfs but we'll see how other characters rise.

 

[G-Sword]

Fox may not have the best kill setups of the top ~15, but compared to the whole cast...he's got it pretty easy. Guaranteed kill confirms off of jabs against a good chunk of the cast is actually pretty dumb. A spammable nair that can lead to usmash/bair confirms. 3 frame utilt confirms to uair. Unless Nintendo is looking to increase kill confirms in the whole roster (doubtful) then it'd be awkward for them to intentionally make it easier for Fox to kill confirm. He's already better at it than ~30 other characters. Characters like WFT, Pit, G&W, Pac, etc. need these sorts of buffs way more than Fox.

Yup I agree they do. I guess fox's only real issues is when it comes to fighting the top characters. Just the only thing I truly don't like about fox is his weak throw KO game. Its just way to weak compared to everyone. That's why I think there should be easier kill options because he has the weakest throw in the game and doesn't have a easy spike game either. If they made his throw just a bit stronger than I wouldn't have a problem.

Side note just hoping for diddy's uair to get nerfed lol

 

[M@v]

I find the main problem I have with Fox is his matchups against everyone above him. That's why I say he's top 10 but not top 5, he has a tough time against RosaLuma, Sonic, and Diddy, and Sheik and ZSS aren't much fun either.
If we do lose the jab cancels, I hope we gain something. Maybe better throws, or even just a buff to one so that it sets up kill moves at high %?

I think he does fine vs Zss, and as for Sonic, I've discussed it already, he probably slightly loses, but i don't think its any worse than 45:55, 4:6 on some stages. Main issue in that MU is that sonic benefits from the legal stages way more than Fox does.

 

[EndlessRain]

I guess I just need to put some more work in then. I usually find myself juggled to hell and back by Sonic, to the point where I have stopped playing the MU and now just switch to a character with disjoints, who have any easy time stopping the dashes. ZSS just abuses our fall speed, it's far from unwinnable but it is annoying to have to constantly worry about getting grabbed and juggled. At least we have JC usmash out of Reflector on reflection of a Paralyser shot. Not much more satisfying than getting a kill out of a bit of fancy-ass advanced tech.

 

[Skarfelt]

Well, we have to constantly be scared of grabs against any character with good grabs. Difference is that ZSS whiffing a grab basically flashes up a huge warning light saying "UP SMASH ME PLEASE".

How do you JC USmash out of Reflector? Never heard of that one. I thought you couldn't cancel Shine in this game?

 

[Jasudin]

Well, we have to constantly be scared of grabs against any character with good grabs. Difference is that ZSS whiffing a grab basically flashes up a huge warning light saying "UP SMASH ME PLEASE".

How do you JC USmash out of Reflector? Never heard of that one. I thought you couldn't cancel Shine in this game?

You can instantly act out of a reflected projectile. This was in Brawl too.

 

[Skarfelt]

1.3K Fox games and I'm still learning new stuff. Thanks, will definitely try to put that to use.

 

[Legato]

@ M@v not to drive this discussion off topic, but I wanted to make sure you knew about this with sonic. You can jab to stop sonic from spinning. Kind of stupid really, but it's kind of funny to jab their spin dash and then jab lock him. Also is very frustrating for the sonic to get shut down so easily. I'd say it really moves the MU in a more even direction.

Anyways, to be honest I'd just like to see robin and falco's movement speed get buffed I love both characters dearly, but I find I am just too aggressive to play them effectively. I hope they don't even touch Fox unless they also adjust the other top characters. Fox is my homie.

 

[Jasudin]

If you watched the Nintendo Direct today, Nintendo stated their will be balance changes coming with the Mewtwo Update on April 15th. Will Fox be affected by this? If anything, given nintendo's previous patch, I could (sadly) see them going after double jab cancelling since Link and DDD also have it, and theirs are full locks on several characters. I don't believe any of these jab cancels are game breaking, as they do not work on everyone,hard to execute (especially DDDs) , and only a handful of characters cannot escape fox's (most can DI at certain percents or use escape moves). However, considering Nintendo has removed discovered infinites, as well as DACUS in the past patch, it would not surprise me in the slightest.

I would hate for them to go after jab cancel "infinites," as they would probably screw with the jabs' knockbacks and angles (or worse, the jab frames), neutering the use of jab cancel into an (kill) option; I feel that jab cancel plays a huge role in kills/combos for Link and Fox (though there are still a handful of other reliable ways).

 

[Foster J.]

Honestly, I'll give up the wobble for a decent kill throw, cause we have NO hitstun on our throws to go into any killing option.
Imagine if we got Dthrow - > Bair, or Dthrow -> Uair.

But honestly, Fox is "balanced" by the fact his only traits are good early juggling, poor neutral due to lack of laser, and weak high percentage throws.

So for them to hit the wobbles seems iffy anyway, jabjab to Usmash is not quarantined and can be DI'd, not to mention it's not like or's that actually kills.

 

[DavemanCozy]

If anything, I hope the jab locks (Link's too) get the treatment tumble locks got, where characters can escape after 3 sets or maybe a bit more.

 

[Skarfelt]

That'd be awesome and I'd be very happy with it. I think jab cancelling is really cool but the fact you can infinitely lock people across the stage is just stupid.

I feel like if they nerf characters based off Apex performance/representation, Fox could fly up in tiers. He's already insanely good so if goes fairly untouched and Rosalina, Sonic, Diddy etc. see nerfs then he'll be definitely top 5. Depends on their nerfs but tbh I feel like the nerfs to the top tiers are going to dictate the upcoming metagame far more than buffs to low tiers (if they get any) will.

 

[Foster J.]

That'd be awesome and I'd be very happy with it. I think jab cancelling is really cool but the fact you can infinitely lock people across the stage is just stupid.

I feel like if they nerf characters based off Apex performance/representation, Fox could fly up in tiers. He's already insanely good so if goes fairly untouched and Rosalina, Sonic, Diddy etc. see nerfs then he'll be definitely top 5. Depends on their nerfs but tbh I feel like the nerfs to the top tiers are going to dictate the upcoming metagame far more than buffs to low tiers (if they get any) will.

The thing is, Sakurai himself is not invested in anything across the sea, so most changes we're going to see are likely going to reflect the Japanese tierlist position of certain characters.
If he was to take a look at Apex, which isn't a that good of an example due to how the tournament unfolded itself because of the revenue change, then it's not the best data.

As far as we know, quoting him from an old interview, about how Lil Mac's online WR is low due to people expecting free wins from the character without knowing certain basics, it's more likely that a lot, A LOT, of changes are reflected by 4glory data sadly.
The only really positive outcome I see in that would be a nerf to rolling

So data collection might not be their strongest suit, and I am NOT looking forward to the lack of patch notes.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I'm sure all jab cancelling will be patched out.

As well there will be no buffs to any characters, just nerfs to the ones who are the best so that the game fits Sakurai's vision of a little plushy playpen with already rounded corners covered over in styrofoam.