Suntan Luigi
Smash Lord
"You see, their morals, their code...it's a bad joke, dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these...These civilized people...they'll eat each other."
-Joker from the Dark Knight movie
Since I watched the Dark Knight, I wondered about whether what the Joker was saying would be true in real life. Are people willing to break their own moral codes when the going gets rough? Will normal, everyday people turn into thieves and even murderers under exceptional circumstances?
Think about if the two boat experiment actually happened in real life. What if such a situation were to occur where one boat full of civilians and another boat full of convicts were wired with explosives, and each was given the detonator to the other boat's bomb. They are told that one has to blow the other up within one hour otherwise both boats will be blown up.
In the movie of course, neither boat blows the other one up, and Batman stops the Joker. In reality, though, would this be the case? Would people really refrain from blowing each other up?
Also, from http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=105254142852644&v=info, here is a fascinating read on the Joker's thesis and how Batman's actions in the movie actually prove him to be correct.
"In the instant classic The Dark Knight, Batman and the Joker are portrayed as polar opposites. Batman does what he does out of pure altruism and the Joker does what he does to prove his thesis (and because he just enjoys it). The Joker's thesis is that people are only good when it is convenient to be. This was the main thrust of all of his actions, most notably the experiment with the two boats. Throughout the film this theme of Batman and the Joker as the complete antithesis of each other is developed. Batman's actions, however, do not bear this theme out.
Batman is portrayed as operating under the idea that doing the right thing is moral and will work all of the time. This is why he refuses to kill. This idea is in total opposition to The Joker's thesis. When push comes to shove, however, Batman tortures The Joker and wiretaps all of Gotham's citizens to get the information he needs to save Rachel and find The Joker. Whether wiretapping is wrong is too involved an issue to address here. Whether or not it is objectively immoral is immaterial for this discussion. Batman and his associates acknowledge that they believe it to be immoral. Thus, whether wiretapping is wrong or not they have done something that they believe to be wrong.
Although Batman's actions claim to be a rebuttal to The Joker's thesis, that people are only moral when it is convenient, in actuality he proves him right. As long as he is only fighting relatively mundane organized crime and petty criminals Batman is happy to stay within the limits of his code of ethics. However, when confronted with a rival able to truly challenge him he easily breaks this code to catch The Joker. The same goes for Lucius Fox. After his tirade about the immorality of Batman's wiretap imager he relents and agrees to help him use it "just one time." The Joker himself could not have asked for better proof. Gotham's most altruistic citizen is himself only moral when it is easy to be.
Another theme of The Dark Knight is the juxtaposition of Harvey Dent, as Gotham's white knight, with Batman, as Gotham's dark knight. Harvey is initially successful, working within the law he begins to make significant progress. He is haled as a hero who does not need a cowl to save Gotham. Ultimately, however, he goes insane and begins to slaughter people; first the guilty and then the innocent (who are saved by Batman's intervention).
Batman is portrayed as a less morally clear-cut figure. He bends the rules of morality and does whatever he feels is necessary to save lives. In fact, Batman and The Joker could be thought of as two sides of the same coin.
Thus, although one of the movie's major themes is that people can and will do what is right no matter what and it will turn out better than total utilitarianism, the message that is brought home by the actions of the characters is that although morality is nice, sometimes it must be circumvented in order to save the world.
The White Knight, the one who follows the rules and stays within the bounds of his morality is driven insane and becomes a murderer; The Dark Knight, the one who bends the rules and steps outside of his ethics whenever he sees fit becomes the true hero who shoulders the burden of The White Knight's crimes.
The Joker must be laughing in his cell."
-Joker from the Dark Knight movie
Since I watched the Dark Knight, I wondered about whether what the Joker was saying would be true in real life. Are people willing to break their own moral codes when the going gets rough? Will normal, everyday people turn into thieves and even murderers under exceptional circumstances?
Think about if the two boat experiment actually happened in real life. What if such a situation were to occur where one boat full of civilians and another boat full of convicts were wired with explosives, and each was given the detonator to the other boat's bomb. They are told that one has to blow the other up within one hour otherwise both boats will be blown up.
In the movie of course, neither boat blows the other one up, and Batman stops the Joker. In reality, though, would this be the case? Would people really refrain from blowing each other up?
Also, from http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=105254142852644&v=info, here is a fascinating read on the Joker's thesis and how Batman's actions in the movie actually prove him to be correct.
"In the instant classic The Dark Knight, Batman and the Joker are portrayed as polar opposites. Batman does what he does out of pure altruism and the Joker does what he does to prove his thesis (and because he just enjoys it). The Joker's thesis is that people are only good when it is convenient to be. This was the main thrust of all of his actions, most notably the experiment with the two boats. Throughout the film this theme of Batman and the Joker as the complete antithesis of each other is developed. Batman's actions, however, do not bear this theme out.
Batman is portrayed as operating under the idea that doing the right thing is moral and will work all of the time. This is why he refuses to kill. This idea is in total opposition to The Joker's thesis. When push comes to shove, however, Batman tortures The Joker and wiretaps all of Gotham's citizens to get the information he needs to save Rachel and find The Joker. Whether wiretapping is wrong is too involved an issue to address here. Whether or not it is objectively immoral is immaterial for this discussion. Batman and his associates acknowledge that they believe it to be immoral. Thus, whether wiretapping is wrong or not they have done something that they believe to be wrong.
Although Batman's actions claim to be a rebuttal to The Joker's thesis, that people are only moral when it is convenient, in actuality he proves him right. As long as he is only fighting relatively mundane organized crime and petty criminals Batman is happy to stay within the limits of his code of ethics. However, when confronted with a rival able to truly challenge him he easily breaks this code to catch The Joker. The same goes for Lucius Fox. After his tirade about the immorality of Batman's wiretap imager he relents and agrees to help him use it "just one time." The Joker himself could not have asked for better proof. Gotham's most altruistic citizen is himself only moral when it is easy to be.
Another theme of The Dark Knight is the juxtaposition of Harvey Dent, as Gotham's white knight, with Batman, as Gotham's dark knight. Harvey is initially successful, working within the law he begins to make significant progress. He is haled as a hero who does not need a cowl to save Gotham. Ultimately, however, he goes insane and begins to slaughter people; first the guilty and then the innocent (who are saved by Batman's intervention).
Batman is portrayed as a less morally clear-cut figure. He bends the rules of morality and does whatever he feels is necessary to save lives. In fact, Batman and The Joker could be thought of as two sides of the same coin.
Thus, although one of the movie's major themes is that people can and will do what is right no matter what and it will turn out better than total utilitarianism, the message that is brought home by the actions of the characters is that although morality is nice, sometimes it must be circumvented in order to save the world.
The White Knight, the one who follows the rules and stays within the bounds of his morality is driven insane and becomes a murderer; The Dark Knight, the one who bends the rules and steps outside of his ethics whenever he sees fit becomes the true hero who shoulders the burden of The White Knight's crimes.
The Joker must be laughing in his cell."
