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Approaching safely

Strider755

Smash Journeyman
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OK, so I know what I need to work on next: approaching. I really don't know how to safely approach my opponent without eating an attack, but I really want to be able to overwhelm my opponent. I've always felt that the best defense is a good offense, and if I can keep my opponent on the ropes, I don't have to worry about getting hit back. The problem is putting him on the ropes.

Note: My characters are: Charizard, ZSS, Bowser, Ness, Mario, Shulk
 

1FC0

Smash Lord
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I suggest that you pick up R.O.B. and start camping because campers can be very offensive too if they use many projectiles to attack and this would lessen the burden of approaching for you.

But even with R.O.B. you might have to approach sometimes and in that case you should consider powershielding while walking.
 

Strider755

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I'm asking about approaching with the characters I have. I'm already trying to learn Mario and Shulk.
 

Dagon97

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I'm asking about approaching with the characters I have. I'm already trying to learn Mario and Shulk.
You need to respect your opponents offensive / defensive options to go in. This is VERY match up dependent, approaching is too broad of a term and specifics would be appreciated.
 

Flawlessh

Smash Cadet
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Apr 22, 2015
Messages
55
im just going to throw out a guess, but im assuming you are just throwing out moves while in the neutral.

Dont just randomly toss out moves at a medium distance away, expecially with slow characters like the ones u listed (zard, bowser) you will get punished everytime.
most of the time, the approaching player will be at the disadvantage (expecially for the characters u listed) just sit back and wait for them to approach you, or walk slowly up to them to put them in bad stage positioning, making them have to approach.

then wait. just pivot tilt,grab them as they approach, or shorthop nair.
 

Strider755

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Pretty much everyone. I got 6-stocked by Reflex's Ike last night, and I am still not happy about it. I don't care how good he is. I could not get hear him, and I couldn't defend either.

And what do I do if they won't approach me either? I don't like stare-downs.
 
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Flawlessh

Smash Cadet
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Apr 22, 2015
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And what do I do if they won't approach me either? I don't like stare-downs.
Like i said in my earilier post, walk up slowly to them and shield all there projectiles if they throw any. this will force them to back up or advance into you, where you can punish them with a tilt, grab, shield, or aerial. (depending on your characters best option)
 

Flawlessh

Smash Cadet
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Apr 22, 2015
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And how do I do that without them grabbing me?
play smart? in my last post i said, when they advance into you, you punish them with a tilt, grab, aerial. whatever your characters best option is.

so when they go in for the grab, run away and throw out a pivot grab / tilt. maybe jump out of range and nair em. maybe even (dont do this) roll behind em!
 

Thirtyfour

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To approach you have to chase. To space you have to feint and bait your approach. Movement is everything in the neutral. Really good projectiles force approaches. Really great moves can bypass the neutral like quick attack.

Zelda can space all she wants, but she can't approach well and has horrible movement.
Sheik can chase, space, and has great movement on the air and ground. Plus she has one of the best projectiles in the game.
Pikachu has all of the above and the quick attack.

For my characters..
Falcon has superb movement, a great dash grab, dash attack, and short hop approaches, and can space well due to his movement. He can make characters not use some of their options in the neutral like not throwing projectiles, or even jumping due to his speed.
Falco has decent movement, weak approaches with dash attack and grab, but superb spacing with his short hop aerials. He has a projectile that's great against characters with low mobility. His projectile combined with his side b and spacing makes his movement incredible in some match ups (DDD lol).
Marth has above average movement, okay approaches, and great spacing due to his short hop and sword pressure. He forces approaches due to his sword range and the fact that it's better to trade with his sourspot than his sword. This makes his match ups all over the place for me. I won't get into that though.

Anyway, what makes an approach isn't just a move. It's the set up of the move. The better the move, the less there is to set up. Hope this post helps. I'll be watching the thread for a bit in case you wanted actual approaches for your characters.
 

Thirtyfour

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Strider you sound like you're at the level where all you do is chase. I want you to learn how to set the pace of the match. When you start to get the hang of that then you will learn what the neutral is.

Next time you play someone vastly better than you I want you to realize when you're chasing mindlessly. Are you doing things like DIing into your opponent during recovery instead of retreating and changing the pace? If you have recent footage of you I'll help you out.
 

1FC0

Smash Lord
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I'm asking about approaching with the characters I have. I'm already trying to learn Mario and Shulk.
It's really hard to design products by focus groupsPick the right main (Hint: It is always R.O.B.). A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.
 
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pokelogan89

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As a Mario secondary, I have a few ways of approaching, and it depends on your matchup. If you are against non-projectile based characters, you can spam fireballs, force them to approach, and punish accordingly when they screw up. In this case, you can get off a grab, and doing what mario does best. However, when against characters such as Fox who can out-projectile Mario, its a little bit more difficult. Approaching with a dair is usually what I end of doing, and just trying to find an opening for a grab. Also, keep in mind against characters such as Samus, Link, and Wii Fit Trainer, you HAVE A SIDE B. Use it. This, again, will force them to approach as they cannot camp. Hope this helps.
 

piikaa

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you guys are delusional, you have to open with a dash attack
 

Baby_Sneak

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You guys just gave super specific examples when you should have gave him a guide so he has better knowledge on this subject.
Like this:
Building and Sustaining Momentum
Need Help with Intelligent Aggression
by Cunning Kitsune

I have actually recently been addressing this very issue within my own gameplay. Perhaps I may impart a few words of wisdom.

First off, the key to "intelligent aggression" in my eyes is the ability to create, build, and sustain one's momentum. While a rather abstract concept, momentum can best be envisioned as possessing control of a match and dictating the movement and flow of that match (as I stated, not the most concrete of definitions, really). A significant portion of this relies upon your ability both to read and to react to your opponent. Successfully anticipating your foe will allow you both to stay on top of him or her and to punish any openings. However, this approach requires a good deal of thought, instinct, and proper decisions on your part, all components of higher level play (to which "intelligent aggression" is a gateway, in my opinion).

What you are looking for is the ability to read, predict, and punish your opponents, which ties back in to the concept of momentum discussed above. The most I can tell you here is constantly to look for some of the most common openings in an opponent's game. As well, while on the offense, keep a sharp eye out for some of the most common efforts by your enemy to gain some breathing room. You should notice that all of these scenarios imply that you are on the offense, pursuing and attacking your opponent, while they are trying to find an answer to your aggression. One of the keys to "intelligent aggression," is the ability to find answers on the fly to your opponent's efforts to escape you; this will allow you to stay on top of them, to maintain your momentum, and to play intelligently while staying on the offense.

Technical aptitude is also very much required for a successful offensive game plan. If one wishes to maintain his or her momentum (and thus his or her smart, offensive play), one cannot afford to lose all momentum instantly by getting shield-grabbed, out-spaced while approaching, grabbed from a falling aerial without an L-cancel, etc. You will notice that in all of these scenarios, were the player to have complete technical control over his or her character, he or she would emerge unscathed thus maintaining control of the match (momentum) and protecting the integrity of the offense.

In short, then, the keys to a successful (read: smart) offense are both mental and technical aptitude. However, there is one more ingredient to the mix, and that is your own absence of fear. You can never allow yourself to become afraid of your enemy, or that you might get punished if you go in, or what have you. Sometimes you just have to go in there and take what you can get. If you connect, keep your momentum and stay on top of your foe, always on the look-out for those easy openings and attempts to gain some breathing room, and following (key word) as appropriate. If you miss and are punished, DI the upcoming hit or hits, make the proper teching and recovery decisions, and keep on going. No fear.

My note: Playing Smash for the last year has taught me to think in terms of frames not seconds, this is one of the biggest differences to any other fighting game in my opinion, 6 frames(1/10th of a second) can mean the difference between winning and losing a match. A seconds hesitation is Smash is a lot longer than in most other games.

King Kong - "Do you think the same theory can be applied to a defensive playstyle?"

Now, regarding your question, I do believe that the same theory overall can be applied to a defensive game; however, some slight modifications have to be made. For instance, instead of reading for attempts to escape, you instead would have to read for opposing attempts to approach. You would have to look for when and how your foe would choose to advance and counter accordingly

You would also need to anticipate what your more aggressive opponent will expect you to do and then react contrary to his expectations (here is where having the ability to switch between play styles is especially useful). In effect, you need to be able to reverse-engineer your opponent's mentalities while playing defensively; note, however, that this same concept can also be applied to the aggressive styles and, indeed, any instance of the mental game at all.
 
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LightLV

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Nov 17, 2014
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It's waaaaaaaaayy more simple than people are making it out to be. The simple answer is, you don't approach. Shield is too good, roll is too good, punishes are too weak.

Think about it.

Shiek? Needle camping, massive followups off grab (or anything). Combo confirm off projectile, kill confirm off projectile.
Mario? Fireball camping, massive followups off grab (or anything). Combo confirm off projectile, grab confirm off blocked fireball.
ZSS? Paralyzer camping, Zair camping, followups off grab. Anything confirm off projectile, including kill.
Luigi? Fireball camping, massive followups off grab (or anything). Combo/grab confirm off projectile, kill confirm off grab
Rosalina? Luma approaches for her and then you upair
Falcon? Grabs you from across the screen in 5 frames, throw confirms into endless kill setups

You get the picture.

When you HAVE to approach, when you HAVE to be unsafe, you're at a disadvantage, because if you get blocked, good characters are going to grab you and beat the **** out of you.

Name of Smash4 is "bait and punish", or, if you're one of the chosen ones, "throw out attacks and confirm into a combo once they run into your hitboxes"
 
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Aquatics

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with zss, depending on the MU fast fall nair is a good option, b-reverse paralyzer is good too. wait for them to mess up and punish with a grab. ummmmm basically throw out safe attacks until they mess up and then approach with her tools
 

HeavyLobster

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I'll go with characters I know, those being Bowser and Charizard. Neither one can really just rush in spamming SH aerials and expect to be safe, so you have to be patient when trying to create an opening. In particular you want to exert pressure safely in order to either bait them into doing something unsafe or back them into a corner where their options are more limited. You don't just run in with these characters generally, though you are trying to close space if they're projectile campers. You can go in for grabs once you've conditioned your opponent to shield through intelligent use of your pokes, but you need to pay attention to their habits and adjust accordingly. Mostly approaching with these characters means baits and exerting pressure in subtler ways than just running in and SHFFFairing shields like you're Sheik, because that doesn't work here.
 

Strider755

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I'll go with characters I know, those being Bowser and Charizard. Neither one can really just rush in spamming SH aerials and expect to be safe, so you have to be patient when trying to create an opening. In particular you want to exert pressure safely in order to either bait them into doing something unsafe or back them into a corner where their options are more limited. You don't just run in with these characters generally, though you are trying to close space if they're projectile campers. You can go in for grabs once you've conditioned your opponent to shield through intelligent use of your pokes, but you need to pay attention to their habits and adjust accordingly. Mostly approaching with these characters means baits and exerting pressure in subtler ways than just running in and SHFFFairing shields like you're Sheik, because that doesn't work here.
Thank you very much. I'll give these a try.
 

Baby_Sneak

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It's waaaaaaaaayy more simple than people are making it out to be. The simple answer is, you don't approach. Shield is too good, roll is too good, punishes are too weak.

Think about it.

Shiek? Needle camping, massive followups off grab (or anything). Combo confirm off projectile, kill confirm off projectile.
Mario? Fireball camping, massive followups off grab (or anything). Combo confirm off projectile, grab confirm off blocked fireball.
ZSS? Paralyzer camping, Zair camping, followups off grab. Anything confirm off projectile, including kill.
Luigi? Fireball camping, massive followups off grab (or anything). Combo/grab confirm off projectile, kill confirm off grab
Rosalina? Luma approaches for her and then you upair
Falcon? Grabs you from across the screen in 5 frames, throw confirms into endless kill setups

You get the picture.

When you HAVE to approach, when you HAVE to be unsafe, you're at a disadvantage, because if you get blocked, good characters are going to grab you and beat the **** out of you.

Name of Smash4 is "bait and punish", or, if you're one of the chosen ones, "throw out attacks and confirm into a combo once they run into your hitboxes"
None of those characters can reliably camp in all MUs except sheik, and they all approach very well.
Approaching by hitting a shield is a small facet of the whole picture as well.
 
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