Are Helpless Falls even necessary

[GothicSlenderman]

One thing I've been thinking about for a good while now is helpless falls and honestly how unnecessary they are.

I get it. You can't have people just spam their up special with no risk but wouldn't it be better to just limit the times you can use it in the air and that's it?

Doing so could potentially-
-Make it easier to defend against edgegaurding
-Expand on what edgeguarding can do.
-Let you use your double jump after an upspecial if you haven't used it already.
-Expand air combos
-Help heavier fighters defend themselves while trying to recover

All while still having the same limits to each recovery option but no longer making them dependent on each other.

What do you guys think?

 

[Quillion]

It does seem like helpless falls are an archaic solution to a problem that's been solved since ~Brawl it seems (considering Sonic's up-B).

Now I actively support a lot of things from the early days being kept around, but I can live with helpless falls going.

 

[Amaterachu1]

Largely depends on how strong recovering already is in the specified game

 

[Quillion]

Largely depends on how strong recovering already is in the specified game

I think that should be addressed by making ledge grab boxes way less lenient. They can keep turnaround ledge grab (given how much it helps with making offstage interceptions more viable and easier), but make "magnet hands" far weaker.

 

[Janx_uwu]

I think they should adapt depending on the situation.

You tried coming back to stage and you're just short of it? You get to attack/airdodge still.
You tried KO'ing someone with a Shoryu-like Up-B and it whiffs? You go into special fall.

 

[Amaterachu1]

Yes and no. There's a lot more to recovering back stage than just grabbing ledge. Things like DI, momentum canceling in Brawl (and PTE), aerial drift speed of certain characters, is directional air dodging a thing [how fast or slow is it, how much distance does it cover, does it provide invulnerability], does grabbing ledge make you invincible, and other mechanics techs and interactions that can vary dramatically across multiple games.

In the lens of a PTE super duper mega-pro player top 3 of all 9 players, having helpless falls removed is just yet another buff to the already strong recovery capabilities of the game.

Spoiler: If you care; PTE Recoveries are broken summary

• Momentum canceling with aerials or signatures
• don't need to use up special last, can use a jump after a helpless fall move
• Once hit, you get out of helpless fall status and can use up special/etc. again and regain all jumps
  • This is especially unecessarily helpful for characters with multiple jumps, who already have a good recovery
• Stalling capabilities with certain moves. Aku laser, Planet side sig
• There's a glitch where if you hold fast fall after some signature moves, you can jump again. This allows just about half of the cast to get infinite jumps.
• SSVI tech, basically Jiggylpuff rising pound but on a select few characters and on steroids
• And then most recoveries are already just very good even without having infinite jumps

The fact most of the cast can access a huge portion of these all at once just solidifies recovering potential as a major issue with the game. Having helpless falls, skimpy ledges, and lucikly, extremely oppressive attacks where the game is dominated by very good edge guarders helps to combat a lot of this, but it's still very significant. Dare I say the biggest problem with playing PTE

To answer the question of the thread, no. Helpless falls aren't completely necessary since it is one small aspect of a game that can be altered in a way the developer sees fit. It's one lego block of the whole entire build. This seems to be more of a personal question and the answer is that it depends on how it feels. Does it feel fair? Have there been many times where you felt robbed because of the helpless fall? How does this interweave with the other mechanics in the game and not just recovery potential? These are the questions to ask when formulating a platform fighter.

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(How do I quote lol. I meant to quote quillion)

 

[Veca Gorebyss]

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I love it.

seems more realistic.

I'm imagining a kind of upside down diddy kong blast gun haha.

seems like. he keeps. becoming worn down from each blowup. and just feels realistic. neat haha.

and um. yeah. gosh. up b movesets geared to include such a move.

done haha.



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[Quillion]

I think they should adapt depending on the situation.

You tried coming back to stage and you're just short of it? You get to attack/airdodge still.
You tried KO'ing someone with a Shoryu-like Up-B and it whiffs? You go into special fall.

Make that "aerial end lag" instead IMO. That would allow a sufficient window to be punished on-stage or off-stage. It could also be canceled by landing on a soft plat, making them more viable depending on the situation.

 

[Janx_uwu]

Oh yeah like Bayo's extra landing lag, that makes sense.