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Are you going to buy a Smash Box? Why or why not?

Will you buy a Smash Box?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 2 25.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • I'll wait for some time then decide.

    Votes: 2 25.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

Jamsu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
15
Hi everybody! I am a samus player from Southern California who has been experimenting with netplay for the past couple of months. First post here, please tell me if I'm doing anything wrong :)

I guess I'm a bit late on this topic, but there is a little less than a month left before the Smash Box campaign on Kickstarter will be finished.

It seems to me that GC controllers have been around too long for the Smash Box to effectively compete in tournaments, but I'm thinking of buying one after it comes out for the sake of my hands.

Are you gonna buy one?
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
No. I love the GC controller and don't want to support something that goes strongly against the standard. SDI is a lot easier with the smashbox and I personally only think it's appropriate for someone in Hax's position that actually has a need to use it.
 

Raycu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2015
Messages
142
No. I love the GC controller and don't want to support something that goes strongly against the standard. SDI is a lot easier with the smashbox and I personally only think it's appropriate for someone in Hax's position that actually has a need to use it.
How would you feel about a modded controller that performed the same as a GC, but designed more ergonomically so that it doesn't cause long term strain on tendons and joints?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
How would you feel about a modded controller that performed the same as a GC, but designed more ergonomically so that it doesn't cause long term strain on tendons and joints?
I feel that one could be made that doesn't provide a significant inherent advantage in competition. It's possible.
 
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Raycu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2015
Messages
142
Honestly, I don't think it would be too hard to do. Change the angle of the grips so that your wrists aren't bent, move the triggers so that you don't have to grip it in such a claw like way.

The only thing I can't think of is how to make the control stick safer so that arthritis isn't as prevalent.
 

Silen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
31
Location
Altamonte Springs, FL
No, Because the Smashbox gives certain advantages like SDI and also I like that when everyone uses the gamecube controller, we are all on one standard. I think while people will have a very hard time using the smashbox, and most likely not win anything, it should still be banned. If a controller gives any advantages over a gamecube controller, it should be banned. Even if it sucks in other areas
 

PGH_Chrispy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
227
Location
Pittsburgh
NNID
Geliaron
With everyone talking about how everything should be equal to or worse than the Gamecube, I wonder how much you've looked into the debate. From a gameplay standpoint, why would you be outright against anything that outperforms the standard? Seems pretty anti-meta.

That said, maybe Gamecube controller is about where the line should be drawn. But then, what type of controller? OG, Japan import, Sm4sh? Are we talking vanilla controllers, or are Kadano's modifications for perfect wavedash angles, IC desync jumps, and other changes acceptable and recommended? What if we went further and remapped buttons?

Playing on the smashbox will require a different mindset, no doubt. Sure, you can perfect wavedash every time, SDI like a madman, and do otherwise near-impossible tech like pivot utilt, but it comes at the cost of unintuitive movement and (lol) taunting. I can respect someone who uses it, but I won't because of the barriers of cost and control scheme.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
With everyone talking about how everything should be equal to or worse than the Gamecube, I wonder how much you've looked into the debate. From a gameplay standpoint, why would you be outright against anything that outperforms the standard? Seems pretty anti-meta.

That said, maybe Gamecube controller is about where the line should be drawn. But then, what type of controller? OG, Japan import, Sm4sh? Are we talking vanilla controllers, or are Kadano's modifications for perfect wavedash angles, IC desync jumps, and other changes acceptable and recommended? What if we went further and remapped buttons?
I have looked into this issue extensively. I have been one of the main people debating against knotches for perfect wd angles, if not the main person. Since we are dealing with this issue from a competitive standpoint, just seeing better play isn't the only issue. It's not anti-meta to feel that all competitors should conquer the same or extremely similar technical obstacles in order to succeed. The melee community is more pro-meta now than ever before, there is no need for physical assistance when performing extremely technical maneuvers. I think remapping buttons is a bad idea as well from a competitive standpoint. Making the game easier is not the only issue at hand.
 

Silen

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 6, 2016
Messages
31
Location
Altamonte Springs, FL
I have looked into this issue extensively. I have been one of the main people debating against knotches for perfect wd angles, if not the main person. Since we are dealing with this issue from a competitive standpoint, just seeing better play isn't the only issue. It's not anti-meta to feel that all competitors should conquer the same or extremely similar technical obstacles in order to succeed. The melee community is more pro-meta now than ever before, there is no need for physical assistance when performing extremely technical maneuvers. I think remapping buttons is a bad idea as well from a competitive standpoint. Making the game easier is not the only issue at hand.
Amen dude
 

PGH_Chrispy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
227
Location
Pittsburgh
NNID
Geliaron
I have looked into this issue extensively. I have been one of the main people debating against knotches for perfect wd angles, if not the main person. Since we are dealing with this issue from a competitive standpoint, just seeing better play isn't the only issue. It's not anti-meta to feel that all competitors should conquer the same or extremely similar technical obstacles in order to succeed. The melee community is more pro-meta now than ever before, there is no need for physical assistance when performing extremely technical maneuvers. I think remapping buttons is a bad idea as well from a competitive standpoint. Making the game easier is not the only issue at hand.
Good stuff then. I do still disagree in some ways about notches not being important, e.g. how much is edgeguarding against/recovering as spacies influenced by notched angles, as well as the obvious perfect wavedash angles, but I do respect your point that ease of access is not and should not be the primary concern.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Good stuff then. I do still disagree in some ways about notches not being important, e.g. how much is edgeguarding against/recovering as spacies influenced by notched angles, as well as the obvious perfect wavedash angles, but I do respect your point that ease of access is not and should not be the primary concern.
Regarding notches, people seem to underestimate the significance of having super-human accuracy with the stick, and seem to ignore the fact that not all notches are created equal. Keep in mind I am not talking about shield drop notches, as I feel the reasoning behind them is sensible (since controllers are supposed to be able to shield droo via the Axe method and many do not). Having an insane level of consistency for maximum length wavedashes, up-b recoveries, and maximum horizontal ASDI distance for punish/evade is a huge advantage. Melee is like the butterfly effect, where getting that one grab, escaping that one punish, or preventing that one SD influences much more than the single situation at hand, and deep notches allow you to do these things with godlike consistency. It takes much less time to get used to the presence of the notch than it does to develop high level consistency through practice alone. And no matter how much you practice, I can say with virtual certainty that your consistency will not surpass that of a competent player that has a groove guiding his stick to the perfect place every time (and keeping the stick there, nearly completely eliminating the possibility of slipping off of the perfect spot during high stress situations or any time you may have shakey hands).
 
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Jamsu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
15
Here's an interesting video of Hax on the B0XX vs Slox in a tournament. It's been on the front of /r/smashbros for a little bit, but I thought I might share it here for the sake of showing off how good something like the smashbox might be in tournament play.
Though Hax loses both games to Slox, he didn't do too bad considering Slox is a ranked top 100 player, and his movement and techskill looked pretty damn good.
Having been around the melee scene for a long time, and having full customization of the B0XX, both Hax's movement and tournament performance are going to improve real quick. Remember that it's been about three weeks since he got his cast off.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Not anyone on earth :p
I think so. Any fox or falco, any sheik, Armada's peach... M2K's marth would be the most difficult and then hbox. But when hax goes super saiyan he can overwhelm anyone. The speed and pressure is too good. He's the best fox during beast mode.
 

Synnett

Alligator Lord
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
1,577
Location
Montreal, QC
I've always considered the original controllers to be part of the game, so getting something new kinda shakes me. Also, I absolutely despise box controllers, I think they are ugly and they hurt my hands so much. People were pretty excited about having a consistent and available controller ready for competition, but the price is pretty high and I doubt many will be able to afford it.

I most likely won't get it, I love my original controller too much.
 

TheSilentAmp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Chester, Virginia
NNID
TheSilentAmp
3DS FC
1246-9215-5468
Will I buy one? I'm still debating.

I'm all for it being legal though. The thing that I love about the Smashbox is that it rewards consistency, which is something you should definitely be rewarded for. We all know how the GC controllers can have varying amounts of snapback, or don't quite go as far on an angle as people would like. So even if you do the "correct" inputs, you might not get the desired result because you weren't lucky enough to have the GC controller you needed.

This pretty much negates that and rewards people for consistently hitting the right buttons to perform tech. I see no problem with that at all. It also comes with the tradeoff of pretty unintuitive movement, as well as having to adjust.

Also, before you say that it's going to become the ultimately superior option to the point where you either need a Smashbox or you lose to someone who has one, take a look at the FGC.

Despite the fact that the Hitbox is objectively superior and allows you perform crazy tech consistently like Standing 720's, nobody has won a major with the Hitbox. So... Take that into consideration.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
All types of controllers reward consistency. The difference is, using the stick for multiple SDI inputs is almost inarguably more difficult. I made a post in the new legality thread i think everyone should read
 

TheSilentAmp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Chester, Virginia
NNID
TheSilentAmp
3DS FC
1246-9215-5468
All types of controllers reward consistency. The difference is, using the stick for multiple SDI inputs is almost inarguably more difficult. I made a post in the new legality thread i think everyone should read
And yet you could argue it's at the tradeoff of very unintuitive movement. It's almost like you didn't read what I said regarding traditional fighters and the Hitbox.

Also, I do not believe in this "Well certain players need it, so only let those players use it, but all the other players that WANT to use it? Nah, screw them. GC controller or bust, don't like it, get out lol".

Imagine if we still used that logic in the FGC. Do you think Hitboxes should be banned because they allow for consistent tech that is near impossible on a pad, or even a fightstick? As I mentioned before, you can consistently do standing 720's with the Hitbox, so long as you get the input down correctly. Should it be banned?

Well, regardless of what you think, it USED TO BE banned, and it isn't anymore, and nobody has won a major with the Hitbox.

Do you think this is gonna be any different for Smash?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
And yet you could argue it's at the tradeoff of very unintuitive movement. It's almost like you didn't read what I said regarding traditional fighters and the Hitbox.

Also, I do not believe in this "Well certain players need it, so only let those players use it, but all the other players that WANT to use it? Nah, screw them. GC controller or bust, don't like it, get out lol".

Imagine if we still used that logic in the FGC. Do you think Hitboxes should be banned because they allow for consistent tech that is near impossible on a pad, or even a fightstick? As I mentioned before, you can consistently do standing 720's with the Hitbox, so long as you get the input down correctly. Should it be banned?

Well, regardless of what you think, it USED TO BE banned, and it isn't anymore, and nobody has won a major with the Hitbox.

Do you think this is gonna be any different for Smash?
Ok, first of all, yes I did read what you posted. I am not sure what you are insinuating. ANY change can be argued as a trade-off. You could say turbo buttons are a trade-off, as it is more difficult to perform one singular input. I see this as completely irrelevant.

I am clearly not saying "screw" anyone, or telling anyone to "get out". I am not sure where you got this, or what you are insinuating. I have simply stated my humble opinion, and shed light on the gravity/importance of this issue. I feel it is a complicated one that requires ample thought and foresight. As much time and thought as I have put into this, I don't have a solution that I feel is good enough.

As far as I know, the FGC doesn't have a 15-16 year standard, so that is beginning to compare apples to oranges. Usually applying the same "logic" to something significantly different doesn't work perfectly. I am not familiar with how important the ability to perform a 720 with virtual super-human consistency is, but I do have a good idea as to how much melee will be affected by eliminating the necessity for having excellent speed and accuracy with the stick to perform certain sequences of SDI. I am not saying anything should be banned. I assure you that if I felt that way, I would have said something similar to "this should be banned".

At this point (after reading the 4th paragraph you posted) I feel you have vastly misinterpreted my stance, as well as my intentions, and are either upset or mad at me. My advice would be to calm down, and keep an open mind on this issue as I assure I am doing. Essentially telling someone that their opinion doesn't matter really gets us nowhere.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Will I buy one? I'm still debating.

I'm all for it being legal though. The thing that I love about the Smashbox is that it rewards consistency, which is something you should definitely be rewarded for. We all know how the GC controllers can have varying amounts of snapback, or don't quite go as far on an angle as people would like. So even if you do the "correct" inputs, you might not get the desired result because you weren't lucky enough to have the GC controller you needed.

This pretty much negates that and rewards people for consistently hitting the right buttons to perform tech. I see no problem with that at all. It also comes with the tradeoff of pretty unintuitive movement, as well as having to adjust.

Also, before you say that it's going to become the ultimately superior option to the point where you either need a Smashbox or you lose to someone who has one, take a look at the FGC.

Despite the fact that the Hitbox is objectively superior and allows you perform crazy tech consistently like Standing 720's, nobody has won a major with the Hitbox. So... Take that into consideration.
The Smash Box doesn't reward consistency, it guarantees it by doing it for you. If someone showed up to a tournament with a controller that automatically shield dropped when you pressed down on the D-pad, would you have a problem with that? Because that's all the Smash Box does. It isn't allowing players to be more precise, it is eliminating the need for any kind of precision by giving you what are essentially angle macros.

Also, none of the traditional fighters that allow Hitboxes have analog controls, and definitely not delicate, precise analog controls like Melee. A button press is much more similar to a fight stick input than to a GameCube controller input, so the comparison really isn't applicable. Ignoring this large chasm of difference.
 
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TheSilentAmp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Chester, Virginia
NNID
TheSilentAmp
3DS FC
1246-9215-5468
Ok, first of all, yes I did read what you posted. I am not sure what you are insinuating. ANY change can be argued as a trade-off. You could say turbo buttons are a trade-off, as it is more difficult to perform one singular input. I see this as completely irrelevant.

I am clearly not saying "screw" anyone, or telling anyone to "get out". I am not sure where you got this, or what you are insinuating. I have simply stated my humble opinion, and shed light on the gravity/importance of this issue. I feel it is a complicated one that requires ample thought and foresight. As much time and thought as I have put into this, I don't have a solution that I feel is good enough.

As far as I know, the FGC doesn't have a 15-16 year standard, so that is beginning to compare apples to oranges. Usually applying the same "logic" to something significantly different doesn't work perfectly. I am not familiar with how important the ability to perform a 720 with virtual super-human consistency is, but I do have a good idea as to how much melee will be affected by eliminating the necessity for having excellent speed and accuracy with the stick to perform certain sequences of SDI. I am not saying anything should be banned. I assure you that if I felt that way, I would have said something similar to "this should be banned".

At this point (after reading the 4th paragraph you posted) I feel you have vastly misinterpreted my stance, as well as my intentions, and are either upset or mad at me. My advice would be to calm down, and keep an open mind on this issue as I assure I am doing. Essentially telling someone that their opinion doesn't matter really gets us nowhere.

Fair enough. I get where you're coming from, but I still cannot see as many drawbacks to this as there are benefits. I understand you're in the boat that this is a slippery slope, and it comes down to "Well, if this goes through, where is the limit? Where do we say enough is enough?" Although I personally believe enough is enough when one input becomes more than one action, if you understand what I'm saying.

To be honest, I feel a lot of this is going to come down to comfort in the end. Despite the massive benefits that the Smashbox could provide, do you think most players are going to give up their comfort zone to basically re-learn how to play?

I honestly don't think most will unless they were really just uncomfortable with the GC controller after all and only used it because it was the only option (like me, to be honest). This sort of comfort zone stays even on a micro scale, and especially a major one. (Example: Almost nobody uses Bidou control scheme in Smash 4 despite it allowing you to do so many things and gain a serious edge because they'd fall out of their comfort control scheme and have to pretty much re-learn how they play the game). I can only imagine it will be far worse when learning an entirely new controller.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Fair enough. I get where you're coming from, but I still cannot see as many drawbacks to this as there are benefits. I understand you're in the boat that this is a slippery slope, and it comes down to "Well, if this goes through, where is the limit? Where do we say enough is enough?" Although I personally believe enough is enough when one input becomes more than one action, if you understand what I'm saying.

To be honest, I feel a lot of this is going to come down to comfort in the end. Despite the massive benefits that the Smashbox could provide, do you think most players are going to give up their comfort zone to basically re-learn how to play?

I honestly don't think most will unless they were really just uncomfortable with the GC controller after all and only used it because it was the only option (like me, to be honest). This sort of comfort zone stays even on a micro scale, and especially a major one. (Example: Almost nobody uses Bidou control scheme in Smash 4 despite it allowing you to do so many things and gain a serious edge because they'd fall out of their comfort control scheme and have to pretty much re-learn how they play the game). I can only imagine it will be far worse when learning an entirely new controller.
The slippery slope is a real issue, but I think even as-is, the Smash Box is already bannable. You are against 1 input resulting in more than 1 action, but shouldn't the difficulty of the inputs also be comparable? How do you even quantify an analog input like a shield drop? Moving the stick into the shield drop zone almost always takes more than one frame on a GCC, so as far as the game is concerned, it takes multiple inputs to shield drop. The Smash Box does shield drops with just a single input in a single frame, and by this logic it could be considered a macro. It is performing an action with 1 input that normally requires 4-6 depending on the precision of the player. This is the fundamental issue of modded controllers. As soon as you allow someone to decide how to perform inputs, they are going to choose the easiest method. If I put a volume dial on my controller, does spinning it 1 degree count as a single input? If so, I can easily get insane down-B mashes with the Mario brothers by spinning a dial. Buttons aren't the only way to perform inputs, which is why allowing players to decide how the do inputs will result in unfair controllers.

I'm not sure what massive benefits you're talking about are. I'm assuming you mean ergonomic benefits, but it's already been explained that the vast majority of players can use a GCC properly and totally avoid hand issues. Even with all the players we have not playing properly (i.e. not taking breaks, stretching, or learning to perform inputs delicately), only a very small percentage have had significant health consequences. It sucks that some people can't compete because they have physical limitations, but this is true in all sports. If you have bad knees and want to play basketball, you can't design some new kind of shoe with springs that allows you to jump higher with less effort. It doesn't matter if you are jumping the same height as every other player on the court, the fact that you're doing it because of your shoes is unfair to other competitors. Melee and basketball competitions alike are designed to test physical skills, as well as mental ones. If your body won't let you perform the necessary physical actions, then you can't compete with other players on an even playing field.

Smash 4 doesn't seem to provide massive benefits to players that are more technical, but Melee clearly does. You get massive benefits by replacing all of your wavedashes with perfect angle wavedashes, never missing recovery angles, and worst of all, being able to do ridiculous multi-SDI. Idk why people think it would be so difficult to learn a new controller. Sure it will be awkward at first, but Hax has already demonstrated reasonable competence with the B0XX. Part of this is due to the fact that, like I said before, the difficulty of the inputs is largely being negated. Doing shield drops or perfect wavedashes on a GCC takes years of practice to hit, and even then players still miss sometimes. On a modded controller, these are braindead button combinations that require no level of precision, all you have to do is hold the right button and you never mess up. Someone who's never played before can practice shield dropping on a Smash Box for 30 minutes and achieve a higher success rate with perfect shield drop speeds than Plup on a GCC. If someone doesn't see an issue with this, idk what to tell them.
 

Lola Luftnagle

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
616
Yeah, I'll pass on this controller, and here's why:
  • Let me tell y'all, I've played various Tekken iterations on arcade cabinet way back when. Never could get a good feel for the controls there.
  • The GC controller I've grown accustomed to all my 15+ years of playing Smash, so...
 

Rikutsu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
19
NNID
rikutsu
I've personally never enjoyed using any sort of fight-stick, and can't see myself enjoying the SmashBox either.

If it became standard within the Smash community and the differences were too major between a SB player and GC player to ignore, then maybe I'd jump on board.

At this point in time? No, especially when it's a relatively hefty 200+ dollar investment for something that might be banned in competitive play.
 
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ribbon_heart

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1
Either the B0XX or the smashbox, which ever one turns out better and it's legal.
I have experience using keyboard for lots of platformers and standard-issue 2D fighters, along with a lot of FPSes. Having movement bound to multiple fingers on multiple buttons is a godsend. You're always going to get exactly the direction you put in, instantly. With joysticks, there's a level of travel time from one side of the gate to the other, and trying to go to the other side faster leads to a greater chance of error. The precision of digital buttons translated into analog with modifiers is ingenious.
I don't have a problem with it being legal, considering the modifiers aren't macros and it's not necessarily easier to use either, unless people want to ban it because it's just a better way to control the game than GCCs are. I'm no TO or even close to high level, though.
 
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