Are there any significant disadvantages to playing on an HDTV?

[Nomzr]

Compared to an old CRT TV?

Are there any other options?

 

[MasterMar]

HDTVs have a small amount of input lag and switching between that and a crt can be jarring for a couple of minutes. It's not much, but it's noticeable.

 

[Nomzr]

That explains the weird input lag then :i. Never actually played PM on a CRT though.

CRTs are the one's with the fat backs right? Even if it's flatscreen? Are there any other types of televisions other than flatscreen and CRT?

Would switching to "game mode" on my HDTV have any effect? Would it even be comparable to a CRT?

 

[MasterMar]

I don't know what "game mode" means and I've never seen it on any tv. Try looking up your specific tv to see what it does.
And yes CRTs have the fat backs. I'm not sure about the types of tvs.

 

[Deleted member]

I've always wondered this since I've never had a chance to try it - will playing PM on the Wii U reduce/eliminate the HDTV lag?

 

[MasterMar]

No. I play PM on Wii U and the lag is still there.

 

[QuickLava]

"Game Mode" is used to try to minimize the input lag you're talking about so yes it will make a difference, but I don't believe it removes the lag in it's entirety. I would however say that provided the opportunity, you should try playing on a CRT just to try to get a feel for it, especially if you're expecting to play at tournaments that use them. As far as what exactly a CRT (which, fun fact: stands for Cathode Ray Tube) is, it is indeed those fat backed TV's with buttons for things like power, volume and channel control on the front. Relatively cheap if you're looking to buy one, the ones I've seen run anywhere from 80 to a 100 bucks.

 

[Kiddy_Dong]

Contrary to popular belief, HDTVs are not superior to CRTs in every way. Not even in picture quality (depending on your video input). Here's the advantages of CRT televisions:

1. No image upscaling. HDTVs need to artificially stretch 480i or 240i images to fit its native resolution, making the picture look muddy. CRTs need no upscaling because they have no native resolution.

2. No input lag. When the HDTV needs to do upscaling, it keeps each frame in a buffer so it can multiply the pixels and draw the upscaled image on the screen. The byproduct of this is a small but noticable delay between the player's controller inputs and the action on screen. CRTs need no such processing, resulting in a lagless gaming experience.

3. Softer image and greater color depth. CRT scanlines help blur the edges of images on screen, making retro games appear smoother. CRT technology is also able to produce more vivid colors than most HDTVs.

CRTs are the one's with the fat backs right? Even if it's flatscreen? Are there any other types of televisions other than flatscreen and CRT?

In laymans' terms, yes. CRT technology is based around a gun which fires electrons at the screen, necessitating extra space. Keep in mind that there are flatscreen CRTs as well. When you say "flatscreen" I assume you are referring to LCD HDTVs.

Would switching to "game mode" on my HDTV have any effect? Would it even be comparable to a CRT?

It would help more if you were playing games on a console that matches the TV's native resolution. Game Mode does not eliminate upscaling, which is the primary culprit in input lag.


So yes, you're at a significant disadvantage with an HDTV if you plan to do standard-definition gaming. Let me know if you have any more questions on this subject.

 

[W.A.C.]

I use a 1080p monitor with a response time of 2ms. I assume whatever input lag is added is so minimal that it's not noticeable?

 

[GFooChombey]

@ Kiddy_Dong What is your CRT of choice?

 

[Narpas_sword]

Contrary to popular belief, HDTVs are not superior to CRTs in every way. Not even in picture quality (depending on your video input). Here's the advantages of CRT televisions:

1. No image upscaling. HDTVs need to artificially stretch 480i or 240i images to fit its native resolution, making the picture look muddy. CRTs need no upscaling because they have no native resolution.

2. No input lag. When the HDTV needs to do upscaling, it keeps each frame in a buffer so it can multiply the pixels and draw the upscaled image on the screen. The byproduct of this is a small but noticable delay between the player's controller inputs and the action on screen. CRTs need no such processing, resulting in a lagless gaming experience.

3. Softer image and greater color depth. CRT scanlines help blur the edges of images on screen, making retro games appear smoother. CRT technology is also able to produce more vivid colors than most HDTVs.
.

don't lump all LCD's together if you're only going to look at the best crts. =/

there are some **** ugly picture quality crt's out there. and they're susceptible to colour bleed and other **** when the CRT gets old. considering you don't buy them new anymore, the odds of getting an old one that is turning to **** is quite high


CRT's do have input lag, its about 8.3 ms on average.

 

[wiiztec]

No input lag. When the HDTV needs to do upscaling, it keeps each frame in a buffer so it can multiply the pixels and draw the upscaled image on the screen. The byproduct of this is a small but noticable delay between the player's controller inputs and the action on screen. CRTs need no such processing, resulting in a lagless gaming experience.

It's not just image processing that makes LCD's have more display lag the technology itself is laggier than CRT's

CRT's do have input lag, its about 8.3 ms on average.

This is completely false CRT's have about 0.5ms of lag at most

 

[Narpas_sword]

interesting. ill have to find the source of that. my apologies if it's wrong.

 

[Nomzr]

Contrary to popular belief, HDTVs are not superior to CRTs in every way. Not even in picture quality (depending on your video input). Here's the advantages of CRT televisions:

1. No image upscaling. HDTVs need to artificially stretch 480i or 240i images to fit its native resolution, making the picture look muddy. CRTs need no upscaling because they have no native resolution.

2. No input lag. When the HDTV needs to do upscaling, it keeps each frame in a buffer so it can multiply the pixels and draw the upscaled image on the screen. The byproduct of this is a small but noticable delay between the player's controller inputs and the action on screen. CRTs need no such processing, resulting in a lagless gaming experience.

3. Softer image and greater color depth. CRT scanlines help blur the edges of images on screen, making retro games appear smoother. CRT technology is also able to produce more vivid colors than most HDTVs.



In laymans' terms, yes. CRT technology is based around a gun which fires electrons at the screen, necessitating extra space. Keep in mind that there are flatscreen CRTs as well. When you say "flatscreen" I assume you are referring to LCD HDTVs.



It would help more if you were playing games on a console that matches the TV's native resolution. Game Mode does not eliminate upscaling, which is the primary culprit in input lag.


So yes, you're at a significant disadvantage with an HDTV if you plan to do standard-definition gaming. Let me know if you have any more questions on this subject.

I'm aware that CRTs are Cathode Ray Tube technology, I actually remember studying this a lot in my senior year in Physics, it's just so weird to me that this technology is more appropriate in this case. And I noticed you said they don't have a native resolution? Seriously?

So is this even true for modern games? In cases such as the GC and the Wii, I'd imagine playing at what the games and console were designed to play at is the best, but for more modern installments, say Smash 4 U, would it be better to play on a CRT or HDTV? Wouldn't it not need to upscale considering it's newer?

 

[GP&B]

While most HDTVs tend to have more overall slower response times, the upscaling is the biggest offender. Smash 4 should have less troubles with an HDMI input than Melee/Brawl/PM with component. But for all purposes and intents, I'd aim for a gaming monitor that's built to have as quick response time as possible.

 

[Anonistry]

I... wow, are you all serious? I don't even feel like I have ever noticed anything like this... I guess I really need to develop my scrub reaction timing.

 

[Narpas_sword]

the tv doesnt scale anything, because it doesn't have pixels, it just shoots **** at the screen

I... wow, are you all serious? I don't even feel like I have ever noticed anything like this... I guess I really need to develop my scrub reaction timing.

if you use your tv, and yours only, as long as its not SUPER laggy, you'll grow accustomed to it within an hour or so.

It's when you change you notice

 

[Anonistry]

I never really feel bad about switching either though... although I don't think I have ever played a game on one TV and then on another just a day after. Generally seems to be like months on end and then for whatever reason using a different tv (seemed to happen alot during college >.>)

 

[Narpas_sword]

well if theyre similar in input lag, youll probably adjust within a minute

 

[Phaiyte]

If I'm in the character select screen and the hand icon doesn't move at the same time as my stick, I get up and leave that setup alone forever.

 

[Kiddy_Dong]

I'm aware that CRTs are Cathode Ray Tube technology, I actually remember studying this a lot in my senior year in Physics, it's just so weird to me that this technology is more appropriate in this case. And I noticed you said they don't have a native resolution? Seriously?

So is this even true for modern games? In cases such as the GC and the Wii, I'd imagine playing at what the games and console were designed to play at is the best, but for more modern installments, say Smash 4 U, would it be better to play on a CRT or HDTV? Wouldn't it not need to upscale considering it's newer?

Yes, they don't have a native resolution. CRTs are not a matrix of pixels like LCDs are. That said, the electron gun in every CRT is only capable of projecting images up to a certain resolution -- typically 480i, but sometimes up to 1080i in HD CRTs. I would recommend against playing on an HD CRT because they tend to add tons of digital post processing (and even some image "upsampling"), resulting in input lag. I learned this the hard way.

If you're playing on a console that outputs natively at 720p (and assuming it's set to 720p in the system settings), then the only lag you would theoretically get is from the HDTV's digital processing. TV manufacturers love to add all kinds of circuitry that supposedly makes images look sharper, movement smoother, and colors richer. They are catering primarily to those who watch movies or broadcast television, not gamers. All those extra bells and whistles cause a variable amount of lag depending on the TV.

Watch this video to see how playing on an HD system can still be a laggy experience because of the TV (in game mode even!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hp2QlmVGCU

This obviously poses a problem for Smashers. If some HDTVs have significant lag and others have negligible lag, how are we to determine a standard? My guess is that the community will continue to use CRTs even for Smash 4. Nearly all tournaments not exclusive to Smash 4 will already have many CRT setups for the older titles, so why not eliminate any variables and just play on a CRT? Sure the picture quality will not be as great, but it's likely to be a dealbreaker for many TOs and players.

What is your CRT of choice?

The holy grail of CRTs is probably the Sony PVM-20L5. It's a studio grade CRT that's capable of RGB inputs and has incredible scanline density.

In terms of "normal" CRTs, the Sony Trinitron WEGAs are great. Many of them have YPbPr inputs which is about as good as you can get for consumer models. Just stay away from the HD ones.

I... wow, are you all serious? I don't even feel like I have ever noticed anything like this... I guess I really need to develop my scrub reaction timing.

You'd be surprised how much of a difference playing on a CRT is. The whole HDTV vs CRT debate is a lot like tennis. To the casual observer, watching a match on a clay court vs a hard court is essentially the same thing. But once you actually play on each, the difference in timing and speed is enormous.

 

[smashbro29]

Contrary to popular belief, HDTVs are not superior to CRTs in every way. Not even in picture quality (depending on your video input). Here's the advantages of CRT televisions:

1. No image upscaling. HDTVs need to artificially stretch 480i or 240i images to fit its native resolution, making the picture look muddy. CRTs need no upscaling because they have no native resolution.

2. No input lag. When the HDTV needs to do upscaling, it keeps each frame in a buffer so it can multiply the pixels and draw the upscaled image on the screen. The byproduct of this is a small but noticable delay between the player's controller inputs and the action on screen. CRTs need no such processing, resulting in a lagless gaming experience.

3. Softer image and greater color depth. CRT scanlines help blur the edges of images on screen, making retro games appear smoother. CRT technology is also able to produce more vivid colors than most HDTVs.



In laymans' terms, yes. CRT technology is based around a gun which fires electrons at the screen, necessitating extra space. Keep in mind that there are flatscreen CRTs as well. When you say "flatscreen" I assume you are referring to LCD HDTVs.



It would help more if you were playing games on a console that matches the TV's native resolution. Game Mode does not eliminate upscaling, which is the primary culprit in input lag.


So yes, you're at a significant disadvantage with an HDTV if you plan to do standard-definition gaming. Let me know if you have any more questions on this subject.

To be fair, there's upscaling (even if it is a pain in the ass).

For example right now I'm planning to transcode the component signals from my GCN-era consoles to RGB and use them in an XRGB-mini(1-2f input lag added) with an HDTV (lag under 1f). I'd be playing with maximum 3f input lag and that will only improve with future TVs and upscalers.

 

[Nomzr]

Something I can't stop thinking about, CRTs, if looked at closely, show rectangles or square-like shapes that seem to resemble pixels. Are these not pixels? What makes them different?

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Those are called graticules, you have an older-model device then, if I'm correct. They're more common in oscilloscopes/high-precision electronic equipment for measuring the properties of waves and stuff being displayed on the actual CRT screen.

...Either that, or you are looking at the phosphor chemical-type backing layer of the screen that lights up and is how the picture appears in the first place.

Neither are crucial to gaming lol, don't worry about it.

 

[Nomzr]

Oh... That clears a lot of childhood confusion up.

 

[Paquito]

What's used in most tournaments? CRTs or LCDs?

EDIT

Also, does anyone have experience being able to play on both? Is it easy to adjust to a CRT if you've been practicing on a LCD?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What's used in most tournaments? CRTs or LCDs?

EDIT

Also, does anyone have experience being able to play on both? Is it easy to adjust to a CRT if you've been practicing on a LCD?

CRTs
Sometimes LCD's can be used. It needs to have a low response time, among other things, to be a viable LCD.

 

[mimgrim]

Yea. Some LCDs are actually just as good as a CRT. At my home I play on an LCD pretty much 100%, I have a CRT but it is too big for an RV so I keep it stored up and haul it out when I go to Smashfests and things, and then play on CRTs at Smashfests and the like. I have yet to notice a difference in response times when switching. But yea, CRTs are the staple for competitive Smash.

 

[Paquito]

Yea. Some LCDs are actually just as good as a CRT. At my home I play on an LCD pretty much 100%... I have yet to notice a difference in response times when switching.

That's awesome. What LCD do you own? What would I look for if I'm shopping around for an LCD with a low delay?

 

[W.A.C.]

I use a 1080p monitor with a response time of 2ms. I assume whatever input lag is added is so minimal that it's not noticeable?

No-one responded to this. I'm rather curious if anyone here is able to notice a difference with a setup like that. The lack of post-processing with monitors probably reduces input lag a lot.

 

[mimgrim]

I know it's a SANSUI, but that's about it. It hooked to the wall and trying to put it back on is a pain so I don't know the model number. Also don't know what to tell you to look for specifically for a LCD, my LCD came with the RV.

 

[Narpas_sword]

No-one responded to this. I'm rather curious if anyone here is able to notice a difference with a setup like that. The lack of post-processing with monitors probably reduces input lag a lot.

look up your model and search for input lag to see if it's good or not.

That's awesome. What LCD do you own? What would I look for if I'm shopping around for an LCD with a low delay?

you look for a place to buy the top models tested here:
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag

salesmen are highly unlikely to know input lag values, as they're not specs listed by manufacturers.
That and salesmen want to sell you the highest ticket items, usually by throwing all the fancy processing features at you.

 

[W.A.C.]

look up your model and search for input lag to see if it's good or not.

Well, I assume the response time 2ms is supposed to represent the speed for input responsiveness? I largely was asking if there was any noticeable difference between a monitor like my LG Flatron W2361V monitor and a CRT in responsiveness. I've never noticed any input lag that was my monitor's fault (**** the PS3's terrible backwards compatibility) and I stopped using CRT TV's over five years ago, so I'm not the best judge of input lag difference between the two compared to some of the CRT enthusiasts here.

 

[Narpas_sword]

no, response time is different.

and none of us cn answer the feeling of difference because we dont play on your monitor.
Also people are unreliable as tests because of biases and placebo.

the only way to know is to get the monitors input lag measurement. if it's reasonable, you wont notice the difference.

 

[Kiddy_Dong]

If anyone is wondering what how much inupt lag is on their TV, there's a test you can do which will allow you to directly compare two images at the same time. You'll need a small CRT (cheap and easy to find), at least two standard RCA cables, and a female to 2x female Y-splitter for RCA jacks.

Set up the small CRT as close as possible to the TV you're comparing it to, then hook up the Wii/GC like normal except for the video cable (yellow one). Plug the video cable into the Y-splitter and attach the two RCA cables to the other ends of the splitter. Now plug one RCA cable into the video jack on the CRT, and the other into the comparison TV. If done correctly, you should see the image on both screens simultaneously.

Watch both screens at once; input lag will usually be obvious if it's there. Try messing around with menus and images that flash for large areas of the screen for best results. Games that have one frame flashes are even better (such as the flare after firing a gun in Goldeneye 64).

 

[NightKev]

If you want to use an LCD TV/Monitor for playing PM/Smash 4, a good resource is displaylag.com.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If you have 1 or less ms no one can notice that and if they John on it, slap them on the neck.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I have an HDTV and I got an Wii to HDMI convertor which help mediate some lag from the TV but not all. So I turn the Input Assist on and than it seems there is virtually no lag and me pressing the button and the game response seems 1 to 1.

Now is that a viable option to practice with if I want to complete or will the Input assist just makes me play the game wrong?

 

[Eisen]

HDTVs reduce reaction time, more than anything. It skews how the game plays.

The worst is trying to play on an HDTV as a character like Lucas against a character like Sonic, Falcon, or Falco on Wi-Fi when the other player has a CRT or superior HDTV.