Approaching Options

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

If you've played anyone half competent about melee and the rewards for being aggressive, you've noticed that when snake loses his spacing and control, the match goes downhill quickly.

Snakes approaching options are pretty limited, but not extremely void. Share your secrets on how you get your combos, stickies, spikes and Nikita kills, as well as getting and keeping momentum, and this thread will be turned into a compendium of each players personal advice and tactics for later review, so that we learn from one another and BLOW **** UP.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Reserved for future edits and videos.

 

[Professor Pro]

Hey Disqo Bunny, im one of the members of the PMBR and like the Snake main guy so i've been playing quite a lot of Snake in general and on LiveStreams (not enough on vids on youtube though lol) but I have a few matches which might give you a bigger insight to some of Snake approach options.

Me (Snake) vs Jolteon (Marth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svr3LxkbBho

This is one of Snake's harder MU from my experience but an approach which I don't see enough people using is Snake's DACUS, you'll see me use it a bit in this match.
Also at 2:21 an approach im trying to include in my gameplay more is his Rar'd Bair.

In terms of Sticky options the standard U-Throw to C4 Stick works on nearly all of the cast, but you can also get Up B to stick which is shown at 1:09.

Also here's another set if you want to check this one out

Me (Snake) vs Jolteon (Toon Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lm3g_M-c1U *last match is a 4 stock lol :D

I'm looking to get some more vids up soon though, not really happy with how I played in these matches and the matches where I did play good got corrupted on Jolteon's computer :/ hope to upload some good quality matches and get the Snake boards a bit more vibrant

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Thanks for replying Pro. I'll add your videos, and future videos to the upcoming archive, and as we go along, they'll get replaced with newer and better material.

Also, RAR bair is fantastic. Already incorporating brawl tactics to P:M myself. Even though I don't have videos, I have a lot of insight on this awful character of ours(the group here in Texas think I'm on par with you, but what the **** are they smoking?)
My videos to hopefully come soon.

 

[Professor Pro]

LOL Snake is far from awful, I honestly think he is a top contender in the cast and very underrated as a character.
His options just aren't as visibily obvious from the get-go, you should try and upload some time when you can though to get some more Snake vids up.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

LOL Snake is far from awful, I honestly think he is a top contender in the cast and very underrated as a character.
His options just aren't as visibily obvious from the get-go, you should try and upload some time when you can though to get some more Snake vids up.

I don't think he's awful, but I see he takes hard work, as his options and combos are limited due to explosives and lack of "Captain Falcon-like" gameplay. But these different options make him good at the same time. Double edged sword kind of. I like to say he's awful when I lose though :D

 

[Jonny Westside]

How do you guys feel about Snake's Nair?

 

[Translucent]

Up b into Nair is something that I seem to use a lot with snake when the opponent is in front of me to begin. It's got pretty good range, and overall Nair is useful for approaching when l canceled.

 

[Scythe]

I don't feel Snake necessarily has to approach at all. Just keep stage control in the middle and you can force opponents into mistakes. His pivot grab is pretty amazing and catches lots of melee players who aren't familiar with brawl tech.

 

[cannedbread]

^^^^

but if you really really have to approach, dacus, rar bair, dash attack while holding down will keep you prone. i like sh upb too. but i pretty much never approach with snake.

 

[Professor Pro]

I don't feel Snake necessarily has to approach at all. Just keep stage control in the middle and you can force opponents into mistakes. His pivot grab is pretty amazing and catches lots of melee players who aren't familiar with brawl tech.

I disagree with this statement heavily, Snake doesn't benefit from not approaching, his projectiles aren't fast enough to play that way like Toon Link can, everything can be shielded or dodge easily, you actually need to approach with Snake if you want to take advantage of his punish game which is great.

If anyone plays Snake effectively without approaching the whole match against a decent player, I would honestly like to see it lol.

 

[Jonny Westside]

Yeah approaching with RAR Bair is seriously good, I like to add a small tweek to that option by inputting an up B before I land followed by another Bair. If you manage to catch an airborne opponent with the first initial Bair you can combo that first Bair to the Up B and finally to the second Bair (or Uair), depending on percentage of course.

Spoiler

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Yeah approaching with RAR Bair is seriously good, I like to add a small tweek to that option by inputting an up B before I land followed by another Bair. If you manage to catch and airborne opponent with the first initial Bair you can combo that first Bair to the Up B and finally to the second Bair (or Uair), depending on percentage of course.

Spoiler

This is beautiful.

 

[cannedbread]

that is so cute what the ****

 

[Professor Pro]

I like that Full jump RAR Bair, definitely gonna try that out lol.

 

[bubbaking]

I disagree with this statement heavily, Snake doesn't benefit from not approaching, his projectiles aren't fast enough to play that way like Toon Link can, everything can be shielded or dodge easily, you actually need to approach with Snake if you want to take advantage of his punish game which is great.

If anyone plays Snake effectively without approaching the whole match against a decent player, I would honestly like to see it lol.

Actually, I'm not exactly going to disagree with you, but Snake CAN play for a good chunk of the match without approaching against anyone that isn't Falco, Pit, Link, TL, etc. If you place your mine and C4 in good places, you can camp it out with 'nades and Nikitas, especially now that Nikita has such little lag after dropping it. Usmash helps too. This strategy becomes even better with plats because plats tend to help Snake's defense when he has explosives placed on them. Don't get me wrong. I'm a pretty aggro Snake. I'd rather be up in your grill doing upB > aerials all day, but whenever I feel the need to back off and get some space (and I have the time and ability to do it), I can set up a pretty defensively strong area.

Simple exemplary set-up:

• Mine under or a little in front of the right lip of the left plat on PS2
• C4 on the plat

Snake can pretty much do set-ups like this or just as effectively as this using any plat. Once you've done this, it's a simple task to just chip at the enemy with 'nades and Nikitas and deter or set-up shield pressure on certain approaches with Mortar. If the opponent detonates the mine on the ground, you can always react to that fast enough to protect yourself and/or counterattack if you were spaced properly. Snake's C4 detonation is fast enough and has little enough lag to always make the C4 a severe threat. Likewise, the Nikita missile has low enough lag upon dropping it that, if positioned properly, he can usually get away with throwing it out, especially if has a good stage set-up to begin with. I remember Leelue used to do a bit of this when he would camp with Snake and it was hella annoying to get past.

Of course, if the opponent is any of the aforementioned characters, then he can just hit you out of anything you do, even inside your set-up. For this reason, I often used Pit as my counter against Snake. Arrow him out of anything he does from a range. Mirror the Nikita if it somehow gets to me through my arrows.

 

[Plum]

Toss a cooked grenade at them and chase the grenade in with whatever followup. Generally dropping the grenade, wavedash or whatever to pick it up, and throwing it will have it ready to blow in their face. It's good for forcing them to react to the grenade be it jumping over it, shielding it, side stepping it, wavedashing away from it or whatever. It's pretty easy to punish their reaction with a DACUS, RAR Bair, etc.

Won't work against characters that don't give you time to cook a grenade like Falco but I really like it against characters who give you some breathing room.

 

[humble]

Dash at your opponent, short hop, on your descent Cypher, once you have upward momentum while low to the ground cancel into Nair, the upward momentum means you'll hover for a bit allowing you to get off multiple hits of the Nair, your opponent has to wait in shield or eat foot. L-cancel the landing, immediately go into a crouch and try to shield poke them, they're unlikely to expect it, their shield will have worn down a bit due to having to have been held out during your Nair. If you think they'll try to shieldgrab your landing, their grab will probably whiff on your crouching hitbox anyway. If they drop their shield to attack, again, low profile, you'll crouch cancel it, you can poke their feet with your quick crouch attack.

Of course, this assumes you're given free range to approach a standing opponent who won't interrupt your approach and will react defensively. React as appropriate, if they dash toward as you shorthop in, feel free to Nair, or, something I've found useful, triangle dash down and back, suddenly they're approaching into you instead of the other way around, and Snake has much better options in that situation.

Specifically timed, cypher float aerials though are gimmicky, don't rely on them too much. Ultimately what you need to do is approach to mid/close range, and apply pressure, you aren't Fox sex kicking your way in at high speeds, what you want to do is get to an effective range and play footsies, you've got a lot of powerful tools to punish, a lot of great close quarter tools once the gap is breached, so bait them out and punish. One thing I like to do is short hop towards them, Nikita, cancel as soon as possible. They're extremely tempted to punish your helplessness and you're moving towards them at mid/close range, but the Nikita should cover your trajectory and with the drop and how fast it cancels, it's surprisingly difficult to punish- use that to your advantage.

Again, you don't approach, you zone if you can, play the footsies game, bait them out and punish hard.

 

[bubbaking]

It's become apparent that are a ton of different styles of Snakes in here. I like to go all-out on my shield pressure unless I'm fishing for a kill at high %s or feeling defensive after garnering a lead. I guess that's the beauty of this character. I feel Snake is more flexible, as a char, than most other chars.

 

[Professor Pro]

There might be a ton of different styles but I am still yet to see Snake played effectively playing defensive/campy the whole game despite a lot of people inherently believing this is how he should be played.

Also to Humble's comment, Up B Nair isn't safe on shields and can be shieldgrabbed reasonably easy. Nair also isn't a good approach as the first two hits can be CC'd at very high percents.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

There might be a ton of different styles but I am still yet to see Snake played effectively playing defensive/campy the whole game despite a lot of people inherently believing this is how he should be played.

Also to Humble's comment, Up B Nair isn't safe on shields and can be shieldgrabbed reasonably easy. Nair also isn't a good approach as the first two hits can be CC'd at very high percents.

In my beginning days, I played defensively vs the melee vets and it netted me wins. Enough to make them salty. But I semi agree with you. While a snake that aggressively forces situations yields amazing results, such as in your region, a defensive snake that sets traps and then mobilizes when he sees opportunity can frustrate an opponent and make him lose just as good as a well placed fair from the aggressive snakey.

In this pov, snake can be MU dependent.
There's a pit in my region that wrecks my **** when I pkay snake. He out camps, and generally has better approaches and shield pressure and definitely more rewarding combos when he wants to dip in. This causes me to play defensive because I know what'll happen when I mess up an approach.

 

[bubbaking]

I am honestly not suggesting any one style of which Snake should be played. I'm a pretty aggressive Snake, myself. I just think several styles are possible. The relatively low lag of all of Snake's projectiles and traps, except for Mine, make defensive play very feasible. During some of my matches, I switch very quickly from applying pressure to jumping away and laying a quick C4 on the ground or a plat (when I don't feel like sticking it on the opponent). This tends to affect my opponent mentally and shape the way he plays. The detonation is also really low-lag, so I can just blow it up whenever, and whenever is really, really good IMO.

 

[Professor Pro]

Yeah I know there are several styles possible, I wouldn't and don't think I could even make a claim that there wasn't lol.
Defensive play with Snake is defintely feasible and an important mix-up through out the match...I just meant a style created and based around it isn't that effective imo (not saying that this is what you think)

 

[Professor Pro]

Since there isn't much Snake vids being posted I figured I would post some of mine from a few days ago against Fuzzyness, Jolteon and Alpha Dash

http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/361346552

The beginning of the stream is Melee so start from 2:09:12 and it should start off with me 4 stocking Alpha Dash :D

 

[Jonny Westside]

Since there isn't much Snake vids being posted I figured I would post some of mine from a few days ago against Fuzzyness, Jolteon and Alpha Dash

http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/361346552

The beginning of the stream is Melee so start from 2:09:12 and it should start off with me 4 stocking Alpha Dash :D

Dang son, you're straight up crack head aggresive..wtf lol what do you think the Snake vs Wario MU is?

 

[Sixth-Sense]

How do you drop a grenade? like i know you drop it when you shield, but is there any other way? and is there a way to drop it in the air? (like your decending from cypher)

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

How do you drop a grenade? like i know you drop it when you shield, but is there any other way? and is there a way to drop it in the air? (like your decending from cypher)

The only other way is by pressing grab. And no,you have to throw the grenade if snake is in the air

On a grenade related note, if you need to air dodge when recovering, snake can upB then pull a grenade and toss it and you get your air dodge, as a variation to doing an aerial out of upB for an air dodge

 

[Jonny Westside]

The only other way is by pressing grab. And no,you have to throw the grenade if snake is in the air

On a grenade related note, if you need to air dodge when recovering, snake can upB then pull a grenade and toss it and you get your air dodge, as a variation to doing an aerial out of upB for an air dodge

Personally i like to drop a C4 to gain my air dodge. But that nade alternative is very likely to yield a guaranteed safe return on stage (thanks to KB stacking)

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Personally i like to drop a C4 to gain my air dodge. But that nade alternative is very likely to yield a guaranteed safe return on stage (thanks to KB stacking)

I've had toss grenades bounce off the side of the stage and blow me up for an extra cypher. Go figure.

Speakin o which, I played Necko from the wifi Xat chat. He's got great combos and a keen eye for a lot of snakes gimmicks. But others in the chat say I should play you. Up for some wifi sometime?

 

[Plum]

Bouncing a grenade off the stage and Up B'ing into it is pretty legit on stages with walls on the side. I'm fairly consistent with it on Wario Ware, Yoshi's Story and the like, and I've at least accidentally done it on most stages so it's definitely something to practice. It's great when you are just too low to boost your recovery with C4 or a held grenade.

 

[bubbaking]

Personally i like to drop a C4 to gain my air dodge. But that nade alternative is very likely to yield a guaranteed safe return on stage (thanks to KB stacking)

Only if you hold it, though.

 

[Translucent]

Is there ever a reason to C4 just for damage and not for kill other than when you're at high percents or close to dieing?

 

[Jonny Westside]

Is there ever a reason to C4 just for damage and not for kill other than when you're at high percents or close to dieing?

If your opponent is too aggressive and pressures you then I think they've earned a nice explosion to the face as a gtfo type of deal to kill momentum. Additionally, triggering an early C4 should be rather helpful when you're trying to recover. It forces your opponent to shield, spot dodge (unlikely) or take the hit while you safely land or climb back on stage. Other than that, there is no other reason to prematurely detonate IMO.

 

[Plum]

C4 detonation can combo into a C4 stick if you are man enough

It's a fine GTFO option if you really need the space to breathe but in general I would say I would much rather use other options like Up B or shield dropped grenades to relieve pressure. I would detonate a stickied C4 only as a last resort because in general a low % kill is just worth it, even if you have to take some punishment to get it.
Aiding in recovery on the other hand, is a very good use of a stickied C4 outside of killing. If you think it will work, try to fake them out with the detonation cancel. Not much feels better when I'm playing Snake than baiting them to dodge a detonation cancel. Either gets you back on stage for free, or you get a free punish out of it.

 

[Translucent]

I also find myself using grenades a bunch. I will walk up with one and either shield or roll away, unfortunately i don't throw them that often anymore . Can somebody make a snake general discussion thread? I feel like a lot of my questions would be better put in one of those.

 

[Plum]

http://smashboards.com/threads/331765/

 

[leelue]

Yeah I know there are several styles possible, I wouldn't and don't think I could even make a claim that there wasn't lol.
Defensive play with Snake is defintely feasible and an important mix-up through out the match...I just meant a style created and based around it isn't that effective imo (not saying that this is what you think)

I haven't played in a while, but next time I play Eli (after pms3) I'll see if there's anything there to upload.

Likewise, the Nikita missile has low enough lag upon dropping it that, if positioned properly, he can usually get away with throwing it out, especially if has a good stage set-up to begin with. I remember Leelue used to do a bit of this when he would camp with Snake and it was hella annoying to get past.

Aw I feel loved

 

[dookdigity]

Any suggestions on approaching Ivysaur? I just got destroyed in tournament last night. Honestly it was mostly due to playing bad, but what zone is the safest for Snake to be? Ivy's range is epic, and his projectile leaf kept getting me.

 

[Plum]

I actually think it's pretty easy to outcamp Ivy.
Leaves are so easy to get around or just break with virtually any hitbox.
Grenades on the other hand are just a much more versatile projectile. Sure, Ivy has quantity, but you by far have quality.
What's she going to do if you just sit back and chuck grenades? You obviously can't just swat a grenade away so unlike you she doesn't have that luxury in the matchup. As long as you are changing up your grenade tactics with different tosses, and different primers to explode at different times, utilizing platforms, etc. it's hard to accurately get a read on Snake's grenade game. Ivy can't mix up leaves nearly to the degree that you can to try to trick you into one.
If leaves are problematic for you, just be patient and don't rush in. I find that's when its easiest for Ivy to hit you with leaves. Stay back with grenades, and bat away any leaves with jabs, tilts, shffl'd Nair, etc.
I think you can just force Ivy into approaching with that kind of mindset, which is far from where she wants to be in any matchup. Snake has a great defensive game, and his defensive options often turn into offensive openings. Also remember that her offensive game is really open to CC. It might seem like her range is too great at first, but her vulnerability to CC makes it very manageable. Maybe she can space aerials too far away for OOS options, or shield dropped grenades to tag her, so in that case just try to CC and punish accordingly.
Might only work once or twice before they catch on, but if you get Ivy far enough offstage to Up B, drop a Nikita just over the ledge and you can have it hit them right as her Up B swings to the stage, but before they can snap to the ledge. She's pretty tough to edge guard in general, and that's probably nothing better than a gimmick that rarely works against somebody who knows the matchup. Chasing her offstage with Nikita is pretty decent in general though. She isn't too mobile in the air other than Dair tricks, but can swat Nikita away with her long aerials, which even if you don't hit her might put her in a position that you can punish more readily.

 

[bubbaking]

Ivy's attacks are indeed CC-able, but good luck trying to CC her ftilt or crouch cancelled jabs. I feel the Nikita edgeguard thing actually works pretty well, you just have to vary its trajectory and the positions you drop it from. Also, I've had decent success with a 'Rambo-style' all-in dair offstage if you predict that Ivy is going to (or has to) tether. You can even FF it and you should still be able to recover.