Auto-Cancel DJC Fair into Tomahawk

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#1
Auto Cancel Fair is nothing new but I think there is some interesting application of using it in conjunction with DJC to feint an aerial approach and go for a Tomahawk instead.

I did a quick video first showing auto cancel DJC fairs then how it might be used as an approach.

http://youtu.be/1MzrEa0LBY8

The cool thing that is unique about this tomahawk is that you get the double jump sound effect and the starting animation of the fair to really 'sell' it to the opponent. Also it is easy to do and pretty non-committal.
 

N JA

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#2
I've been doing this recently (after seeing it on Leffen's stream of all places) and can vouch that it works well. I think DJC aerials are underutilized, with so much focus going to FC aerials.
 
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#3
I've been doing this recently (after seeing it on Leffen's stream of all places) and can vouch that it works well. I think DJC aerials are underutilized, with so much focus going to FC aerials.
How did it come up on Leffen's stream?

Also I agree that DJC may be getting overlooked, specifically DJC bair and DJC turnip throws against Marth used in an evade and counter style
 

Raisin

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#4
Oh wow, I never thought about this. Gonna have to started using this. c:
 

N JA

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#5
Before ending the stream a while back he was talking about Peach things that Armada doesn't really utilize as a way to show that he hasn't pushed her to the limit yet. Things mentioned included playing claw, auto-cancel DJC fair, glide-tossing turnips (airdodge + A), jump cancel pivot turnip throws from a run (which is pretty cool, you use z to throw the turnip behind you), and FC fair off a platform and back on in order to threaten center stage. I'm not sure if there was anything else.

Edit: here's the link http://www.twitch.tv/lffn/v/3935007?t=54m10s
 
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Raisin

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#6
Before ending the stream a while back he was talking about Peach things that Armada doesn't really utilize as a way to show that he hasn't pushed her to the limit yet. Things mentioned included playing claw, auto-cancel DJC fair, glide-tossing turnips (airdodge + A), jump cancel pivot turnip throws from a run (which is pretty cool, you use z to throw the turnip behind you), and FC fair off a platform and back on in order to threaten center stage. I'm not sure if there was anything else.

Edit: here's the link http://www.twitch.tv/lffn/v/3935007?t=54m10s
Really glad you linked this. It makes me wonder how much further Peach can actually go, and for Leffen, of all people, to make me realize this.
 

CAUP

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#7
I've done this before but never thought of an application.

It's kind of funny out of shield too
 
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Sycorax

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#9
I think it helps her platform movement. Especially getting to the top of Yoshi's and Dreamland.

Ideally, one should fair on the frame after the double jump right? If that's the case, it seems only possible to do this tech with a claw grip.

I was thinking that coming down with a FC fair is strictly better in most, if not all cases, but this tech does happen faster, so it is kinda a timing mixup.
 
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#11
Its possible this could be a replacement for Peach's wavedash, DJL is nice for getting out of shield but it doesn't get initial mobility that wavedashing gets whereas this does. We probably need an analysis of the frame data to know for sure. Perhaps if someone could test how quickly they can punish a Marth Forward Smash on shield with wavedash vs djc fair.

Also I can imagine it being used to avoid having to tech onto the stage or platforms if you still have your double jump. It may also be a way to weave through Jigglypuff's WoP.

I think we should also name the technique cos Auto-Cancel DJC Fair is a mouthful.
 

MTL Kyle

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#12
Its possible this could be a replacement for Peach's wavedash
Getting hit by something and losing your double jump as a consequence in certain situations is pretty grime.


DJL is nice for getting out of shield but it doesn't get initial mobility that wavedashing gets whereas this does
B-B-But the frames...


Perhaps if someone could test how quickly they can punish a Marth Forward Smash on shield with wavedash vs djc fair.
Or a FC moving aerial OoS since he might just hold the shield button as soon he notices he did ****

Also I can imagine it being used to avoid having to tech onto the stage or platforms if you still have your double jump. It may also be a way to weave through Jigglypuff's WoP.
Being a substitute for teching is actually pretty useful in certain situations.


It may also be a way to weave through Jigglypuff's WoP.
I've seen Leffen saying that this changes the Jiggs matchup, but again, losing the double jump doesn't seem a fair tradeoff when a lot of characters have low commitment aerials.
Are you seeing something that I'm not ? :p
 
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Sycorax

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#13
Its possible this could be a replacement for Peach's wavedash, DJL is nice for getting out of shield but it doesn't get initial mobility that wavedashing gets whereas this does. We probably need an analysis of the frame data to know for sure. Perhaps if someone could test how quickly they can punish a Marth Forward Smash on shield with wavedash vs djc fair.
I played around in debug mode and I doubt this can replace wavedash. Both this and wavedash share the 5 frame jumpsquat, and AC DJC Fair has 4 frames of landing lag. That leaves 6 frames to work with for movement. That's not enough, especially since you can't DJ too fast without landing back on the ground. 6 frames isn't enough to go anywhere with aerial mobility. A wavedash can go farther in few frames.

I think we should also name the technique cos Auto-Cancel DJC Fair is a mouthful.
Ness does a similar technique with the auto-cancel window on his dair. They call it psy-dashing IIRC. I vote for calling this Waifu-dashing. LOL
 

MagicScrumpy

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#14
I played around in debug mode and I doubt this can replace wavedash. Both this and wavedash share the 5 frame jumpsquat, and AC DJC Fair has 4 frames of landing lag. That leaves 6 frames to work with for movement. That's not enough, especially since you can't DJ too fast without landing back on the ground. 6 frames isn't enough to go anywhere with aerial mobility. A wavedash can go farther in few frames.


Ness does a similar technique with the auto-cancel window on his dair. They call it psy-dashing IIRC. I vote for calling this Waifu-dashing. LOL
Waifdashing
 

Sycorax

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#18
But then it sounds like Wifedashing which sounds like Wife invented it or something. Whatever. I guess we just disagree.

On a more serious note, I think this could also be useful after hitstun. If you don't have your float, your opponent may be expecting you to land in a certain spot, but you can use this to end up somewhere else. A little situational but still relevant.
 

N JA

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#20
Slapdash has my vote for sure. Or what about BearDashing to throw off all the non-Peach mains (and everybody that doesn't know move names)
 
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#22
Slapdash is great.
The Fair's name is Crown Smack and it is sometimes referred to as 'the Burger King crown' by commentators, so maybe Crown dashing or Crown Canceling seeing as its not really a dash, its more like a hop/tri-jump.
 
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TheCandyman

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#24
Can this be done out of a ground float? And if so I wonder how well this could be used to bait a defensive position. If you could continually use FC nairs or Fairs for spacing options you could condition you're opponent to shield the fair but instead grab them. From so far it seems like more of a great mix up option rather than mobile option even though it could work well for mobility.
 

Sycorax

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#25
I like Crown Canceling the most (besides Waifudashing but that doesn't seem to be catching on :crying:). Slapdash doesn't sound that good to me.
 

Nocki

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#26
As i read through this thread, the name Slap Cancel came to mind. Very interesting tech though, and funny that Leffen was the one exploring it. Also you don't need claw if you are comfortable/fast enough without it.
 

MTL Kyle

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#27
As i read through this thread, the name Slap Cancel came to mind. Very interesting tech though, and funny that Leffen was the one exploring it. Also you don't need claw if you are comfortable/fast enough without it.

I think the claw is more for the retreating fairs, as it is 100% easier and more effective with claw.
 

DrNigarMD

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#29
Before ending the stream a while back he was talking about Peach things that Armada doesn't really utilize as a way to show that he hasn't pushed her to the limit yet. Things mentioned included playing claw, auto-cancel DJC fair, glide-tossing turnips (airdodge + A), jump cancel pivot turnip throws from a run (which is pretty cool, you use z to throw the turnip behind you), and FC fair off a platform and back on in order to threaten center stage. I'm not sure if there was anything else.

Edit: here's the link http://www.twitch.tv/lffn/v/3935007?t=54m10s
:( the video got taken down
 

Sir_Slice

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#30
I think that this crowncancel tech has a lot of potential to be discovered. The auditory mind-games could really mess up your opponent. I'll try to think of a cool mix-up. Right now I'm thinking of mostly using it as bait (I'm thinking against CF,) he comes in thinking you're short hop nairing but instead you're back on the ground ready to take on the move.

Maybe approach with crownC --> crouch cancel --> punish
 
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