Backroom Pass: The Case for Olimar

Last month, the Wii U Back Room (4BR) released their second official Super Smash Bros. for Wii U tier list; with many changes from the first version, the tier list had various controversial topics. One of them was Olimar’s placing, who had the second highest standard deviation among the votes.

For this case specific, player Robert “Myran” Herrin, top player from Florida, Olimar main, and member of the 4BR gave a little insight on the topic in the 4BR Tier List v2.0 Followup article, but you can read Myran's statement fully here:

So Olimar is a character that most players including some Olimar players consider bad. His results aren't as strong as other characters, but I think that's due to other circumstances as opposed to the characters flaws. Most top Olimar's including myself don't travel out of their states that often. For various reasons, mine being money, this means he doesn't get very strong displays often. He's not perfect, but he's top 15 in my opinion, and easily high tier. I do generally well in FL almost always landing top 8 at the big tournaments here, and have been for awhile. I know Shuton does very well in Japan even making top 3 at some of the stacked ones. There's some other good placings, but I don't know them all.

What I think really holds Olimar back in many players eyes is that they either have interactions with him that skew their perspective and make them think “oh he's not good”. (Looking at the regions with Olimar players who may not be as strong) Information regarding him that has circulated, but is only a part of his overall character. The information I'm talking about is how Pikmin clank. Yes they are considered projectiles. However, they have some interesting properties that allow them to circumvent the issue of clanking when performed right. To add to this they're some of the best projectiles in the game only really losing to ones that can't be stopped. Examples being Thoron, fully charged Water Shuriken, and R.O.B.'s Laser.

So let me break down some of the techniques and things Olimar can do to circumvent his largest issue, the clanking. There's something that I coined as a "desync smash". This happens when Olimar is moving and starts a smash after the movement. So if he's running and does an up-smash or a pivot fsmash, or if he's falling and lands with a smash (Usually D-Smash) it can trigger it. What happens is if the opponent throws out an attack it can catch the Pikmin during the start of the smash before its hitbox comes out, its hurtbox is out because it has been desynced by the smash. By the opponent throwing out an attack it locks the Pikmins position in place (This means the Pikmin will smash from where it was as opposed to where Olimar is currently), and finishes the smash. (Once a smash is started it can't be stopped or killed during the attack) Since the opponent’s attack hit the Pikmin before the smash hitbox came out the opponent is stuck there in the animation. This allows the smash to commence uninterrupted hitting them. I've punished some of the best moves in the game with this, True Shoryuken being one of them. It does sound situational, but with continued practice I'm getting better and better at making it happen. Since it's really just awareness and positioning it's a viable tool to punish attacks you cannot normally. On a smaller note you can do this technique to a similar extent without desyncing the position. Whenever a smash is being charged the Pikmin sits their with its hurtbox active, this means when spaced right it can soak hits then release hitting the opponent. It's how Olimar can punish things like Shuttle Loop, Super Jump Punch, Shoryuken, and more under the ledge when they have hitboxes. Actually if the moves trade at the right time Olimar may even be hit, but the smash will still hit them since their move hit something. This is just one of the tools Olimar has to work around his weaknesses.

Another big advantage he can gain is lagging his opponents’ hitboxes with his Pikmin. This can backfire at times, but I'd say a solid 90% of the time it's allowed me to punish moves I couldn't normally. It's also allowed me to dodge ones I shouldn't have been able to. This is an extremely important use of the Pikmin, and is again something I feel more Olimar players should put into practice.

He can pressure extremely well with the proper lineup. Having two to three purples can allow him to pressure shield better than most if not all characters in the game imo. Retreating purple B-Air is safe on shield, and when coupled with purple side-b before hand it can allow for strong pressure. His smashes are also notorious for poking shields. (I hear this complaint from players too often to ignore it) His D-Smash can break shield when up close since both Pikmin can hit shield, and with a red and purple or two purples it's not hard to take it from 100% to 0%. His nair is a great way to snub out the approaching opponents move since it's a nice long multi-hit.

His defensive options also help him reduce the issue of being juggled somewhat easily. He has whistle which has super armor frames 6-12 and very little lag allowing you to tank a hit, and then punish most of the opponent's moves. B-Reverse Pikmin Pluck allows him to switch his momentum and direction similar to what whistle did in Brawl. His up-b can be used as a third jump and immediately canceled into an aerial if need be. (It can also get out of combos and multihits often). He's hard to gimp since his recovery covers so much distance, and he can chuck purples towards you to put off some hitboxes while he recovers.

What I'm getting at is that he has strong tools to combat the opponent, and he can be the aggressor with the proper lineup. The biggest thing holding him back is how unforgiving he is to play. He requires more than just managing Pikmin, his spacings and timings have to be very precise most of the time. Unlike most characters, being off makes you just outright lose the transaction or have a Pikmin do a standard desync. (Most desyncs can be worked around with proper spacing and awareness) It's a work in progress from me and other top Olimar players. I think once we start attending more it'll make him look better to most, but for the time people are seeing what is a work in progress. He doesn't have amazing confirms like Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, or others. He has some, and they're strong, just not as over-centralizing as theirs. I'm one to look at Olimar's abilities when people can actually put his tools into proper use. I've had days where I felt I could take any character in the game no problems just by using his tools properly. So if people wanna tell me why they feel he's mid tier or worse I'd love to hear it. I don't think saying results really does it justice, because in the states where he's present he usually does well. He just doesn't get to attend nationals that often

It is a long statement by itself, but Myran did offer more to say about Olimar’s case. Among topics discussed, there was changes from Super Smash Bros. Brawl, optimizing his moves and their differences depending on the Pikmin used, among others. Let’s take a look at what he said:

From Brawl to Smash 4​

One of Olimar’s most noticeable change was the Pikmin pluck tweaking; from the odds of plucking a certain color and the speed it is plucked determined purely by the terrain to now being all set. Here is what he said about this and other changes:

“Olimar now controls 3 Pikmin as opposed to 6, and they're plucked in a set order. (Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Purple) He's slightly lighter and faster. He has a new jab and F-Tilt which helps his close quarter game allowing him to box better. Some smashes are faster, however U-Smash has more lag. Pikmin don't fly off the stage with F-Smash unless he's at the edge of the stage. A new Up-B allows him to recover from much farther, replacing his tether. Whistle grants 7 frames of super armor as opposed to 14, and cannot be wavebounced. His kill throw potential has been lessened with blue U-Throw being the only consistent kill throw. Some new things are the inclusion of what I've dubbed as desync smashes, this helps circumvent the issue of Pikmin clanking due to being projectiles. Other than that there's just some general frame data changes and damage changes that don't affect too much.”

To define what he coined as a “desync smash”, he explained the following:

“What happens is if the opponent throws out an attack it can catch the Pikmin during the start of the smash before its hitbox comes out, its hurtbox is out because it has been desynced by the smash. By the opponent throwing out an attack it locks the Pikmins position in place (This means the Pikmin will smash from where it was as opposed to where Olimar is currently), and finishes the smash”

Olimar in Brawl was ranked 3rd in the last tier list provided by the BBR (Brawl Back Room), and in the last 4BR tier list he was ranked 30th, a little bit below the middle. The transition has notably affected him, but does he really deserve to be in that spot? Is Olimar really a Mid Tier?

“Not really. In my opinion, he's top 15! I know a lot of people would think otherwise, but I'll try to explain my reasoning. He's got a few good things going for him. First off his ability to rack up damage/camp from a distance. Being able to throw Pikmin from afar is a great way to force an approach/rack up percent. With the proper lineup he can get 60% off of one D-Throw. His shield pressure can also be incredibly strong with the right lineup. 2 purples and a white can allow for shield breaks often. When a Pikmin is latched onto the opponent they do shield stun/damage per tick. (White's being the most) Mix that in with purple Side-B into a smash or B-Air and shields will break or they're getting hit. He can punish most characters’ 2 frame ledge snap when they recover from below with a yellow down smash since the hitbox extends so far under the stage. He can even grab some characters from under/off the ledge. He has a kill throw, and one of the best pivot grabs in the game allowing him to retreat with a safe kill option. Overall he can pressure the opponent well, camp when he needs to, and capitalize hard off his opponents bad situations. More often than not he's forcing them into these spots with proper Pikmin usage. The main reason you don't hear a lot about his potential or success is because he has a very high skill ceiling. On top of the regular Pikmin management that's expected you also have to be hyper aware of Olimar and the Pikmin's position so that you can use desync smashes often to beat out attacks. I think as time goes on, and players keep improving with him and his tech he will rise in results and in the opinions of others.”

Pikmin Types, Lineup, and Effectiveness​

So delving more and more deeper into the Pikmin metagame, let’s see what are his thoughts on the Pikmin pluck change.

“I think the 3 Pikmin fixed order is [better]. Having 6 Pikmin could allow for some incredibly strong pressure at times however cycling 6 Pikmin for the ideal gameplay could also be more difficult and less consistent due to the random pluck chance. 3 pikmin plucked in a set order means you can always be planning what lineup you want or need. 3 Pikmin are also easier to cycle, it makes lineups that have 2 Pikmin very effective because you can get them back to the front of the line faster. I think it just makes for an overall stronger character that really rewards the player for their skill and eliminates any randomness.”

Olimar can pluck five different types of Pikmin: Red, Yellow, Blue, White, and Purple (in that order), what are the difference between them?

“Red Pikmin have 1.2x damage and knockback on smash and aerials, but have 0.8x damage and knockback on throws. On top of this they have an immunity to fire damage allowing them to go throw attacks like PK Fire unhindered. This lets them do stronger smashes and aerials, and confirm throw combos at higher percents. Red Pikmin have 8% health.

Yellow Pikmin have 1.25x larger hitboxes, and an immunity to electric attacks. They also have the electric property causing their attacks to have more hitlag. Yellows are great for spacing out things where other colors may not reach. They have 1.0x damage for all attacks used, and have 8% health tied with red for the average health amount.

Blue Pikmin have 1.6x damage and knockback on throws making them the most consistent Pikmin to use for kill throws. They also have the 2nd highest health of all the Pikmin at 11% being right behind purple. They have standard damage on smashes and aerials.

White Pikmin have 0.8x damage and knockback on smashes and aerials while doing 1.0x for grabs. However they do double the damage on pummel being 4% up from the standard 2% and have the longest grab range. They also do 3.7% per hit from side-b as opposed to the 1.1% from red, yellow, and blue. They have the lowest health of all colors with 7%.

Purple Pikmin have 1.4x damage and knockback on smashes and aerials, while keeping a 1.0x for grabs. Their main drawback is the shortened range on smashes and grabs. This is made up by their unique hitbox for side-b which makes them a hitbox that doesn't latch on when thrown. They have the highest health with 13%.

With all these different attributes it allows for a vast amount of creativity in his gameplay. Being able to tailor your game plan to a certain Pikmin lineup is crucial and it's important to be able to make the most out of your lineup, while still filtering them into the ideal lineup. Most Olimar players don't have the same management style which is a great thing in my opinion! Variety makes it easier for us to learn more effective ways at optimizing the character.”

Now, how would Myran rank these Pikmin?

“1. Purple - unique Side-B hitbox allows midrange pressure to increase, as well as combos to begin from farther distance. Can be used to safely gimp offstage. Have strong smashes and aerials allowing kills to be gained early.

2. Blue - Their isn't really anything going for them except grab. However being able to kill so much earlier makes them one of the more valuable Pikmin to have in higher percents. They also help rack up strong damage off low percent throw combos.

3. Yellow - Due to their larger hitboxes it allows you to often hit opponents right out of their reach and start a form of offense. The range also allows Olimar's down smash to hit under the ledge quite a good amount making 2 frame ledge snaps easier to hit consistently. The added hitlag is a nice benefit too since it can open new combos.

4. White - Their main use comes from strong Side-B damage, but due to their low health they often don't get to stick for the entire duration. On the other hand since they have the longest grab of all colors it allows for you to retreat with pivot grabs safely catching most opponents where other colors may fall short. Overall they filter themselves fast, but grab usage is a key component of their play

5. Red - They do have the second strongest smashes and aerials, however I find purples to excel in those areas better almost all the time. The real use of this color is the higher percents where it allows you to connect D-Throw into U-Air or B-Air allowing stocks to be taken in the upper mid range percents. Other than the throw uses or niche fire immunity I find the other colors to do each of the jobs needed to be better.”

Olimar being a highly mix-’n’-match based character, with up to 125 different combinations and orders, what could be that “golden combination”, how good do they really blend?

“As for the best lineup, it varies, however Blue-White-Purple is a great one for racking damage (besides also being the order they pluck, and not having to throw away Pikmins to get the order), Purple-Purple-Blue is also a strong lineup for killing since the purples can force shield which blue circumvents with up throw. As for Purple-Purple-Purple, I think when played optimally it makes Olimar a top 3 character in the game. The level of pressure he can apply with 3 Purples is ridiculously high.”

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And with this, the first “Backroom Pass” concludes. We will be discussing other topics like this in future editions, but, for now, let us know what you think in the comments! Be sure to follow Myran on Twitter @MyranSSB and the 4BR @Smash4BR.

 

As someone wanting to play Olimar more effectively, this is definitely useful information. I do use certain colors against certain characters (Like Yellow, Red, and Purple against Ness) but I might have to take this into account much more often.

 

I find this to be an incomplete overview of Olimar's potential and weaknesses. Referring to pikmin as projectiles is not accurate, they behave more like Luma with what's called "item priority". But since the pikmin are not connected to Olimar's body, you can clank with them and continue to hit Olimar with the same move. Normal priority rules do not apply - A 2% jab will clank with a 14% smash attack, and a 5% aerial would beat it entirely just by being a move incapable of clanking. It's a serious issue that makes all of his aerials lose to any incoming attack. Furthermore, against any opponent with a hitbox on their recovery, Olimar is incapable of edgeguarding them with aerials. Even Little Mac has more options than targeting the 2 frame ledge snap. There's also no mention of other critical weaknesses like his lightweight floatiness that lets him die far sooner than others, his recovery that lacks a hitbox, etc. Also, Olimar does possess Dthrow combos, but not the sort that wrack up 60% damage. Maybe if your opponent suddenly goes comatose during a match, but it's unbelievably false otherwise.

Myran argues that Olimar's lack of placements is due to a lack of dedicated, good players. Welcome to Smash 4 with 50+ viable characters that also lack representation from top players. It took one national for Mewtwo to move from Olimar's current position to top 10. I would instead argue that because people don't study Olimar it gives him an advantage. As evidenced by how routinely safe players are as they recover to the ledge - like they need to worry about anything Olimar can do to them. They don't know how effective aerials with lots of active frames can be when approaching him. Or how they need to hold shield until the side B pikmin has finished passing through them. Or how sitting on a battlefield platform allows side B pikmin to fall to their deaths offstage after passing through your shield. Or how screwed he is against offstage edgeguards between his hitbox-less recovery and aerials that lose to other aerials. And probably a lot more counterplay that's yet to be discovered. Heck, Smash 4 players couldn't wrap their head around DI/SDI before Bayonetta was nerfed, I doubt they're ahead of the curve when it comes to unpopular characters like Olimar.

 

I find this to be an incomplete overview of Olimar's potential and weaknesses. Referring to pikmin as projectiles is not accurate, they behave more like Luma with what's called "item priority". But since the pikmin are not connected to Olimar's body, you can clank with them and continue to hit Olimar with the same move. Normal priority rules do not apply - A 2% jab will clank with a 14% smash attack, and a 5% aerial would beat it entirely just by being a move incapable of clanking. It's a serious issue that makes all of his aerials lose to any incoming attack. Furthermore, against any opponent with a hitbox on their recovery, Olimar is incapable of edgeguarding them with aerials. Even Little Mac has more options than targeting the 2 frame ledge snap. There's also no mention of other critical weaknesses like his lightweight floatiness that lets him die far sooner than others, his recovery that lacks a hitbox, etc. Also, Olimar does possess Dthrow combos, but not the sort that wrack up 60% damage. Maybe if your opponent suddenly goes comatose during a match, but it's unbelievably false otherwise.

Myran argues that Olimar's lack of placements is due to a lack of dedicated, good players. Welcome to Smash 4 with 50+ viable characters that also lack representation from top players. It took one national for Mewtwo to move from Olimar's current position to top 10. I would instead argue that because people don't study Olimar it gives him an advantage. As evidenced by how routinely safe players are as they recover to the ledge - like they need to worry about anything Olimar can do to them. They don't know how effective aerials with lots of active frames can be when approaching him. Or how they need to hold shield until the side B pikmin has finished passing through them. Or how sitting on a battlefield platform allows side B pikmin to fall to their deaths offstage after passing through your shield. Or how screwed he is against offstage edgeguards between his hitbox-less recovery and aerials that lose to other aerials. And probably a lot more counterplay that's yet to be discovered. Heck, Smash 4 players couldn't wrap their head around DI/SDI before Bayonetta was nerfed, I doubt they're ahead of the curve when it comes to unpopular characters like Olimar.

You're right I probably should have used a different word then projectile. However from reading your response you still seem quite ignorant to Olimar's strengths, and have a linear view of his weaknesses. His attacks may clank head on but there are pros and cons to this. His aerials can clank with grounded attacks putting the opponent in lag while he lands allowing him to punish with a smash. Desync smashes are also useful for beating out his constant clanking.

Whistle also helps him recover whether it be from being juggled or off stage. He's light but hard to catch unless you have huge sweeping hitboxes like cloud or speed like fox or sonic.

Before you come on here discussing Olimar like you know what he can and can't do I'd recommend you learn to play the character at a high level. Yes he has weaknesses, I'm not ignoring those. However you're much less qualified to talk about the characters viability when you've done nothing with him.

 

Before you come on here discussing Olimar like you know what he can and can't do I'd recommend you learn to play the character at a high level. Yes he has weaknesses, I'm not ignoring those. However you're much less qualified to talk about the characters viability when you've done nothing with him.

I don't approve of excluding people from a conversation just because they don't play your character. What if I did? There's no way for you to know. And nothing I said was incorrect, you're just upset that I said it. You can appreciate something while seeing its flaws, trust me on that.

 

I don't approve of excluding people from a conversation just because they don't play your character. What if I did? There's no way for you to know. And nothing I said was incorrect, you're just upset that I said it. You can appreciate something while seeing its flaws, trust me on that.

No.
I want you to educate yourself on the character by doing more than just chatting on online forums about it and seeing some stuff here and there. I have no reason to value the opinion of someone who won't learn about the character.

What you said was a fraction of the character which paints him In negative light. If you actually played the character and understood how he worked you'd know how he can work around certain flaws.

 

I wished they put Louie as a skin 4 him :/

 

What you said was a fraction of the character which paints him In negative light.

Remember my first sentence:

I find this to be an incomplete overview of Olimar's potential and weaknesses.

In "the case for Olimar" you need both arguments. You can't just bring up "pikmin clank" as a two word representation of a critical weakness. Most people have no idea what's wrong with Pikmin and why Olimar would rather throw them away than fight like normal. How can people that play any of the 57 other characters participate in this conversation if all they see is optimism and answers to problems they're not familiar with?

 

Remember my first sentence:


In "the case for Olimar" you need both arguments. You can't just bring up "pikmin clank" as a two word representation of a critical weakness. Most people have no idea what's wrong with Pikmin and why Olimar would rather throw them away than fight like normal. How can people that play any of the 57 other characters participate in this conversation if all they see is optimism and answers to problems they're not familiar with?

I'll say this. I was asked specific questions for this article and I answered them how I felt necessary. I could have expanded more on Olimars flaws however it doesn't change that I think he's top 15 still. To often do I see people calling him bad and listing his flaws. Rarely do I see people recognize where he can excel, past the obvious tools.

He does have issues when challenging great frame data head on, and can have a hard time recovering. However he can also wall out most characters better than most meaning he shouldn't have someone in his face pressuring him. When he recovers he can get hit and keep coming back. His up-b doesn't need a hitbox since with no Pikmin it has incredible movement allowing you to often juke your opponent. When there's stage below you can also cancel it with an aerial to land without lag.

So once again, I encourage you and anyone who thinks Olimar's flaws hold him back to actually play him and explore his options. Smash isn't so black and white. Characters have room to be developed, and Olimar is one of them currently being done so. You can disagree with me about his skill cap and compare to others all you want. However I'm certain that I know more about him then probably anybody else you'll talk to. He requires a skillset that other characters don't need. You may not see it, but it's something I can say for certain after playing him since the game launched.

I have no desire to gate people from discussion. I just don't like discussion based on poor information.

 

I kind of want one of these for every character

 

I know I'm just pointing out a flaw and that's not what you want to see here, but isn't a purple-purple-purple extremely hard to manage with the lack of range causing Olimar to be easier to space out and Olimar's recovery being heavily reduced? I'm not trying to hate here, just to learn about this character that I am intrigued about.

 

Not having a hitbox on your recovery is a pretty big deal. Regardless of how fast you can move youre still completely vulnerable and a prepared opponent need only drop off and throw out a lingering hitbox.

I think the article fairly recognized Olimar's advantages, and certainly didnt exaggerate them, but completely ignored to fairly address his weaknesses. Which is what makes this article inherently misleading.

Also keep in mind that every character has their own advantages, some are not unique to olimar, and some olimar is lacking. This is the main reason its hard to call Olimar top 15. Its really easy to look at Olimar in a vacuum and say "wow look at all this, he must be top 15" but people need to keep things in perspective. In the end, it all comes down to a character by character analysis, where MUs dictate how good a character really is. Not theory.

 

I know I'm just pointing out a flaw and that's not what you want to see here, but isn't a purple-purple-purple extremely hard to manage with the lack of range causing Olimar to be easier to space out and Olimar's recovery being heavily reduced? I'm not trying to hate here, just to learn about this character that I am intrigued about.

I'm fine with opinions and all. Just wanted there to be educated discussion. As for 3 purples you only lose range in smashes and grabs. However purple side b and aerials can apply heavy pressure and since there's no real down time of not having a purple you can keep applying it. Olimar can put out more pressure than most characters or wall out extremely well. The range doesn't really become and issue because you're moving forward while pressuring.

 

Not having a hitbox on your recovery is a pretty big deal. Regardless of how fast you can move youre still completely vulnerable and a prepared opponent need only drop off and throw out a lingering hitbox.

I think the article fairly recognized Olimar's advantages, and certainly didnt exaggerate them, but completely ignored to fairly address his weaknesses. Which is what makes this article inherently misleading.

Also keep in mind that every character has their own advantages, some are not unique to olimar, and some olimar is lacking. This is the main reason its hard to call Olimar top 15. Its really easy to look at Olimar in a vacuum and say "wow look at all this, he must be top 15" but people need to keep things in perspective. In the end, it all comes down to a character by character analysis, where MUs dictate how good a character really is. Not theory.

I tried to mention tools he has to circumvent some of his weaknesses. Like you said it's not a vacuum which is why I felt listing every little flaw wouldn't do much. Imo he only loses 6 matchups none of which are worse than 6-4. I find ways to circumvent his flaws to a decent degree. When I lose it's because I did something wrong more often then not. I don't ever really feels the characters tools hold me back. That's why I think he's top 15.

As for working through his flaws I can stress how big desyncs smashes are. They can let you punish almost every move in the game. I think they're a huge tool that's not implemented enough.

Often times people look at his weaknesses as absolutes but smash isn't that simple.

 

Id be interested to see your MU chart then because it would be very difficult to make a convincing argument about him losing only 6 MUs. Not saying i dont believe it, but there are 58 chars in this game and i feel like more than 6 have the tools to deal with Olimar's kit.

 

Funny that somebody made a whole article about this after I reposted the same initial comment in the Olimar Forum lol.

 

I'm fine with opinions and all. Just wanted there to be educated discussion. As for 3 purples you only lose range in smashes and grabs. However purple side b and aerials can apply heavy pressure and since there's no real down time of not having a purple you can keep applying it. Olimar can put out more pressure than most characters or wall out extremely well. The range doesn't really become and issue because you're moving forward while pressuring.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

 

Id be interested to see your MU chart then because it would be very difficult to make a convincing argument about him losing only 6 MUs. Not saying i dont believe it, but there are 58 chars in this game and i feel like more than 6 have the tools to deal with Olimar's kit.

On my phone so I don't have it atm. It's on my twitter somewhere. I wouldn't expect you to believe it. Most Olimars don't. I base it off what I've seen while playing and theoretical plays. It's what Olimar strives to be not necessarily what he is now.

I'm not the type of player to lose to someone or struggle a little bit and call it a bad matchup.

 

I understand where youre coming from, but it seems like youre basing a MU chart on potential rather than the current meta, which frankly defeats the whole purpose of a MU chart to begin with. Thats why people update their charts over time.

Edit: its also why people date their charts, and also why MU charts become outdated so quickly.

Its pretty easy to judge your own character's potential but you cant possibly know what kind of potential every other character has. Youre effectively comparing a "best case" Olimar to the current version of every other character. Which is basically apples and oranges.

While we're on this topic, I'd just like to point out that none of the characters in our current meta are "optimized". Far from it. If you could go 10 years into the future and bring a high level jigglypuff back, they could be unstoppable for all we know. This game is still young, very young, and nobody is qualified to say what the future meta will hold. Thats why i can say i could see Olimar being top 15, but the same could be said about every character in my eyes.

 

I understand where youre coming from, but it seems like youre basing a MU chart on potential rather than the current meta, which frankly defeats the whole purpose of a MU chart to begin with. Thats why people update their charts over time.

Edit: its also why people date their charts, and also why MU charts become outdated so quickly.

Its pretty easy to judge your own character's potential but you cant possibly know what kind of potential every other character has. Youre effectively comparing a "best case" Olimar to the current version of every other character. Which is basically apples and oranges.

I can understand that. It isn't solely based of a theoretical standpoint. I should've clarified it's more like if I'm struggling vs a matchup I probably don't lose it but I need to use Olimar's tools better. Hope that clarified some.

 

As a guy that plays Olimar as a counter pick, I can confirm that most people don't know the matchup well. Most of them play way to safe against Olimar and they don't often effectively capitalize on his weaknesses enough and/or they are unaware of his tools. I feel like his obscurity is both a bane and a boon as his meta isn't optimized well at the highest level, but on the flip side most people don't know the matchup at all. His situation as a character is interesting to say the least

 

As a diddy main ive had to thoroughly learn the Olimar matchup because it can be tough. Its all about maintaining pressure and less about banana play, i dont think its particularly difficult. 45:55 or 50:50. I can definitely feel for all the people who dont know the MU though

 

Everyone is saying their character is Top 15. Like literally, I've heard this from so many different character mains. Wario is top 15, PAC-MAN is top 15, Link is top 15, Robin is top 15, R.O.B. is top 15, Olimar is top 15 and so on. If so many characters are top 15, then who truly are?

 

Everyone is saying their character is Top 15. Like literally, I've heard this from so many different character mains. Wario is top 15, PAC-MAN is top 15, Link is top 15, Robin is top 15, R.O.B. is top 15, Olimar is top 15 and so on. If so many characters are top 15, then who truly are?

That was mostly when customs were still around and we just had a bunch of goodish characters with no idea how to place them.
But also remember DLC characters and buffed characters give a few extra slots for top 15, Bayo, Mewtwo, Cloud and maybe Corrin and Ryu not existing could give, say, R.O.B that edge to touch top 15 for example)
I don't think any of those you mentioned are top 15, just look at the roster, you can easily name fourteen characters considered better.

, ten undisputed top tiers, leaving only five slots for other characters to be top 15 (Btw, it's alphabetical order, so it's not ordered 1-10)

The only ones I can see being top 15 in the 20XX future are Robin and his consistent punishes and Olimar because he's such a wildcard anyway.

But not everyone is muh low tier either, some could be genuinely mid tier, like Link, Robin and Olimar again.

Who told you PAC was Top 15 after customs anyway?
You can't just quote an opinion from three patches ago and roll with it.
And even then it is a pretty deep character so you can't blame one seeing potential in an untapped character in a then unknown meta.

Same with R.O.B. He was genuinely good with the kill throw and the then (deemed) consistent kill combo.

 

I'm sorry but I think that olimar is slightly better than bowser jr. (who I consider hands down one of the worst characters in the game, You can legit jab bowser jr. once while he's recovering, and he can't grab the ledge for like 20 frames afterwards, and just dies.). Captain Falcon holding down the a button invalidates his smash attacks and side-b, and most of his grounded approach options.

 

I'm sorry but I think that olimar is slightly better than bowser jr. (who I consider hands down one of the worst characters in the game, You can legit jab bowser jr. once while he's recovering, and he can't grab the ledge for like 20 frames afterwards, and just dies.). Captain Falcon holding down the a button invalidates his smash attacks and side-b, and most of his grounded approach options.

If he holds jab just side b and hit his head. It's not even a bad matchup for Olimar.

 

Id be interested to see your MU chart

https://twitter.com/myranssb/status/767868291905941504

This is his most recent one I think

 

Is Myran the new esam? Will the #myranopinions start trending? Find out next time on dragon ball z!!!

 

Awful MU's against bayonetta, cloud, and shulk forsure. Haven't tested sheik and fox but I'd assume they dominate olimar too.
Strong MU's against mario, diddy, ryu, and heavies. (Don't attack me about mario, it seems like a hard MU in theory because cape but it's honestly not even bad if played smart and you overwhelm them with the ground game)
I'd assume the lucario MU is annoying because pikmin ticks trigger his counter which is scaled off of his % and not damage.
Lmao the meta knight MU was downright unwinnable in brawl so I'll just say olimar loses that one too since I haven't tested it.
(These are solely based off of personal experience)

 

The only ones I can see being top 15 in the 20XX future are Robin and his consistent punishes and Olimar because he's such a wildcard anyway.

Robin
Top 15
No. Robin isn't nearly good enough to be top 15. Coming from a (former) Robin main, even though Robin's kill power, combo game, edgeguarding and projectiles are amazing, Robin is slow and crumples against rushdown. A character that crumples against rushdown is not top 15, because if you look at the ten characters you mentioned, seven of them can play effective rushdown, and the ones who can't can shut it down hard.
A character who can't play rushdown or deal with rushdown is not top 15 material.

Edit: Oh, and let's not forget the awful recovery.

 

Great pos Myran! I love your agresive Olimar.
I dont know if Olimar is top 15 but i know he is a ver good char (most dificult one to play) and i trust the opinion of such a good player.

 

Robin
Top 15
No. Robin isn't nearly good enough to be top 15. Coming from a (former) Robin main, even though Robin's kill power, combo game, edgeguarding and projectiles are amazing, Robin is slow and crumples against rushdown. A character that crumples against rushdown is not top 15, because if you look at the ten characters you mentioned, seven of them can play effective rushdown, and the ones who can't can shut it down hard.
A character who can't play rushdown or deal with rushdown is not top 15 material.

Edit: Oh, and let's not forget the awful recovery.

That's why I said "in a 20XX future"
That's not now, that's not in two years and it may never happen but I can see the possibility of the meta shaping just right for him to sneak in in the distance future

 

That's why I said "in a 20XX future"
That's not now, that's not in two years and it may never happen but I can see the possibility of the meta shaping just right for him to sneak in in the distance future

I see why you say that with how far the character has to grow, but poor mobility is unfortunately not a hurdle that can really be overcome easily.

 

I see why you say that with how far the character has to grow, but poor mobility is unfortunately not a hurdle that can really be overcome easily.

That's definitely true but Robin's polarising strenght in projectiles, powerful disjoints and consistent punishes and kill power might be able to leverage that and go full on fortress.

I'd like to mention pre-patch Luigi as a character with polarizing strenghts who was supposed to be held back by mobility but wasn't because of the shield pressuring projectiles he could put out

 

When's Roy going to get some love like this from somebody credible?!

 

That's definitely true but Robin's polarising strenght in projectiles, powerful disjoints and consistent punishes and kill power might be able to leverage that and go full on fortress.

I'd like to mention pre-patch Luigi as a character with polarizing strenghts who was supposed to be held back by mobility but wasn't because of the shield pressuring projectiles he could put out

Luigi still had only slightly below average mobility. Robin is the slowest running character in the game.

 

Luigi still had only slightly below average mobility. Robin is the slowest running character in the game.

And Luigi has one of the lowest air mobility in the game

 

And Luigi has one of the lowest air mobility in the game

So does Diddy Kong. Air mobility isn't nearly as important as ground mobility, though it's still useful.
Case and point, Jigglypuff.

 

I love how this article about Olimar's viability has an entire side conversation about Robin lol

which, btw, there's no real reason to believe that Robin is or will ever be top 15/high tier