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Are perfect pivot tilts viable enough to use tilt stick instead of smash?

RODO

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Started trying it out but my main concern in not being able to utilize quick smash attacks in neutral to end stocks. It's already hard enough as is to end stocks so I'm wondering if any other pikachus have had any success with the tilt stick on.
 

CURRY

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Short answer, most people don't have perfect pivots down 100% of the time, so we don't try to take advantage of the tech.
I can't constantly PP. So I don't do it, so I don't bother with tilt cstick.
mmm, my Pikachu is a work in progress, lol. I still can't gimp very well, but that's what Pika excels at, so a lot of kills will come by being offstage. offstage = airborne = no smashes. So that's one thing that takes away reliance on smash c-stick.
Without smash cstick, you can still dash -> usmash, and our usmash is great.
I thought this was pretty cool, and sorry if I seem to take on an aggressive tone: Do you know about this? In Smash 4, you can press A+B at the same time to do a smash attack. My main concern with tilt cstick was not being able to do foxtrot fsmash, but with the A+B thing, that option opened up for tilt cstick users (And 3DS users lol). You can also smash JC throw (kinda useless) among other things using the A+B.

So you can do a mobile usmash and fsmash. a sliding dsmash is taken away, but... in what situation would you do that? You can crawl -> dsmash I guess, lol. The thing with crawl/crouch no longer making you dtilt when you input cstick down was stupid T__T
 
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Blasiancoolio

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I'm not sure about pikachu, but I know a sheik player that employs c stick tilts to great effect. Me personally, I find being able to quick smash more important for my characters than tilts, but I'm a smash heavy player (very bad habit)
 

busken

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imo pp is barely viable, and is too character specific to be a game play defining tech; it was over hyped. Although it provides quick spacing to evoke grounded tilt pressure, or space yourself after a short hop most of the cast can't really use it to advance their game play and the same holds true for pikachu. For c-stick tilts or smashes, just see what's more comfortable for you, and how you can perform each one with the most input competence.
 

isaiah :)

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okay so i have been playing pikachu with tilt stick since the game came out, i can tell you, pikachu is better with tilt stick, however you have to put much more time in to becoming comfortable with the tilt stick. PP Up-tilt viable if spaced correctly, so no not viable without a lot of practice, but imo viable to me, but if you are just starting off then smash stick is fine.
 

RODO

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okay so i have been playing pikachu with tilt stick since the game came out, i can tell you, pikachu is better with tilt stick, however you have to put much more time in to becoming comfortable with the tilt stick. PP Up-tilt viable if spaced correctly, so no not viable without a lot of practice, but imo viable to me, but if you are just starting off then smash stick is fine.
I've been playing him for awhile and it seems like the next step in leveling up my game so I'm going for it.
 

Gibbs

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I think PP tilts (especially up and down tilts) will ultimately be necessary for Pika to survive/win in neutral at the highest levels of play, once the meta gets more optimized. However, at the current level of play the vast majority of players can't do a damn thing against a Pika who abuses QA in any way that's not brain dead. The practice effort to reward ratio for PP tech isn't great at the moment. I would only recommend putting serious time into it if either you're bored enough with your solo pika practice that you need some variety in order to stay motivated or the rest of you're pika fundamentals (jab lock setups/execution, basic QA stuff, QAC/QALC, various gimping techniques, throw and up-tilts combos) are so polished that effort/reward ratio is now favorable. You're probably only in the latter scenario if you're a consistent deep threat at your weeklies, or if your name is ESAM.

One thing that's nice is that practicing PP's is easy to do while waiting for matches online in person. The mechanic requires no setup and is even brainless enough that you can practice one handed while having a conversation or half watching TV. Incorporating the tech into your game-play however, I find incredibly difficult. It's easy enough to pull off the 3 frame timing of PP's in training mode or against CPU's, but against skilled human opponents you need to be incredibly confident in your execution. For instance it is very easy for a retreating PP d-tilt to flub into a dash attack. So what was supposed to be a safe spacing tool and poke, turns into a huge and very punishable commitment that moves you in the direction opposite from what you intended. Compare this risk to the risk of flubbing a normal pivot grab, maybe you pivot tilt instead, hardly the end of the world.

But if you're planning on being a Hax-achu and risky frame perfect inputs don't scare you at all, then PP opens up a crazy amount of cool options for Pika. Dash dancing hasn't gotten much attention in sm4sh since a week or two after release people were calling it near useless as a spacing tool due to the fixed dash length. I think that people wrote off dash dancing much too early. Incorporating the ability to PP tilt out of a dash dance or fox trot gives pika incredible mix up potential and speed. One of my favorite options choosing PP dtilt in place of the retreating dash of a DD. Many shiek's and falcons have tried to dash grab or dash attack my retreating chu only to get hit with a dtilt jab lock or trip set up. The main reason you're going to learn to PP is probably going to be PP uptilt. Dealing with fast characters who can play a strong keep out and spacing game against pika (here's looking at you shiek) and with players who have downloaded your QA and T-jolt habits, PP up-tilt is one of your strongest tools in neutral. When an opponent respects pika's uptilt, it can be near impossible to land a raw up-tilt except as a punish tool. But the extra range that is gained from PP'ing (plus the fact that when you PP towards an opponent you'll hit with u-tilt's faster and more combo friendly rear hitbox) adds enough utility to the move that it becomes a valid aggressive option in neutral.

One other great use of PP comes in the form of PP shield. Now this doesn't require tilt controls to perform, so it's not super relevant to the thread at hand, but I think it's cool enough that it should be stated. One of the reasons pika is so easy to box out is because pika has horrible range OOS. If you notice a character like Ness trying to zone you out with well spaced SH fair's on shield, try a PP before you shield if you can read the jump. This spacing option should net you a lot more shield grabs and free hits with nair OOS. It's also great to punish landings.
 

JayWon

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I thought it was the norm to set tilt stick to Attack on Smash 4 cuz it doesn't stop aerial momentum.
 

Pikabunz

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Just tried it, and it didn't seem to...
It does. It's more noticeable if you hold the c-stick in a direction and try moving with the control stick. You can't move at all as long as the c-stick is held.
 

busken

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Well I play with Smash stick and i flick the c-stick and i can completely control my momentum. Also @ Gibbs Gibbs love your post man hope u keep contributing.
 

JayWon

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whatever is your preference is your preference~

but facts are facts~ Aerial momentum is not pure with Smash stick even with the quickest of flicks. When you tap hard of course you can definitely see the momentum stop but no matter how fast you lightly flick, it literally for a fact does affect momentum though you may subjectively feel like it doesn't. Tilt sticking for aerials without a doubt gives preciser control with true uninterrupted momentum. Pretty much every top player pros change their c-stick to attack. I personally recommend it, but no one is forcing you too~
 
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Gibbs

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Well I play with Smash stick and i flick the c-stick and i can completely control my momentum. Also @ Gibbs Gibbs love your post man hope u keep contributing.
Thanks for the love. I've been stalking the pika boards for months and am just getting active now. Take my post on perfect pivoting with a massive grain of salt though. I love digging into frame data and theory crafting, but sm4sh is the first smash or fighting game I've ever tried to get even remotely competitive in and my sloppy pika is very much a work in progress. I mean the main reason I started using tilt controls on the Wii U was because I had a lot of trouble consistently inputting tilts as a week one scrub.

That said. I've spent a lot of time grinding PPs in order to get the inputs consistent for various tech, only to find out at my weeklys that my neutral and match up experience wasn't nearly developed enough take advantage of the micro spacing and mind games that perfect pivoting allows. Now that I've started focusing my practice on more bread and butter pika stuff and getting match-up knowledge I'm improving much faster. As of right now I flub about 1/10 of my perfect pivots attempts as opposed to the 1/100 I had a couple of months ago, and I'm totally ok with that because I know the games I'm not losing my games in the space of a perfect pivot, but by doing stupid things on shield and by running into sonic f-smashes lol.
 

Kai_64

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whatever is your preference is your preference~

but facts are facts~ Aerial momentum is not pure with Smash stick even with the quickest of flicks. When you tap hard of course you can definitely see the momentum stop but no matter how fast you lightly flick, it literally for a fact does affect momentum though you may subjectively feel like it doesn't. Tilt sticking for aerials without a doubt gives preciser control with true uninterrupted momentum. Pretty much every top player pros change their c-stick to attack. I personally recommend it, but no one is forcing you too~
Honestly, If you flick the c-stick fast enough it's barely noticable. I have played with both smash and tilt stick, and honestly, accidentally N-airing with the c-stick is more annoying than the hardly noticeable aerial momentum loss.
 

JayWon

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Honestly, If you flick the c-stick fast enough it's barely noticable. I have played with both smash and tilt stick, and honestly, accidentally N-airing with the c-stick is more annoying than the hardly noticeable aerial momentum loss.

take what you will. Honestly, I don't honestly care what you honestly think but honestly, yeah flicking may not affect forward momentum much. But you are definitely not in absolute control and can't wiggle around in the air nearly as much.

Honestly, that is simply the undeniable fact and that is the primary purpose on what I wish to express.

Honestly, if you don't mind that's good for you and is your preference. If accidentally N-airing is annoying that is your preference. If it's hardly noticeable for you that is your preference.

Honestly, practicing so you no longer accidentally N-air is not unheard of. I honestly find walking and immediately being able to u-tilt/d-tilt very useful and walking backwards and f-tilt the other way easily very useful as well. That is my preference and I honestly don't care and wonder why i'm even bothering arguing facts over preference.
 

Gibbs

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I find that the momentum control offered by tilt controls are borderline nessecary for getting those shiek like fair strings. The ability to drift back or forward on start up really helps to avoid the reverse hitbox or your opponent falling out.
 

Kai_64

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take what you will. Honestly, I don't honestly care what you honestly think but honestly, yeah flicking may not affect forward momentum much. But you are definitely not in absolute control and can't wiggle around in the air nearly as much.

Honestly, that is simply the undeniable fact and that is the primary purpose on what I wish to express.

Honestly, if you don't mind that's good for you and is your preference. If accidentally N-airing is annoying that is your preference. If it's hardly noticeable for you that is your preference.

Honestly, practicing so you no longer accidentally N-air is not unheard of. I honestly find walking and immediately being able to u-tilt/d-tilt very useful and walking backwards and f-tilt the other way easily very useful as well. That is my preference and I honestly don't care and wonder why i'm even bothering arguing facts over preference.
Lolol ok
 
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