Applications for PK Jump

[VRun0]

Hey there,

I just made a Smashboards account pretty much to post this thread. Basically, I have been maining Ness since the game came out and I feel like no one has really talked about the PK Jump. If you don't know what that is, then here is a link to a video of it: youtube.com/watch?v=8QHePOJRNKE.

It is performed by hitting jump and PK Fire at the same time, but the timing is very strict; it is completely different from a DJC PK Fire as you carry your momentum very far when doing this. I'm pretty sure that this has quite a few applications, but I'd like to apologize in advance if this is useless

One, I've found it useful to mix up my landings. I think that many Ness mains would agree that not getting juggled can definitely be a challenge, so the PK Jump can be used as a mix up here along with falling Uair or Nair. Ironically, down air can actually be useful here: if you space yourself correctly from the ground, you can cancel all of your landing lag after a PK Jump by quickly inputting a Dair, leaving you free to roll away, jab if they are going to grab you, or do something like a retreating Nair to get some space. Landing with a PK Jump is especially useful considering that Ness can't B-Reverse effectively with PK Flash. The downside to this is that Ness can't PK Jump backwards, so it will get predictable since you can only go in one direction.

Now, this one is more exciting: I'm pretty sure that the PK Fire from a PK Jump can be comboed out of a down throw at certain percents. However, you must immediately input the PK Jump after short hopping (again, the timing is really hard to get down). This is obviously DI dependent, but I don't really have a way of testing this out on actual players, since I can't really do the PK Jump reliably online. So if anyone could see if this actually works, I would really appreciate it. If this actually can be a true combo, then Ness has so many more options after landing the PK Fire: regrab while they fall to the ground, use pretty much any aerial, etc. Again, Ness carries his momentum while doing the PK Jump, so you will end up right next to your opponent if it connects. If anyone could test this then that would be amazing. I would also like to point out that it may not work at 0%: for example, on a DI-less Captain Falcon, it won't connect at 0%, but it starts working at around 50ish%.

Finally, this can be used as a mix-up when approaching. Short hop into PK Jump can leave you lagless (AKA hard to punish on whiff) if you cancel it with DAir, so you can continue from there with some Nair/Fair approaches or whatever really. That's all I have to say about this, so I hope it was of use to someone. Yeah, so if anyone wants to do some follow-up testing feel free. If I didn't make something clear, then I can clarify. Thanks! (Again, I really hope this isn't just nothing, I really think that this technique is much more useful in this game than it was in Brawl)

Edit: Somehow I completely overlooked another thread in the Ness forum that talks about the PK Jump, but it seems to be mostly dead... Anyway, it seems like this technique isn't so useless after all according to what is written there so I hope that this can be utilized well.

Edit 2: Sorry I know this post is huge but I wanted to add some more thoughts....

I also found that PK Jump can be used as an unexpected ledge option: just hold back on the ledge and then input the PK Jump. However, you can't cancel the lag on it when you do that as you land on the stage very quickly, so it's risky.

Also, I think that, after playing around with it more, this could be a really important tech for Ness mains to practice. IMO, many Ness players can abuse a "flowchart" style, so incorporating this could go a long way. And I really would like to stress that this may be comboable out of a down throw, which would be pretty huge.

 

[Earthbound360]

PK Jump is an strange beast. It can have a high payout because it sinks a flame right on top of an opponent, extending their effective burn time, and carries your momentum forwards, allowing a close range follow up a lot of the time. However, it's really punishable, and easy to miss with if not spaced properly. This makes it a rather high risk, high reward option, but it does have some uses I've found.

I personally would avoid trying to use PK Jump in situations where you can't lag cancel it. It's risky enough as is, don't need to make it any more dangerous.

PK Jump can be used to mix up landings sometimes. It catches people off guard sometimes when you're moving backwards, then you're suddenly jolting forwards. But just be sure not to abuse it to keep it unexpected and use it at the height you can lag cancel it (which is about a short hop above the ground).

The combo however, won't work. It's already a very tight timing trying to get a fair to combo off of dthrow, and PK Fire is even slower.

As an approach, again it's best used unexpectedly. The opponent normally has nothing to fear from Ness at the range a PK Jump hits, so use it when they're really not expecting you to approach. I've also found good use for it against projectile based characters as they sit around throwing stuff at you. You can use the hop of the PK Jump to leap over their projectiles and toss your own at them. I use this on Links and Megamans. But as usual, it IS punishable, so be careful.

The ledge thing is really risky, so much that I wouldn't try it. The payout isn't too great either since the landing will be so laggy that a good follow up won't be guaranteed. Also, if you screw up the PK Jump you're as good as dead.

Still good to see you're showing interest in a Ness AT though, and looking to find good use for it. IMO, the best uses are surprise approaches and floating over projectile walls.

 

[Noa.]

I really feel like I'm missing out on a very interesting option by not knowing how to do the pk jump. But my tech skill hasn't always been the weakest part of my game. :S

 

[Earthbound360]

It's worth trying and it has its applications. I suggest you feel it out in training mode, but use it if you feel like it suits you. You can get by easily without it, and if your tech skill and execution isn't on point, then you might endanger yourself with this tech should you screw up, fair warning.

All it is is hold forwards, DJ+PKF at the same time.

 

[Chihiro Fujisaki]

oh, so thats what this tech is called...

i've been using this tech actually, although not to its best effect. this thread will definitely be beneficial since now i know how to use this tech

 

[Azazel]

PK jump > Grounded PK > Fsmash combos

A nice set up for this is Grounded PK fire

PK fire > PK jump > PK fire > fsmash.

This set up into combo can 0 to death characters at the edge of teh stage.

If you do it low enough, PK jump can combo into itself but it breaks after like 3 because of the increased knockback due to high percents

 

[Noa.]

PK jump > Grounded PK > Fsmash combos

A nice set up for this is Grounded PK fire

PK fire > PK jump > PK fire > fsmash.

This set up into combo can 0 to death characters at the edge of teh stage.

If you do it low enough, PK jump can combo into itself but it breaks after like 3 because of the increased knockback due to high percents

I'm dubious of the reliability of any pk fire to pk fire combos because pk fire cannot trap opponents for too long.

 

[Azazel]

I'm dubious of the reliability of any pk fire to pk fire combos because pk fire cannot trap opponents for too long.

I know for sure PK jump > PK fire works below 60. unless they smash DI a decent amount, then its more of a below ~40-30 ish. Landing a PK jump is pretty risky though. The only decent set up I've found was a PK fire.

PK Jump chains I'm still investigating. It seems in the realm of possiblity since the shorter you PK jump the faster you can throw them out.
Also you can cross-up PK jump and use their Smash DI against them.

And finally Footstools.
You can cancel Footstools with your Double Jump, and get guaranteed PK Fire.

No need to be dubious. it is entirely possible because of the above. the only thing to be worry about is the difficulty and practicality

• PK jumps have a very strong chance possibly chain. They can be done in quick succession with perfect timing.
• Cross-up PK Jumps can counter Smash DI
• Footstools
• PK fire does ~20%, Fsmash kills at 80-100+%, It only take 4-5 PK fires to end a stock.

The above is substantial evidence. Good enough to warrant more experimentation. One thing I'd like to know is if you can simply DI up and jump out. It might make it only effective on fast fallers

 

[Earthbound360]

PK Fire does not combo into itself unless the opponent lets you do it by doing other moves.
PK Fire does not combo into bat unless the flame hits perfectly centered at you are at a point blank range.

Those aren't PK Jumps either. That's a DJC PKF.

PKF in reality should only combo into aerials, dash attack, or grab against people who know how to DI it.

I'm sorry, but I cringe every time I see people claim that PKF x100 is a true combo.

 

[Azazel]

PK Fire does not combo into itself unless the opponent lets you do it by doing other moves.
PK Fire does not combo into bat unless the flame hits perfectly centered at you are at a point blank range.

Those aren't PK Jumps either. That's a DJC PKF.

PKF in reality should only combo into aerials, dash attack, or grab against people who know how to DI it.

I'm sorry, but I cringe every time I see people claim that PKF x100 is a true combo.

Ok I made more progress on perfectly chaining them.
I fixed the main problem of them getting knocked out of it at higher percents because of the increased knockback. PK knocks them the same direction you shoot it no matter what. Even if it is hitting their back.

I accidentally PK magnet. When I released it, the wind box pushed them out of the PK fire. Light bulb. Why don't I push them into it?

Its possible to DJC PKF inside them, and Ness ends up behind the opponent, And Ness is fat enough to push them into the PK fire with his presence, which counters the knockback. They can now be stuck inside the PK fire for up to a good ~125%

Since simply your presence keeps them locked in teh PK fire, you can fully charge (or as much as you can until the PK fire dies out) an Fsmash which kills super early.

Problems that still persist.

• It's pretty hard to consistently DJC PKF through them.
• If they DI up, floaties can simply jump out, others can squeeze in a quick aerial and break the chain
• DI down + shield. PK fire does not have much hitstun, they can still shield in between hitboxes.
  a charged Fsmash can break shields; however, if they can shield, they can roll.

I think this is as far as I can take PK fire.

 

[Earthbound360]

No trust me, no PK Fire chaining should work on a good opponent unless they're jabbing or countering the fire. I understand you are trying to help, but PK Fire and Magnet are too slow to entrap someone who is DIing it correctly. It won't combo up to 125%, in fact it gets easier to DI out of with more damage. People can jump out, attack, and air dodge while burning.

Once again, the best thing you can land is a bat when the fire gets perfectly centered on them, which happens when they like spot dodge into a PK Fire or something. Other than that, just stick to grabs and aerials.

 

[Azazel]

No trust me, no PK Fire chaining should work on a good opponent unless they're jabbing or countering the fire. I understand you are trying to help, but PK Fire and Magnet are too slow to entrap someone who is DIing it correctly. It won't combo up to 125%, in fact it gets easier to DI out of with more damage. People can jump out, attack, and air dodge while burning.

Once again, the best thing you can land is a bat when the fire gets perfectly centered on them, which happens when they like spot dodge into a PK Fire or something. Other than that, just stick to grabs and aerials.

I don''t thing you fully understood what i was trying to explain. Sorry. Here's a quick vid of what i was describing.

The opponent straight up flys out of the PK fire at 200%. I was able to negate the knockback using Ness's chub chub body.

Now can you see the potential to chain PK fires? I'm gonna play around with this idea some more.

 

[Noa.]

I suggest you go do your pk Fire combos in tournament and then get back to us.

 

[Azazel]

I suggest you go do your pk Fire combos in tournament and then get back to us.

I knew looking into this the move fundamentally can't true combo because of the low hitstun (in the video at 200% it there was enough hitstun evidenced by the combo info on the training menu, but this is obviously not the case at lower percents.). I just saw potential in it. So i played around with it.
I supposed I can test its effectiveness on different characters.
Right now it is very impractical, Like teh infinite I found with mega.

 

[Earthbound360]

I don''t thing you fully understood what i was trying to explain. Sorry. Here's a quick vid of what i was describing.

The opponent straight up flys out of the PK fire at 200%. I was able to negate the knockback using Ness's chub chub body.

Now can you see the potential to chain PK fires? I'm gonna play around with this idea some more.

That's just a result of you centering the flame on someone, like I mentioned. It wasn't because of Ness' body (or it contributed a negligable amount).

Ocassionally, PKF will get right into the opponent's core, making it much harder to escape. If you're at point blank range, THEN you can get some nasty slow move to hit, but that's really the only time. Even then, it can sometimes be escaped or interrupted by people with fast jabs.

Getting PKF centered on an opponent and being point blank range happens rarely though. The only way I can see it occurring is if you DJC it or the opponent mistimes a spot dodge or roll towards you. If it does happen though, then your opponent will be seeing stars.

 

[Azazel]

That's just a result of you centering the flame on someone, like I mentioned. It wasn't because of Ness' body (or it contributed a negligable amount).

Ocassionally, PKF will get right into the opponent's core, making it much harder to escape. If you're at point blank range, THEN you can get some nasty slow move to hit, but that's really the only time. Even then, it can sometimes be escaped or interrupted by people with fast jabs.

Getting PKF centered on an opponent and being point blank range happens rarely though. The only way I can see it occurring is if you DJC it or the opponent mistimes a spot dodge or roll towards you. If it does happen though, then your opponent will be seeing stars.

PK fire sends opponents the same direction it is shot. You don't want to center it, optimally you want to put it inside their back. That way it virtually sucks them into the PK fire (until the PK fire reaches the center on them, then it is virtually spitting them out.)

It was because of Ness's body. Grounded characters push much harder than airborne characters. The PK fire in the video kept the Boswer Jr. airborne, This is the reason Ness didn't get pushed much and pushed Bowser Jr. strong enough to keep him inside the PK fire.

(this explanation based on the assumption that your reasoning for Ness's body contributing minimally was teh lack of pushback Ness received.)

Sorry if my text explainations are bad. I can always make more vids.

 

[Earthbound360]

That's what I mean by centering it. Basically, you want to get it as deep in them as possible so that they have a long path to DI out of.

The reason it made him airborne was because of his incredibly high damage. The first bursting hitbox that sets off the flame pushed him very high upwards to begin with, so he was burning in the air.

The first hit of PKF has more knockback than the later burns. It just gets cancelled immediately by the other hits. You can notice this in training mode if you PKF someone at 999%. You'll get the red lightning flash on the first hit, but not the later ones.

 

[Azazel]

That's what I mean by centering it. Basically, you want to get it as deep in them as possible so that they have a long path to DI out of.

The reason it made him airborne was because of his incredibly high damage. The first bursting hitbox that sets off the flame pushed him very high upwards to begin with, so he was burning in the air.

The first hit of PKF has more knockback than the later burns. It just gets cancelled immediately by the other hits. You can notice this in training mode if you PKF someone at 999%. You'll get the red lightning flash on the first hit, but not the later ones.

I've observed the first hit of PK fire knockback.
Quick question, do the rest of the PK fire flashes have teh same hitstun, or does the hitstun of successive flashes decay?

 

[Earthbound360]

Probably the same amount, not sure.

 

[Azazel]

This is as far as I could take it. Just look at the combo meter. it fluctutates alot
The best spot to place a PK fire is in their back. I had to consistently sweet spot every PK fire. It was actually pretty easy to do.
At 0 percents it's super easy to get out. at ~40% PK fire begins to have meaningful hitstun, but not really (for reference at 170% PK fire flashes have enough hitstun to combo, as seen in my "Ness is fat" video)

at ~60+% it has almost decent hitstuns

PK fires shot in opposite directions negate each other's horizontal knockback. I'll use arrows to represent PK fires and their direction.

→← ← charged Fsmash
2 of them Null each other the last one was negated by Ness's body.

Big Issues

• Lack of meaningful hitstun at low percents; will only work effectively on characters with bad aerial frame data and are somewhat floaty, or at high percents (which pretty pointless)
• Must be started with a cross-up DJC PK fire. (gotta get them hard reads)

Final thoughts
Can't say I didn't try. I did find that you could use Ness's body to counter the knockback. It is the best possible PK fire you can land for follow-ups; for example, it is possible combo a weak pk flash

All that matters is that you tried, and that takes courage. -some loser

I tried my best to optimize the Idea, Sweet spot PK fire and and dealing with the knockback. The bottleneck is the rate I can throw PK fires and their very very VERY low hitstun at low percents.

Thank you for being patient with my theory crafting, and and looking past my PK fire chain tin foil hat and being generally helpful!

 

[PKBeam]

what happens if you miss the DJC PKF and your opponent gets 50 free frames?

 

[Azazel]

what happens if you miss the DJC PKF and your opponent gets 50 free frames?

You obviously get punished pretty bad. lel.
I'm done investigating PK fire, I feel I hit a wall. Feel free to mess around with the idea if you think there's still more to it.

The loop is
cross-up DJC PKF > PK fire > backwards SH > hold forwards > DJC PK fire > so on so forth

Pushback on hit mechanic + Ness's Dtilt is funny