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Assistance with old man Dorf, please.

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
I got a little dilemma here. It may not seem all that big, but it is to me. My friend who I have known for 11 years, well he was the one who introduced me to Smash in the first place. He was like me though, only played it on and off. Well he has started playing Smash almost every day for the past three months while I have just been playing consistently for one month.


Anyway, his former mains were Yoshi, Young Link and Pichu...yes...Pichu. I finally talked him into trying out some new characters and pick a new main, so he chose Ganondorf. This is the thing, he is the main person I play against. He didn't know ANY advanced techs until about last month when I started using them constantly against him because I used to play for fun, but just recently got into competitive smash. He is a very competitive person and he is usually my biggest challenge in any other game that we play. However, he...for lack of a better word, sucks. I got tired of nearly four-stocking him every match so I decided that I was going to teach him some advanced stuff and pick up his game so that he posed a little bigger threat to me in a 1v1. He has made some progress...I taught him to tech very well...sometimes even better than me, but his ledge-teching is still very sketchy. I've shown him a million times how to wavedash and he can do it well in training mode, he still has a lot of work on his shffl's because he hasn't gotten out of the habit of mashing the buttons and not gently tapping X or Y to short hop. He has learned a few decent combos and stuff. Right now I am trying to get him better with his ledge-teching and edge guarding.


Ok, here is the catch...he can do all of this stuff in training mode which me and him have spent a lot of time in lately, but when we get into an actual 1v1 or I am watching him play against someone else...it's like he completely forgets all of it. He doesn't tech, WD at all, shffl, edge hog or guard, his timing is way off on his attacks and combos and...it's bad. I know it takes awhile for players to get used to using the advanced **** in an actual match, but I don't know what else to do. I don't want to give up on him because he is my best friend and I chill with him almost every day and he always wants to play Smash and is always telling me how he wants to start playing competitively like me, but something isn't working.


Is there any Dorf' users or just any players in general that have any advice on this matter or anything? I've got him watching vids regularly, he is in training mode almost every day and I take over 2nd player to put some pressure on him and stuff and he performs all of the actions very well, but in an actual 1v1 he just like panics and starts mindlessly dash attacking and attempting off-timed blind smash attacks. And he spams Dorf''s upB attack almost as much as a **** CPU.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but there has to be someone who can help because the sooner I can get him to play better and use advanced techniques in an actual battle...the better I'll get because like I said...I play against him almost every day and he is starting to lose hope. Save the poor dude...
 

Ulti

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
355
This happens to me to a lesser extent in tournaments - I flub my platform dashes alot. >.<

Anyway, I don't think this is a ganon specific problem, but a nervous-related one. Try doing something like a 10 minute timed match, allow him to practice his shffls, wd, ledge-hops, etc on his side of the stage, and you can just wait till he's warmed up on the other. Then just play kind of slowly. Tell him, "okay now try to shffl a f-air at me" or something, and give advice/react from there. Just focus on allowing him to implement the new features while you play, and make winning meaningless (for now).

Advanced techs take a while to implement into play, and quite a bit longer amount of time to implement well. Going full force on him may not be the best approach for teachcing him when to use what technique.
 

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
Yeah, I'm somewhat doing it like that. On training mode and then move to a timed match and just let him work on his moves and **** while I wavedash around the stage and occasionally attack and keep pressure on him. He resonds well in those cases, but when I say, "Ok, now we are going to have a real match and I am going to come at you with everything I got.", he just ditches everything he learns and spams three or four of Dorf's moves.

I don't know, maybe I should go easier on him and give him more time. He hasn't got out of the habit of avoiding my shield grabs. And I think shffling is one of the harder things for him to do because he doesn't have a light touch and I guess tapping the jump buttons aren't as easy for him, but he definately needs to get that down. And use L-canceling more too. It seems like the only times he L-cancels is when he doesn't really need to.

And another thing, I heard some stuff about Fox being a counterpick to Ganondorf and Fox and Falco being the toughest opponents for a Ganondorf player. Does that have any truth to it? Because I main Fox and second Falco.
 

O D I N

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
7,408
Location
GameAngel64's house, getting my @#% handed to me.
3DS FC
4098-3123-8629
OMFG, I HATE falco players (not the players, just the character). Falco is rough on Ganondorf for the following reasons:

1) Projectile (The one thing Ganondorf doesn't have).
2) Speed (Ganondorf is fast if you know what you're doing... but Falco has the speed and priority).
3) A nasty SH Spike... the D air... hate that F-in thing cause it's near impossible to cancel.
4) The shine/pillar combo (Uber hard to get out of, for me anyway. This is ****).

As far as getting him to improve... it takes time and practice. I've been a Ganondorf main for 3 years now... and I'm still working at it. I've improved A LOT since I started... but I still have aways to go. Try dittoing him. :shrug: This is a hard to topic to offer advice on, but good luck!
 

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
Well he came over today and after we watched jack *** #2 we had about an hour of training and then we had a real 1v1. In our first match, I decided to ditto him so we were both Ganondorf. He DIed really well, he actually had good timing on his edgeguarding although there were a couple chances for him to edgehog and I guess it slipped his mind :ohwell: . He ledge-teched...once. He had good timing on his combos. He L-canceled a lot, but not all of his aerials. He shffled a couple of times, but I could tell he was having a hard time with that and he attempted to wavedash a few times, but he ended up triangle jumping. He did manage to meteor spike me though. All in all, he took off two of my stock and it seemed like he made a lot of progress. In the second match, I used my main, Fox. I ditched one of my usual methods of gameplay and that's spamming the blaster...just to see if that would even it out a little. His gameplay was pretty much the same as the previous match, but he was trying to wavedash a little too much and it usually ended up in him triangle jumping. I mean, he started off strong, but he died out halfway through the battle and went back to his old ways of spamming the dash attack and he was even attempting to connect with the Warlock punch. I just think he has a hard time adjusting to my Fox, but I'm not going to get a new main just for him. Well thats my report on him for now. He will be back tommorow and we'll see how it goes.
 

linkmastersword

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 22, 2006
Messages
1,587
Location
Herndon and Newport News, Virginia
Ok, let him know that Ganondorf can pose a huge threat against the space animals if you play him right. that should give him some hope.

I also suggest you let him play in slo-mo melee so he has more time to react and l-cancel and other stuff. teach him the wonders of the Dair and the reverse uair.

and do plenty of Dittos.
 

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
Ok, let him know that Ganondorf can pose a huge threat against the space animals if you play him right. that should give him some hope.

I also suggest you let him play in slo-mo melee so he has more time to react and l-cancel and other stuff. teach him the wonders of the Dair and the reverse uair.

and do plenty of Dittos.
We had another ditto match on slo-mo melee and I think that helped him with his wavedashing, L-canceling and especially his shffls because after that we had a normal 1v1 ( still ditto though) and he did some nice shhfled aerials and I think he is getting the L-canceling down because I think he only missed a couple chances to L-cancel. He got me down to one stock and everything. We would've had another 1v1 with me using Fox, but he had to leave to play a gig downtown. I don't want to get my hopes up so I am going to wait and see how he does against my Fox before I start rejoicing, but thanks for all of your suggestions. I'll report his performance against my Fox tommorow. Hopefully it's good news...


I think this is the first time ever I am actually hoping that I lose...:ohwell:

(edit) - Oh and that thanks was meant for everyone. Didn't want to leave anyone out.
 

TimmWith2Ms

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
17
Location
Buffalo, NY
You taught him how to do all of the advanced techs at once? Seems like a giant overload on a person just getting into competitive smash, but it seems like he's adjusting well so far. And yes, Ganondorf (if comboed) has a horrible time against the space animals. In general or against characters with more priority he should shffl uairs and empty shorthop wavedash retreats. Of course don't expect him to do it all the time but give him some time to adjust. In due time he'll learn the ins-and-outs of your fox (as will you about his ganon) and it'll provide for a better game.
 

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
I wouldn't say I taught him all the advanced techs at once. I introduced him to about two new ones each day depending on how well and fast he learned them. And I did that just for the simple fact that I knew if I tried to teach him it all at once..his brain would explode so I just took it technique by technique and day by day. He got it down quick in training mode and stuff..he just doesn't think straight when he gets into an actual fast paced match with someone coming at him constantly like I do and I utilize Fox's speed and I never stop putting pressure on him. I want him to get used to that and stay calm and...think more when he is playing against other people. The main reason I am doing all this is not just because I want him to be a bigger challenge to me..that's a part of it, but I am tired of seeing him get his *** handed to him when some other of my friends are over playing smash.

I mean even if he gets really good..he is still going to lose from time to time..everyone does, but atleast then he wont be getting 4-stocked by me and my other friends...
 

TimmWith2Ms

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
17
Location
Buffalo, NY
Considering Ganondorf relies heavily on mind-games and out-thinking and predicting the opponent playing against a spontaneous and speedy character like fox seems a bit much. Try playing against him with a slower or more defensive (not necessarily both) character. This'll hopefully allow him to adjust at a slower (but still at a regular paced unlike slo-mo) game.
 

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
Considering Ganondorf relies heavily on mind-games and out-thinking and predicting the opponent playing against a spontaneous and speedy character like fox seems a bit much. Try playing against him with a slower or more defensive (not necessarily both) character. This'll hopefully allow him to adjust at a slower (but still at a regular paced unlike slo-mo) game.
You mean just temporarily in his learning process, right? Because I'm not getting a new main just because of him. When he told me he wanted to start playing smash competitively, I told him to make a serious decision about who he wanted to get good with. He knew at that moment that my main was Fox and Falco was my secondary, but he chose Dorf' and said he would stick with him.

He has responded well to ditto matches so far so I will continue with those for awhile longer, but sooner or later he is going to have to either adjust to my Fox or choose a new main, or a secondary that doesn't have as hard a time against the space animals like Ganondorf does and just use them when he plays against me.
 

TimmWith2Ms

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
17
Location
Buffalo, NY
Of course as a temporary learning tool. I didn't mean for you to pick up a completely new character just to aid your friend. Kind of like what I said in my previous post, when he slowly builds up his skill, he'll then adjust to your Fox and the tendencies and be able to read your movements better.
 

Justin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
199
Location
Sexico
Haha my bad man...I didn't mean to come off as a ****...it's just that I've actually had people suggest that to me, no joke.

But anyway, I don't really have much to say as far as how he played today...we only had a couple matches and he used his secondary, Yoshi for those two and the only time he used Ganondorf was against my other friend while I was taking a break. He and my other friend had three matches and he went 1 for 3 against him.
 

Frozenserpent

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
394
Location
Saratoga, CA
First of all, ganondorf sucks against space animals, like fox. It is very frustating to play against a space animal as ganon.

For shorthopping, lightness of touch does not matter, only speed. One advice for ppl beginnign to short hop is to use your fingernail or tip of thumb and flick the jump button. Simple to pick up.

Wavedashing isn't necessary with ganon. More important things to learn are l-cancelling and shuffling. It takes a while to do it perfectly.

Ledgeteching isn't necessarily picked up just like that. Ledgehopping an aerial as ganon is hard and can't be expected so early.

So for shuffling, he can just keep his mindgames simple and focus only on shuffling. Just spam shuffle fairs or bairs in the beginning, and you'll start getting the hang of it.

And... for ganon, winning doesn't come from the tech skill. I, personally, am very crappy at l-cancelling. i do not fast fall all the time. i can't even dash exactly like i want to. However, i can compete with people who have so much more tech skill than me, because ganon isn't a char like space animals.

If he wants to get better, than all it takes is motivation to get better and practice. If he really wants to improve, and tries to improve, he WILL get better. I'm sure no competitive smasher has never felt pissed about some aspect of the game. One example. I hate ganon's matchup against captain falcon. I am always getting grabbed into something and comboed to death, and the nair gives me no options. Although playing against falcons made me pissed, i knew that i had to improve this matchup so i forced myself to play more of these games, even when i don't feel like it. People who aren't as motivated to get better might quit from stuff like that, but if your friend has motivation, he will improve at the game, and he will become a challenge for you. It's that simple.
 

UchihaDemon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
29
Location
USR, NJ
i know how u feel man, except hes not my friend lol. ok heres the deal: ur buddy plain old sucks at smash. period. i ahve no clue why u guys r in training mode. training mode is a 1 player mode that doesnt allow the use of the c-stick for attacks so i recommend just putting him in melee with computers and letting him develope in sink or swim situations. thats what i did, never practiced but i played a really good player ever day for 15-30 minutes and now im almost as good as him (i was beating him for a while, but he got better, lol). we (the guy im playing with is Fluffy) know a guy that has played since the game came out and were both better than he is, its sad. also, maybe ganon is just not a good character for him. he fits my style, thats why i use him. if u ahve videos of u guys playing i might be able to tell what his style is and recommend some characters, or u could just describe his general techniques to me (like his attack patters, defense/edge quard, etc.). if u didnt live in texas id play u myself but its a LONG drive lol. good luck
 
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