approaching a crouching marth

[knightpraetor]

a thread to discuss what it sounds like..i tried to ask mew2king about it but he wasn't very specific...oh well

anyways, so in marth dittos you often wd around to dtilt...now during the wavedash and i think during the dtilt you can dash attack them..grab i don't think you'll get off unless you get lucky and grab the hand as it comes out.

The problem arises because marth's dtilt has IASA frames..meaning that it can get canceled to fsmash or ftilt making it hard to approach with aerials.

anyways i haven't gotten to play lately so now i'm wondering..can marth actually cross the distance with an aerial before the fsmash comes out? That seems plausible but i'm not sure..i definitely don't think it would work before the ftilt though.

and we can't always be approaching with an airdodge! so that's not a valid approach option by itself because then it gets predicted too easily...

you can fastfall to a shield and then try to wavedash in to grab...taht should work i guess against an ftilt or fsmash...not totally sure if it will work on the ftilt..someone care to check? maybe dropping in at the edge of range...


but anyways, if you do try to drop in and shield they will either dtilt again or try to grab you..i don't mind if they try to grab you..that means they are moving again and the game goes on..but the dtilt..you can't wavegrab between dtilts..but i know you people have taught me that you can grab marth's hand on the dtilt...but honestly how hard is that to do? i don't try it that often....is it possible to get 50% consistency or more? this assumes of course you threw off the marth's spacing a little by jumping in and dropping to shield.

ps- do you have time to just jump in and then drop and wait to react and shield? i mean i know you could react a fsmash..ftilt can be a little iffy though.

anyways, if you can react that makes things easier because you can shorthop over a dtilt if you call taht..and react to the fsmash and maybe ftilt.

of course this all may be for naught if the nair or something can hit before an ftilt on a crouching marth if done carefully...and i don't mean just a comparison of range..the question is how much time does the marth have to react.

 

[ArcNatural]

Grabbing is easy, since Marth's sword sticks out even during the IASA frames, so as long as you grab right after the first dtilt if they try again you will grab them. You can also sh fair them before a fsmash or a ftilt if you react after the shield lag fast enough. Most Marth's I play will just dtilt and dash away or through me, since spamming dtilt will usually lead to grabs.

I have to admit though, a Marth spamming dtilt when your on the edge (at least in a Marth ditto) makes it very hard to come back. Ledgehops often get interrupted or at least cc'd into a grab or smash, rolling behind is an easy IASA frame turn around grab or smash. Getting up normally just leads to being shield stabbed. Jumping from the ledge is easy to stop as well. Very annoying sometimes.

If you KNOW they are going to rush in and dtilt to smash, you can just bait them by jumping the dtilt, then double jump over the smash or dtilt and fastfall into an aerial.

 

[Omni]

Do a well-timed dash attack right after the d-tilt.
Dash behind them (don't roll).
D-tilt camp back.

Idk, too many options that will work in a Marth ditto. If all fails, f-air camp.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks for the advice...this was all prompted by watching taj vs cactuar matches at pound 2...it made me wonder if i could deal with Wd dtilt/crouch camping.

Honestly, they both used this strategy like 50% of the time.

question 1:
anyways you two dealt with the post shield application...still i didn't really get an answer as to whether a dashdancing marth spaced right can slip in an aerial on a crouching marth before he gets off the ftilt on reaction speed. My own guess was that you can slip in an aerial if they are in dtilt lag time, because even if they interrupt it it probably won't be fast enough to get the ftilt out before your aerial?

question 2:

assuming you do shield a ftilt at max range with marth, what are your options?

3.
if you wd to grab will it work and will the other marth have time to spotdodge?

4.
I'm guessing just shorthopping out of shield to fair is more effective in terms of speed than wd to grab?

edit: question 2 is stupid i was really only curious about these 2 options in 3 and 4..but if you have something else you want to commment/talk about it go for it

 

[MVPaintballer]

If you know your opponent will sidestep you could
SH nair
WD wait for SS to end then grab
WD spam dtilt

If the marth is keepin you @ range with his attacks counter could be an option.

 

[knightpraetor]

MVpaint i know all that..my question on 3 was more related to whether you can WD to grab after an ftilt before the marth can throw out another tilt, and if he has time to spotdodge...it's useful to know that for the same reason that no one grabs 50% of the time and waits the other 50% for a spotdodge...because if the opponent doesn't have time to spotdodge you should just always grab.

but ya i agree counter is a good option for people camping with dtilt..but an aerial would be better if it can close the gap fast enough, meh i guess i should just test this myself...

 

[Jeth]

I think you could crouch cancel a dash, wavedash back while charging/releasing F-smash. Might work as a mind game?

Anyway, I'd mosty counter or have my instinct set in and just fair and be punished if it's spot dodged since the player's already tilting down.

 

[Vice Lord]

marth has alot of options when crouched, cometimes i fake D-Tilt into a counter, or Forward Smash. or if you reverse SHFFLC a fair quickly followed by a d-tilt once or twice, you can make them space themselves out perfectly for F-Tilt after your next SHFFLC Fair. Modify this as you please, don't overuse it. i use it sometimes if my opponent is high % and doesn't seem to want to die.