Are aerials less viable this time around? How will this affect the metagame?

[Zork]

I've been watching a few streams of top players playing the game on 3DS in For Glory and there's very little if any spacing and approaching with short hop aerials going on. It's most just dash attacking or grabbing. I've heard this is because aerials in general are now more laggy. I know for certain things like lagless lasers from Falco and Fox while short hopping cannot be done.

This is probably my biggest worry about the game right now. If the game just boils down to a lot of dash attacking/grabbing, since both options are fairly unsafe to just throw out vs good players, it might end up being a major campfest with no one willing to approach at higher levels. Taking away solid offensive options that also take skill to utilize effectively is never a good idea.

In previous Smash games a lot of characters could space safely with aerials and depending on how they hit shield, they couldn't be punished. There was legitimate shield pressure thanks to this. But I'm not seeing any of this currently in Smash 4. I hope I'm wrong but this the vibe I'm getting so far.

Edit:

This also might mean OOS aerial options are less viable.

Edit:

Of course it's too early to say for sure now. And in fact now that I've seen more games I am seeing more short hop aerials OOS and otherwise.

 

[Raijinken]

They don't seem "less" viable on their own, ground just finally seems equally viable. This will make the metagame better and more interesting if it's true, and will hopefully give room for some characters who are weak in the air to be viable in high skill play.

The issue with aerials in previous games were that, while they took some skill to utilize, they were extremely safe ways to approach, so it was rare for characters to approach from the ground. Even casual players know it's easier to change your mind if you're in midair and not caught dashing.

If the camping is an issue, Nintendo could increase shieldstun or shield drop time or the cooldown on dodges. Aerials do not need to be reverted to their dominance, though. They still have their uses in reads and offstage play.

 

[Senario]

They don't seem "less" viable on their own, ground just finally seems equally viable. This will make the metagame better and more interesting if it's true, and will hopefully give room for some characters who are weak in the air to be viable in high skill play.

The issue with aerials in previous games were that, while they took some skill to utilize, they were extremely safe ways to approach, so it was rare for characters to approach from the ground. Even casual players know it's easier to change your mind if you're in midair and not caught dashing.

If the camping is an issue, Nintendo could increase shieldstun or shield drop time or the cooldown on dodges. Aerials do not need to be reverted to their dominance, though. They still have their uses in reads and offstage play.

Ground game was always very viable though. Look at any techchase grabs or characters like marth. In general ground games had more than enough viability which then transitioned to air games once people got launched into the air.

I find it very odd how people forget the legitimate ground game in the previous games and tend to want to boil it down to "oh they are 100% in the air"

 

[LordVacation]

I hope not!
All I do is fly through the air and dash everywhere, lol.

 

[ferioku]

Threes nothing wrong with the aerial approaches, especially with characters such as Kirby and Sheik who have literally no lag in aerial's. A vast majority of characters have at least 1 lagless aerial and most of them seem to have good aerial aproaches.

 

[Raijinken]

Ground game was always very viable though. Look at any techchase grabs or characters like marth. In general ground games had more than enough viability which then transitioned to air games once people got launched into the air.

I find it very odd how people forget the legitimate ground game in the previous games and tend to want to boil it down to "oh they are 100% in the air"

Not that they were 100% in the air, but that they were probably 80% in the air during the neutral game, and unless you were a character with a rare good dash attack, that 20% was going for grabs or hard reads.

 

[Gameboi834]

I mean, my spikes as Mario seem pretty solid, although my Uairs are pretty sad

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

I think it has more to do with them not being fully comfortable with the controls yet. Once people master the controls we'll see some insane stuff.

 

[Khao]

This game makes me feel like offstage play is more important than ever. And you need aerials for that.

So I don't really think so.

 

[Donkey_Inferno]

I've been doing aerials like crazy with Mario and Pikachu in the demo so... But I've always been a dash attacker and grabber since 64.

 

[Captain Norris]

Offstage play is HUGE! And Spikes are really powerful this time around. On the main stage, sure, it isn't as viable. But as a whole they are still decent.

 

[LinkNIvy]

Less viable != Not viable

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I feel like they're MORE viable than Brawl, at least. Reason being is that characters have faster falling speeds. It's in this cool range where characters can perform an aerial in a short hop, complete it and then land right after.

Also there are some characters with crazy low landing lag on aerials. Sheik's forward aerial comes to mind, which has about the same landing lag as her forward aerial was in Melee when L-Cancelled.

But I'm really anal about vulnerability in the air, which is one of the reasons I mained Wolf in Brawl (ie. he's a fast faller, drifting slowly to the ground feels disgusting). So take my views with a mountain of salt.

 

[ChikoLad]

I feel that landing lag from aerials is much better balanced this time around. It seems really dependent on the moves in question. Mario, for example, can pretty much act right out of neutral and back aerials even when he touches the ground during them. Mega Man's forward and back aerials have little-moderate landing lag, his neutral aerial has none for obvious reasons, but his down and up aerial have noticeable landing lag, but it makes sense considering the moves are powerful.

 

[Senario]

Not that they were 100% in the air, but that they were probably 80% in the air during the neutral game, and unless you were a character with a rare good dash attack, that 20% was going for grabs or hard reads.

Still an exaggeration as both sheik and marth had useful ground games that transitioned into air games. You try short hopping 80% of the time and see how it works for you. Melee was more 40% ground 60% air. And that is fine, a lot of moves or combo setups start on the ground or take place on the ground for most of the duration. I still find it silly how many people think melee is just jumping around.

 

[HiFlo]

Offstage play is HUGE! And Spikes are really powerful this time around. On the main stage, sure, it isn't as viable. But as a whole they are still decent.

I'm looking forward to the offstage play in this game. And although the overall buff in character recoveries can certainly make stocks last longer, in other ways it will encourage people to take more risks in the offstage pursuit game. This could potentially make some really exciting exchanges in midair without the safety of being above the stage. I know when I would chase people down with F-air/D-air using Lucario and juuuust make it back to the stage after a K.O, it always made me feel like a boss.

 

[Raijinken]

Still an exaggeration as both sheik and marth had useful ground games that transitioned into air games. You try short hopping 80% of the time and see how it works for you. Melee was more 40% ground 60% air. And that is fine, a lot of moves or combo setups start on the ground or take place on the ground for most of the duration. I still find it silly how many people think melee is just jumping around.

Eh, fair enough. Either way, it does seem a bit more grounded now, which I find refreshing. There's also still a lot of room for offstage play (made easier since fastfalls are stopped by attacking now) and a lot of characters have good aerials. Remains to be seen which style will be dominant, but I hope it's not air just for the sake of freshness.

 

[SmashBro99]

The game has been out for a very short time, of course people are going to spam dash attacks as approaches LOL

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

On stream the other night M2K and ZeRo were saying that its hard to space properly with the 3DS controls as it is, and aerials require that precision more than anything. They pretty much said how I feel myself, that once we get the Wii U version it will be easier to space and we'll get a better feel for the game, aerials included.

Not that they are final authorities or anything, but its a sentiment I'm hearing on streams fairly regularly.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ground game was always very viable though. Look at any techchase grabs or characters like marth. In general ground games had more than enough viability which then transitioned to air games once people got launched into the air.

I find it very odd how people forget the legitimate ground game in the previous games and tend to want to boil it down to "oh they are 100% in the air"

Typically because the good ground games come from chaingrabbing instead of something more legitimate, like it is now.

The new balance is 100% necessary, unless you want everybody to be all sterile and have a good air game. How would you balance Mac between casual and hardcore play, without giving him good aerials? You can't.

 

[Senario]

Typically because the good ground games come from chaingrabbing instead of something more legitimate, like it is now.

The new balance is 100% necessary, unless you want everybody to be all sterile and have a good air game. How would you balance Mac between casual and hardcore play, without giving him good aerials? You can't.

I didnt know jab resets into down smashes or forward or uptilts were not legitimate. Grabbing isnt the only thing you can do. Dash attacks are good on a lot of characters. Fox can link his into up tilt and as with all ground combos they transition into the air. That is just how smash works. If it didnt have launching mechanics and functioned like a regular fighting game I would say ground game needs to be buffed. But as it is a solely ground based game is flawed unless you give the ground character silly high damage. To account for the fact they really cant follow up in the air.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Honestly I feel the air game in this game, from the demo so this is SUPER limited, but I think it's more spread out and diverse around the cast. Without L-canceling, aerials become drastically different even moreso than they already were, and now certain characters may be all ground based until offstage gimps. BUT, I don't think the aerial game is going to be nonexistent. I feel like they've accounted for that construed problem. However I believe the ground game did indeed receive significant buffs and changes.

 

[LancerStaff]

I didnt know jab resets into down smashes or forward or uptilts were not legitimate. Grabbing isnt the only thing you can do. Dash attacks are good on a lot of characters. Fox can link his into up tilt and as with all ground combos they transition into the air. That is just how smash works. If it didnt have launching mechanics and functioned like a regular fighting game I would say ground game needs to be buffed. But as it is a solely ground based game is flawed unless you give the ground character silly high damage. To account for the fact they really cant follow up in the air.

They're legitimate, but most characters with a "great" ground game up until this point were centered around chaingrabs.

All I've been hearing is that characters with a real ground game can actually use it instead of their airgame. And really, you know you have a problem when all but one of your top tiers has a great air game at worst. Why do you oppose balance?

 

[Senario]

They're legitimate, but most characters with a "great" ground game up until this point were centered around chaingrabs.

All I've been hearing is that characters with a real ground game can actually use it instead of their airgame. And really, you know you have a problem when all but one of your top tiers has a great air game at worst. Why do you oppose balance?

Lol assuming that I am against balance. The thing is air game will always be important in this game. And ground game is always going to be a setup for air game. I honestly think you need to understand the game better if you cant see that buffing ground game simply will result in needing more air game. Because everybody gets launched. Also you need to play the game more to realize the more grounded characters are not based only on chain grabs. Marth and sheik have amazing ground games and so does the rest of the top tier. They just transition into air like you are supposed to. This isnt street fighter where when you hit a person they stay more or less in the same place on the ground. They go FLYING.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lol assuming that I am against balance. The thing is air game will always be important in this game. And ground game is always going to be a setup for air game. I honestly think you need to understand the game better if you cant see that buffing ground game simply will result in needing more air game. Because everybody gets launched. Also you need to play the game more to realize the more grounded characters are not based only on chain grabs. Marth and sheik have amazing ground games and so does the rest of the top tier. They just transition into air like you are supposed to. This isnt street fighter where when you hit a person they stay more or less in the same place on the ground. They go FLYING.

Yes, air will always be important. But it shouldn't be as important as it's been. No, buffing ground doesn't directly mean you need a stronger air game, that's what you're not understanding. We've seen that we can still have your "hype combos" without having the air game be as strong as before, so I don't see why you're still complaining. Characters without an airgame realistically have a chance now. I'll take that over Melee any day.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I've been watching a few streams of top players playing the game on 3DS in For Glory and there's very little if any spacing and approaching with short hop aerials going on. It's most just dash attacking or grabbing. I've heard this is because aerials in general are now more laggy. I know for certain things like lagless lasers from Falco and Fox while short hopping cannot be done.

This is probably my biggest worry about the game right now. If the game just boils down to a lot of dash attacking/grabbing, since both options are fairly unsafe to just throw out vs good players, it might end up being a major campfest with no one willing to approach at higher levels. Taking away solid offensive options that also take skill to utilize effectively is never a good idea.

In previous Smash games a lot of characters could space safely with aerials and depending on how they hit shield, they couldn't be punished. There was legitimate shield pressure thanks to this. But I'm not seeing any of this currently in Smash 4. I hope I'm wrong but this the vibe I'm getting so far.

Edit:

This also might mean OOS aerial options are less viable.

Edit:

Of course it's too early to say for sure now. And in fact now that I've seen more games I am seeing more short hop aerials OOS and otherwise.

This post hurts my head.

Go to google. Type in footsies. Read stuff.

Thats what the metagame will be and i cant wait im so excited.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think it has more to do with them not being fully comfortable with the controls yet. Once people master the controls we'll see some insane stuff.

Also remember that the 3DS controls and lack of a C-stick can make it harder to precisely space aerials. It definitely takes more practice to effectively attack from the air, as it takes time to fully master the physics of the game as well as timing things like AC windows. Aerial attacks have traditionally been more effective overall because you have more control over your character's spacing in the air, but the downside is that it takes more practice to master said spacing.

 

[Renji64]

Aerials only seem decent for offstage with free recoverys and no ways to really edgehog offstage game is more important now. The aerial moves feel restrictive you can't play a character the way you want to.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Aerials only seem decent for offstage with free recoverys and no ways to really edgehog offstage game is more important now. The aerial moves feel restrictive you can't play a character the way you want to.

There is no way aerials are only good for offstage and nothing else. Aerial approaches are still plenty useful. While ground approaches have been buffed and there seem to be a decent number of good anti-aerials now, aerials are still very useful onstage both offensively and defensively. Ground combat is currently ahead right now, but in time aerials will catch up thanks to improved Smash Wii U controls and more time to refine aerial spacing. Some characters will be better off staying on the ground until they get a juggle/edgeguard opportunity, but there'll be a good number of characters who will be short-hopping around like they always have.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think, in the full game once I get my hands on it, I'll find that ground and air approaches will vary from character to character moreso than before. Approaching with aerials already works with certain characters(Mario for instance). It's just going to be variable and the ground game, while it does have more options, is not going to be super superior to the air game in the long haul, I feel.

 

[Zork]

This post hurts my head.

Go to google. Type in footsies. Read stuff.

Thats what the metagame will be and i cant wait im so excited.

I have a SF4 background, I'm well aware of what footsies are.

If you honestly don't see a problem with a Smash game with only dash attacking and shield grabbing as possible viable options, then you probably aren't aware of footsies as much as you think as they pertain to Smash. Smash has always been mainly about footsies in the neutral game so this isn't exclusive to Smash 4 anyway as you are implying.

But if you can only whiff punish with dash attacks and the occasional tilt because aerials aren't fast enough off the ground, that extremely limits the options most character's have for footsies. This is definitely not like what it used to be.

Also it's not just about footsies, it's about pressure and implied pressure. Imagine Street Fighter with no true blockstrings or even frame traps. Imagine if every move is unsafe if it's blocked including low forwards.

That's what a Smash game where spaced aerials being still very unsafe would end up being since it doesn't have typical fighting game pressure built in the mechanics. As a result the game would end up becoming very campy and defensive. You basically wait for the opponent to do something you can whiff punish with dash attacks/grabs, punish with shield grabs or just throw it out and risk being heavily punished yourself.

Edit: I do maintain that it's too early to say for sure and that point about the 3DS possibly limiting spacing capability was very valid.

 

[Zork]

Honestly I feel the air game in this game, from the demo so this is SUPER limited, but I think it's more spread out and diverse around the cast. Without L-canceling, aerials become drastically different even moreso than they already were, and now certain characters may be all ground based until offstage gimps. BUT, I don't think the aerial game is going to be nonexistent. I feel like they've accounted for that construed problem. However I believe the ground game did indeed receive significant buffs and changes.

What buffs did the ground game receive in particular? Other than faster dash speeds and no tripping? I do consider faster dash speeds to be very significant of course.

I feel like Melee's air game was solid because it had L-cancelling. Brawl's air game was solid thanks to auto-cancelling. But Smash 4 seems to have neither so the aerial games really suffers as approach/spacing/footsy tools.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ground game has pivot cancels, rolls are super better, dash grabs are better than Brawl, did I mention pivot cancels? Also this game has plenty of auto cancelling, I don't know where you got your info but two of BOWSER'S aerials autocancel, of all people, among other things such as Mario's Nair, Bair, the list goes on. Even Link's aerials feel improved.

 

[Zork]

They auto-cancel from short hops? Because I rarely have seen good Bowser's go for them at all so far.

But I hope you are right. That sounds really promising.

I guess the reason for lack of a lot of aerial play in neutral so far could possibly be streamers like Zero/Fow only facing mostly low level players where they don't need to bring that aspect out as much. That and the 3DS making it possibly harder to do properly.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Bowser's aerials(Fair and Bair) both autocancel from a short hop if you don't fastfall them. As far as landing lag, some don't autocancel but just have no lag whatsoever, like Sheik. It looks to me like it's more on a character by character basis.

 

[Zork]

I'll take your word for it then. Really wonder why Bowser's aren't aren't doing it though. I have seen Sheik utilize them. It probably is just a character by character thing as you said instead of something general.

Also I don't think rolls being better is a good thing. I think the risk/reward for rolls was perfect in previous games. It couldn't be used obviously or as a mobility option, but was useful when used sparingly at the right times.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Pivot Cancels are the response to rolls being so good. The mechanic seems designed around punishing someone who tries to roll behind you with a pivot tilt.

My greatest advice if you ever plan on playing this to like, a serious high level, is to go in open-minded. I know I can't, I can only look at it like that though

 

[Emblem Lord]

That term autocancel is very misleading. Also why would dash attacking and shield grabbing be the only viable options? that doesnt even make sense.

I'm not feeling inclined to even debate with you as it seems you have made up your mind on a game thats only a few days old.

 

[micstar615]

Seems to me like every character has at least one aerial with very low landing lag or one that can auto cancel. I don't mind a ground based game, but aerials are still an approach option, it just varies from character to character.

 

[Joe73191]

The air game is so different and slower because you don't maintain your momentum from dash to jump. As long as there is no momentum the air game will always be slower.