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Are our players afraid of commitment?

κomıc

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3 stocks takes me back to that stream I watched between a G&W and Peach that felt like took 500 years to finish. I was playing Battle Trozei and forgot what set they were in. A time out happened, I think. It was with Tatsumaki(?) and some other guy.

But even 2 stocks aren't safe from time outs.

Personally, I like 2 stocks for Smash 4 singles and 3 for doubles (obvious reasons). Imo and from experience, I think people try much harder in Smash 4 when you only have two lives to live off from where in 3 stocks I've seen it be more relaxed. But it really is a case-by-case scenario.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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2-stocks is too short. Think about Street Fighter. Why is it that rounds end in 10-15 seconds in SF2 but take longer in Alpha 2, Alpha 3, SF3, and SF4? Longer lifebars, more time to comeback. The matches are more interesting and you have time to adapt.

Secondly, I call it a "committed dash" for that very reason. Many times I have attempted a dash-shield and got punished because I couldn't get the shield up in time. It's a pain, but taking time. I'm still learning my walk and pivot game.
 

SuaveChaser

Smash Journeyman
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2 stocks feels perfect for smash 4. I hope it stays that way. Timeouts will happen no matter what the stock count.
 

⑨ball

Smash Ace
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2 stocks work for the same reason time and timeouts work: The more defensive options you are given in a fighter, the harder and less rewarding the approach will be.

This is the reality of a series that has consistently gotten better and better defensive options.

@ T0MMY T0MMY that Captain Falcon story was certainly whimsical and dramatic, but trying to imply that the Jigglypuff shouldn't have won on time or that the Cpt. deserved a second chance at victory due to "skill" which apparently didn't apply to keeping their percent down is ludicrous.

Furthermore time is actually an incentive to approach, as both players have a clear understanding of the % win rule. Where as without time, players have almost no reason to be the aggressor ever, as the player defending will pretty much always be in an advantageous position. You can see this often in matches with Chudat's project M Kirby.
Without time and the percent rule this will lead to two players who sit around waiting for the other player to give up their options--unless of course the TO notices this and decides this is stalling, but then who is decided is stalling and why?

Lastly sudden death as a solution to timeouts is a horrible idea. Not only are the dropping bob-ombs random and uncompetitive, the percent hike can be extremely disfavorable in multiple MUs rather than a neutral opportunity for both players. Lastly, there's no reason what-so-ever to assume it would stem timeouts. If anything it would encourage them even more as a player that has made it extremely difficult for himself to win can even the odds by waiting out Sudden Death.

With time and the percent win rule we have clear definitions of the way matches should progress in a way that can fairly assess the skills of respective players with as little random elements as possible. This also loops back around to what @ Big-Cat Big-Cat stated about commitment and 2 stocks. We know very well that Smash Bros as a series has gotten stronger and stronger defensive options. Hell, most approaches in tournament for Smash 4 are dash into shield. We know that committing to an attack is obviously worse than committing to defense, but with 2 stocks and 5 minutes anything could turn the tide of a game and with our current ruleset and the new rage mechanic, anything will.
 

T0MMY

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@ T0MMY T0MMY that Captain Falcon story was certainly whimsical and dramatic, but trying to imply that the Jigglypuff shouldn't have won on time or that the Cpt. deserved a second chance at victory due to "skill" which apparently didn't apply to keeping their percent down is ludicrous.
I believe you missed the moral of that story entirely: The game itself decides what happens; competitions should not be based on our subjective opinion of who is "winning".
Captain Falcon knows this.

Furthermore time is actually an incentive to approach, as both players have a clear understanding of the % win rule. Where as without time, players have almost no reason to be the aggressor ever, as the player defending will pretty much always be in an advantageous position.
The entirety of Smash 64 says otherwise.

Without time and the percent rule this will lead to two players who sit around waiting for the other player to give up their options--unless of course the TO notices this and decides this is stalling, but then who is decided is stalling and why?
I've actually run tourneys without time and this does not happen. Just saying the sky is falling doesn't mean it is true.

Lastly sudden death as a solution to timeouts is a horrible idea. Not only are the dropping bob-ombs random and uncompetitive, the percent hike can be extremely disfavorable in multiple MUs rather than a neutral opportunity for both players.
I'm going to analyze this:

You started with a conclusion first: Sudden Death as a solution to timeouts is a horrible idea.
To support this your first premise was: Bob-ombs are random and uncompetitive.
Second premise was: Percent hike can be disfavorable rather than neutral

Usually I see starting with a conclusion and then trying to find reason to support it is actually a weak position. I find it to be a stronger position to have clues that lead to a conclusion. To illustrate this, think of a detective trying to solve a case of murder - a proper detective does not first make an accusation of murder without any evidence! No, they look at the evidence - this leads to evidential proof in which a murderer will be unable to deny their actions because all reasonable doubt has been removed. Deductive logic, it's elementary!

Regardless, I will proceed and draw my own conclusions based on the evidence being put forth.
Before doing so I must stress that fallacy will destroy an argument and render it illogical - thus a weak argument to be replaced by a stronger argument.

What we have here is a "suspect" - Sudden Death.
Sudden Death has been accused of beign a "horrible" solution to timeouts.
But first we have to ask why there needs to be a solution to timeouts at all?
This is what is called leading. We have already been lead to assume that there is a problem and that timeouts is the problem. Next is declaration that Sudden Death is "horrible".
Sorry, but this is the exact reverse of how logic should progress.

However, just to see how far this rabbit hole goes, we'll assume there is a "problem" and that Sudden Death is "horrible".
In order to progress much further a complete examination is required:

  • How is Sudden Death "uncompetitive" (please define "competitive" as it is being used).
  • What is the point in describing the bob-ombs as "random"?
  • What is the point of how % is disfavorable MUs?

Lastly, there's no reason what-so-ever to assume it would stem timeouts. If anything it would encourage them even more as a player that has made it extremely difficult for himself to win can even the odds by waiting out Sudden Death.
This is a double-standard. To say that there's no reason to assume it could be a solution to a supposed timeout problem and then go and assume the opposite (bias) that it would encourage a player to "wait out". This is laudable to assume a player can just "wait" for time to run out without their opponent taking actions to end their stock and win the game. That would not only be unusual in a competition but has not and in all practical cases would not happen. Set aside the double standard and see this assumption for what it is.

With time and the percent win rule we have clear definitions of the way matches should progress in a way that can fairly assess the skills of respective players with as little random elements as possible.
If it is so clearly defined, then what happens when time runs out and both players have the same damage percent?
 

Rango the Mercenary

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"If it is so clearly defined, then what happens when time runs out and both players have the same damage percent?"

I think a 1-stock, 3-minute battle would be fair. I'm partial to working it out in Sudden Death, but I know that won't happen.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
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It seems like one of those tradition thingies. If, years ago, the competitive Smash community had decided to play out Sudden Death, and then someone were to come along and say "Hey, instead of Sudden Death, we should give the victory to whoever has lower percent when time runs out!" people would think he's insane, I imagine. But it's now so ingrained in the community that it's hard to get anyone to even consider changing.

Same with starters/counterpicks, when I believe the suggested "all legal stages are starters and we do full list striking" sounds so much better.
 

⑨ball

Smash Ace
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I believe you missed the moral of that story entirely: The game itself decides what happens; competitions should not be based on our subjective opinion of who is "winning".
Captain Falcon knows this.
Our "subjective opinion" has been the guiding instrument of competitive Smash Bros. since competitive smash bros was a thing. Whether it was deciding stocks, no items, stage bans, tactics bans, limits, ect.

Why should it be invalid in this one case?

The entirety of Smash 64 says otherwise.
The entirety of Smash 64 was an immensely more rewarding for aggressive play. L-cancelling that cut all lag? Shield break combos? 0-Deaths?

Smash 64=/=Smash 4

I've actually run tourneys without time and this does not happen. Just saying the sky is falling doesn't mean it is true.
I've actually run tourney where Jesus showed up and sprinkled magic on everyone gathered. Whoops, looks like anyone can say anything unevidenced to support their point! Meanwhile in case you missed it, here's the Chudat video again along with a few other ones where players in advantageous positions stay in them because if you're playing to win why would you ever need to leave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T98uKLWpl9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hagQotGGmqk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzXR3W-f2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbJj2kPF28


-Detective blah blah blah-
The problem with your analogy is that you're assuming there's no evidence that Sudden Death would be horrible. We as a community have already established things we find to be uncompetitive . Sudden Death falls right under that because we know that bob-ombs are random. No one wants a winner to be decided by luck. If that was the case, there'd be no reason not to have all items on or for Project M to leave tripping in.

What we have here is a "suspect" - Sudden Death.
Sudden Death has been accused of beign a "horrible" solution to timeouts.
But first we have to ask why there needs to be a solution to timeouts at all?
There doesn't imo. You were the one who stated you were against the % win rule. The two are kind of inseparable.

  • How is Sudden Death "uncompetitive" (please define "competitive" as it is being used).
  • What is the point in describing the bob-ombs as "random"?
  • What is the point of how % is disfavorable MUs?
Does "promoting contests skill with as little outside or uncontrollable factors as possible" work for you?
Why wouldn't we describe something random as random especially if we're attempting to avoid as much of it as possible?
If your intent with Sudden Death as an alternative to % wins is an equal contest, then it falls short in the equal department.

This is a double-standard. To say that there's no reason to assume it could be a solution to a supposed timeout problem and then go and assume the opposite (bias) that it would encourage a player to "wait out".
If you have some reason to assume it would that's not as long and ridiculous as your Captain Falcon fan fiction, I'd love to hear it. I don't mind being proven wrong on the matter, but I don't see a problem with the % win rule to begin with.

It's not so much bias as it is reasoning. We already know that players are fully willing to use time to their advantage to win? What reason do we have to assume a player wouldn't also use Sudden Death as a tactic?

This is laudable to assume a player can just "wait" for time to run out without their opponent taking actions to end their stock and win the game. That would not only be unusual in a competition but has not and in all practical cases would not happen. Set aside the double standard and see this assumption for what it is.

If this is the case there should be no issue with the percent ruling?

How in the world would it be unusual? You do realize that if time ends and the percent ruling is removed, sudden death will be the next natural outcome, right?

Maybe I've misunderstood you, but you are arguing against the % win ruling and for sudden death as an alternative, yeah?

If it is so clearly defined, then what happens when time runs out and both players have the same damage percent?
That's up to each TO, but I'd assume it ends in a draw/pot split. Unfavorable, maybe, but certainly more preferable to letting the winner be decided in something like sudden death with the random elements of bob-ombs and skewed playing field of boosted percentages.
 
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ぱみゅ

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[snip]Percentage may be a subjective decision, but it's the only one that doesn't represent a logistics issue, doesn't require to be strictly monitored, is not random, and uses an objective value. At least the only one as for now.[/snip]
 
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mmik

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I played 3 stock in melee. In ssb4 it just feels so long of a match and playing the whole thing through sometimes gets downright tiresome. I feel like 2 lives is enough to see what you can do.
 

YELLO

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two stock is fine with me, I however loathe the time being so short
 

Big-Cat

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Focus on this for now.

The increased lag on aerials has been a big issue for some. You can't approach with aerials as much as you could in previous games. There's more of a commitment to them this time around. If you want to auto-cancel your aerials, you have to do them within a certain time frame. This makes sense. Good balance should be where certain options are not too versatile and outperform other options entirely. Some people seem like they're afraid to go for the ground approach as an alternative. At worst, you see a LOT of rolling because it's "safe" in comparison to walking or running.

Speaking of running, this is another thing I see popping up. People are still adapting to the fact that running requires more of a commitment than ever. This is made worse by the fact that most people go for running over walking in just about any situation simply because one is faster. People look for any kind of micromovement AT out of running and you've got things like perfect pivoting which I don't think will go very far.
I'd say this is more important for the metagame then stock and time limits.
 

TheReflexWonder

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2-stocks is too short. Think about Street Fighter. Why is it that rounds end in 10-15 seconds in SF2 but take longer in Alpha 2, Alpha 3, SF3, and SF4? Longer lifebars, more time to comeback. The matches are more interesting and you have time to adapt.
Well, Super Turbo has ridiculous tick setups and touch-of-death bits that make one mistake really bite. The offensive skew has changed significantly; air recoveries and quick rises in Alpha, parrying and EX moves in Third Strike, backdashes, Ultras, delayed wake-up, and Focus Attacks in Ultra make it less of an "if X, Y" situation for a victory formula (especially Alpha, which outside of A-Groove can be pretty slow-going in many important matchups).

The same could be said for the progression in Smash. Melee had stronger shield pressure and ledge mechanics that favored offense. Brawl had a significantly safer shield, better air mobility/landing options, and much higher applicable invincibility frames. Smash 4 has better rolls, stronger recoveries on average, and generally a ton of new ways to get back to neutral.

It's less about having more time to come back and more about being harder to mount relentless pressure. Brawl and Smash 4 make it incredibly easy to go back to neutral, thus putting a halt to significant pressure every one or two hits. Even if you're a significantly better player than your opponent, it can be hard to steamroll them in a short amount of time if they play their defensive game even fairly well.
 
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