Anyone else think Jigglypuff is "Broken"?

[Mario123311]

I know I am probably gonna piss a lot of people off with this... I'm sorry but this is something that still annoys me to this day honestly.


What I am about to tell you is my experience back during a lil' Melee Tourney we held at a visit to a DigiPEN I went to once. So I was lucky enough to sign up because I was looking up for a fair matchup hopefully simply and most of all just to have fun: But instead I was unfortunate enough to face against a player who happened to pick Jigglypuff. I was curious as to WHY someone would pick such a character but I shrugged it off and selected Mario. The stage was Final Destination... Clearly the worst stage to fight this pink pillowhead on and I quickly learned just how broken this character she could be.

For starters, There's her "Roll-Out" move. Not only did this player manage to make it from one part of the stage all the way to the next SEVERAL TIMES I might add. But whenever I tried to simply knock the ******* out of it nothing happened, no damage, my fireball simply DISSOLVES as it hits her when she's rolling, Even if she's just charging. And her "Rest" move... The fact that it can OHKO you and the fact you are almost at the amount of damage to get knocked out by it just proves my point. It's preferably why I have smouldering hate for her these days and why they brought this back in SSB3DS/U is beyond me.

Needless to say, I lost due to the fact I could not keep my composure on the stage and the fact the damn puffhead kept rocketing everywhere for me to even get a single KO on her. Afterward I found out that the player not only won the whole tourney but pretty much but there were 3 winners in a row using Jigglypuff in the past. There's a difference between being "good" at a game or playing as a character who is simply overpowered and broken. This is almost Meta Knight levels of bad and I'm surprised how there hasn't been a ban on her.


...The point of this thread is to simply ask if anyone has a similar expirence to mine or shares the same opinion or whatnot. I really just would like to know considering that after I lost I went complete AVGN afterward.... almost.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I know I am probably gonna piss a lot of people off with this... I'm sorry but this is something that still annoys me to this day honestly.


What I am about to tell you is my experience back during a lil' Melee Tourney we held at a visit to a DigiPEN I went to once. So I was lucky enough to sign up because I was looking up for a fair matchup hopefully simply and most of all just to have fun: But instead I was unfortunate enough to face against a player who happened to pick Jigglypuff. I was curious as to WHY someone would pick such a character but I shrugged it off and selected Mario. The stage was Final Destination... Clearly the worst stage to fight this pink pillowhead on and I quickly learned just how broken this character she could be.

For starters, There's her "Roll-Out" move. Not only did this player manage to make it from one part of the stage all the way to the next SEVERAL TIMES I might add. But whenever I tried to simply knock the ******* out of it nothing happened, no damage, my fireball simply DISSOLVES as it hits her when she's rolling, Even if she's just charging. And her "Rest" move... The fact that it can OHKO you and the fact you are almost at the amount of damage to get knocked out by it just proves my point. It's preferably why I have smouldering hate for her these days and why they brought this back in SSB3DS/U is beyond me.

Needless to say, I lost due to the fact I could not keep my composure on the stage and the fact the damn puffhead kept rocketing everywhere for me to even get a single KO on her. Afterward I found out that the player not only won the whole tourney but pretty much but there were 3 winners in a row using Jigglypuff in the past. There's a difference between being "good" at a game or playing as a character who is simply overpowered and broken. This is almost Meta Knight levels of bad and I'm surprised how there hasn't been a ban on her.


...The point of this thread is to simply ask if anyone has a similar expirence to mine or shares the same opinion or whatnot. I really just would like to know considering that after I lost I went complete AVGN afterward.... almost.

Can't tell if troll, but I'll answer nontheless.

First of all, her roll out is extremely easy to punish, with almost every attack. Even the charge up is highly punishable. While Rest may be slightly infuriating, it's highly situational and hard to get off on top of that.
As for why she is not banned, she isn't the best character in the game by any means, so why would she be banned? I get that you have no MU experience against her, but she's not best character or broken by any means. She's not even close to MK levels, and even if she was, there are easy counterpicks against her.

 

[Mario123311]

I am actually not kidding with what I said, That experience actually happened. I have tried to counter her Roll-out several times then only to have no avail.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I am actually not kidding with what I said, That experience actually happened. I have tried to counter her Roll-out several times then only to have no avail.

Because Fireballs don't have priority, cape her, f-smash, d-smash, etc.

 

[Stride]

Fireballs won't work. Shield it and then take your free punish. Even if you drop the punish, if the opponent realises they aren't going to catch you out then they should stop using it since there's no longer any point. Rollout is almost never used in competitive play because it's awful.

Don't ask for a character to be banned just because you lost to it one time since you didn't know how to counter it. There are far, far more broken things in this game than Rollout, and literally every character has them (some more than others, of course); if you think Jigglypuff's Rollout is cheap then wait until you see her Planking. If Puff is banworthy, then so is Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, and Ice Climbers; they're all approximately as good (half of them are better).

Think about how to counter it, rather than giving up and calling for a ban after you lose 2 games. Work on your frustration issues. Ask the Jigglypuff player for friendlies/advice and listen to what he has to say and make the appropriate adjustments. Unless he's an asshole or busy he'll be willing to at least play with you, and will probably be willing to advise you too. Maybe he'll end up as your regular training partner or friend.

The next time you're in a situation like this, make a list (it can just be in your head; you don't have to actually write it) of all the possible options you could do and the possible outcomes of each. In your case it would be something like this:

Rollout
• Fireball: gets eaten so doesn't stop it at all; I still get hit anyway.
• Crouch-cancel: doesn't really work; too high knockback.
• Weak attack (tilt, jab, etc.): likely to trade or lose, low reward on hit, less punishable on whiff than smash attack. Not good.
• Smash attack (any): high reward, tight timing/easy to misjudge, window to react may be too small if close to opponent. Mario has minimal disjoint so it's a high risk of trading.
• Shield: Safe; Rollout bounces off, lots of time to punish. Watch out for them moving back the other way if they don't hit me the first time.
• Cape: Turns them around so they'll roll to their death if they don't react and turn around, kind of difficult to time and risky if I miss.

Also FD is generally a bad Jigglypuff stage since she needs the platforms to move around and poke safely, as well as for a lot of her combos/followups. Dreamland and Fountain of Dreams are her best tournament-legal stages, and Puff players will nearly always counterpick to one of them if they can. Ban one of those stages against her next time.

Concerning Rest: Puff doesn't have too many good Rest setups on the Mario Bros., so you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. If she misses one, you just can cape her repeatedly (since it doesn't wake her up), and then charge a forward smash or up smash. Since she get punished hard for missing it and because she has few guaranteed/safe setups, your opponent should be rarely (if ever) going for Rests outside of those guaranteed setups. However they can and will go for it until you prove that you're capable of punishing it (since the risk/reward is heavily in their favour if you can't); you prove you can punish it either by showing that you're a good enough player in general that they can safely assume you know what to do, or by actually doing it to them.

Read these:
http://shoryuken.com/2003/07/21/domination-101-on-cheapness/
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

 

[KillerGum]

This truly is ****post heaven

 

[Bones0]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

Puff has a bad match up against Fox, the most played character in the game. So no, Puff isn't broken.

Rollout is a terrible move that is easily punishable. Rest is a very risky move that almost guarantees death if you miss, and even if it hits, if the opponent is able to DI correctly to avoid a star KO then they can usually still punish the rest.

Now this isnt to say that Jigglypuff is a bad character by any means, but she is definitely not broken.

 

[Cool]

Yeah, rollout is widely considered the most overpowered move in all of competitive games. The only reason people play Melee anymore is to use the move in all of its OP glory, smh.

 

[kingPiano]

Just use a character with a sword, Jigglypuff is a balloon type pokemon. Pop that B, super effective.

 

[FROST :)]

Are you for real? I'm not even sure why its so high on the tier list TBH. There's only one player that places well with her. But I do agree that its very frustrating to play against. Also in the lower levels the character its a little bit OP because it doesn't require as much time to pick up as the other top tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

First of all your not going to "piss anyone off" unless that is your original intention.

As for your question, no Puff is not OP nor is she anywhere near Meat Knight levels of OP. MK was so OP that it was Illogical to NOT play him in a tournament because he was just so far ahead of the curve.

My opinion on your experience with Jiggs is that you had never played a Puff main before nor did you know how to punish/deal with Puff so it was obvious who was going to have the mental advantage never mind the better character.

Also as for your fireballs not dealing damage or having any effect on the rollout attack, rollout has higher priority compared to fireball so they simply have no effect on it.

As for your negative view on Puff returning in Sm4sh, I think what you are experiencing is similar to a puppy being attacked by a grown adult dog. That puppy will then be scared of other dogs and will react violently towards other dogs to protect itself even if there is no danger present. I am in no way comparing you to a violent dog or saying you are scared of Puff being in Sm4sh but you had a bad experience with Puff in Melee and from that point onwards you are biased and hold this strong opinion against this character.

Are you for real? I'm not even sure why its so high on the tier list TBH. There's only one player that places well with her.

As for this statement, I believe Jigglypuff to be a him. Also one of the top six best players in Melee, lots of other people play him.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

This. A thousand times this. No, a million times.

This should be required reading before joining smashboards IMO. Scrubs EVERYWHERE these days (Thanks, smash 4)

 

[Mario123311]

This. A thousand times this. No, a million times.

This should be required reading before joining smashboards IMO. Scrubs EVERYWHERE these days (Thanks, smash 4)

Except Smash 4 is actually more balanced than Melee. I don't want my roster to be limited to Fox, Falcon, Ganondorf, Swordfighters and Jigglypuff. I want to play as characters I personally like such as Mario and have a good time. Not be bounced around unable to do ANYTHING whatsoever.

Not only that, But the fact that at where the tournaments were held, Almost every winner was a Jigglypuff at that point from what I was told. ((And a ton of people chose Jigglypuff as their character during the match apparently)) How does that not sound problematic?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Except Smash 4 is actually more balanced than Melee. I don't want my roster to be limited to Fox, Falcon, Ganondorf, Swordfighters and Jigglypuff. I want to play as characters I personally like such as Mario and have a good time. Not be bounced around unable to do ANYTHING whatsoever.

Hmm.. Sounds like your problem is that you aren't very good at the game, and choose to find fault with melee because you're a sore loser.

It's ok. It's everyone else's fault that you can't win with Mario. Funny, I 3 stocked a fox player with Mario in melee just yesterday.

Keep up the positive attitude man, I'm sure blaming everything except yourself for not winning will make you into a true champion.


Please guys, let's try to keep this discussion....

 

[FROST :)]

@mario1123311
Well you might as well go back to smash4 if you dont like melee. Nobody forces you to play Melee. You either stop whining, learn and adapt or quit playing competitively and go for a more casual approach.

As for this statement, I believe Jigglypuff to be a him. Also one of the top six best players in Melee, lots of other people play him.

Yeah , as I said, only 1 player places well with Jiggs. By default then Pikachu should be pushed up in the tier list because of one player?

 

[HalcyonDays]

Except Smash 4 is actually more balanced than Melee. I don't want my roster to be limited to Fox, Falcon, Ganondorf, Swordfighters and Jigglypuff. I want to play as characters I personally like such as Mario and have a good time. Not be bounced around unable to do ANYTHING whatsoever.

Not only that, But the fact that at where the tournaments were held, Almost every winner was a Jigglypuff at that point from what I was told. ((And a ton of people chose Jigglypuff as their character during the match apparently)) How does that not sound problematic?

Nah, he isn't referring to tier balance or anything. He's talking about the mindset of the players.

Smash 4 is notable for causing the side effect of bringing in a lot of new players who are unfamiliar with competitive Smash. These new players tend to complain a lot when they feel something is too "cheap" or "overpowered" and spend time complaining rather than using that energy to find a counter strategy that would work.

If you want to get into competitive Smash, especially competitive Melee, then I would suggest you throw out the mindset of "Ugh, this is so cheap, I can't beat this!" and instead start thinking "Okay, how should I avoid/counter this opponent's strategy and win?"

In the end, you'll have that feeling of pride and satisfaction knowing that you have the ability to adapt. It's a great mindset to have for everything, not just Smash Bros.

 

[FROST :)]

Nah, he isn't referring to tier balance or anything. He's talking about the mindset of the players.

Smash 4 is notable for causing the side effect of bringing in a lot of new players who are unfamiliar with competitive Smash. These new players tend to complain a lot when they feel something is too "cheap" or "overpowered" and spend time complaining rather than using that energy to find a counter strategy that would work.

If you want to get into competitive Smash, especially competitive Melee, then I would suggest you throw out the mindset of "Ugh, this is so cheap, I can't beat this!" and instead start thinking "Okay, how should I avoid/counter this opponent's strategy and win?"

In the end, you'll have that feeling of pride and satisfaction knowing that you have the ability to adapt. It's a great mindset to have for everything, not just Smash Bros.

Exactly, Sakurai isnt going to patch a 13 y/o game. Work your way around it like everyone does or move on.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah , as I said, only 1 player places well with Jiggs. By default then Pikachu should be pushed up in the tier list because of one player?

In prospect, yes. If some nobody picked up Pichu and started wrecking everybody up with him, eventually making it to the top of the leader board and competing with the likes of M2k and Mang0, then beating them to become one of the best players of as of right now, it would show that Pichu has a lot of potential and if used correctly can be turned into an absolute beast and then should therefore be moved up the tier list because people would see the potential of Pichu and Pichu would then be considered a great character, rather than licking the bottom the tier list.

Even Chillin' said that Chu moved IC's up a bunch of spaces because of how well he played with them at a tourney, people realised the potential and then started developing the character. Eventually turning IC's into a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Mario123311]

Nah, he isn't referring to tier balance or anything. He's talking about the mindset of the players.

Smash 4 is notable for causing the side effect of bringing in a lot of new players who are unfamiliar with competitive Smash. These new players tend to complain a lot when they feel something is too "cheap" or "overpowered" and spend time complaining rather than using that energy to find a counter strategy that would work.

If you want to get into competitive Smash, especially competitive Melee, then I would suggest you throw out the mindset of "Ugh, this is so cheap, I can't beat this!" and instead start thinking "Okay, how should I avoid/counter this opponent's strategy and win?"

In the end, you'll have that feeling of pride and satisfaction knowing that you have the ability to adapt. It's a great mindset to have for everything, not just Smash Bros.

Melee was actually my first Smash game if you weren't aware. And honestly I didn't expect ANY of this **** to happen. I just thought it would be a simple tournament where someone wins... Not try to exploit this type of stuff and keep other people from even having a single bit of fun. Hell, I can have some fun on For Glory Mode. The problem with my experience was I was trolled and utterly insulted for just trying to play a game as I was the one who was primarily targeted to the point I couldn't do a damn thing.

Knock that **** off, please.

 

[kingPiano]

This. A thousand times this. No, a million times.

This should be required reading before joining smashboards IMO. Scrubs EVERYWHERE these days (Thanks, smash 4)

Brah, you are thinking about this all wrong.

Bring on the scrubs, EAAAAASSSYYY MONEEEEYYYYYY!

 

[Deleted member]

Melee was actually my first Smash game if you weren't aware. And honestly I didn't expect ANY of this **** to happen. I just thought it would be a simple tournament where someone wins... Not try to exploit this type of stuff and keep other people from even having a single bit of fun. Hell, I can have some fun on For Glory Mode. The problem with my experience was I was trolled and utterly insulted for just trying to play a game as I was the one who was primarily targeted to the point I couldn't do a damn thing.

You obviously don't understand what Melee is meant to be. It was a fun party game that people ended up taking seriously because they got good at it.

If you think people are this against you don't go to tourneys, play at home with friends. No shame.

 

[HalcyonDays]

Melee was actually my first Smash game if you weren't aware. And honestly I didn't expect ANY of this **** to happen. I just thought it would be a simple tournament where someone wins... Not try to exploit this type of stuff and keep other people from even having a single bit of fun. Hell, I can have some fun on For Glory Mode. The problem with my experience was I was trolled and utterly insulted for just trying to play a game as I was the one who was primarily targeted to the point I couldn't do a damn thing.

It's alright if Melee was your first Smash game. You should be able to realize though, that there's a rather fine line between competitive style Melee and the more casual style of playing. Even if Melee was your first Smash game, if you weren't familiar with competitive Melee before, you probably know by now that it's almost an entirely different, very cut-throat atmosphere.

The depth of Melee runs deep, and just like your local swimming pool, there's a shallow end and a deep end. You'll need to practice swimming and learn a few more things before you go into the deep end, or else your experience might not be so pleasant.

To add to this ocean analogy: "There is always a bigger fish out there."

I've 4-stocked people who have 4-stocked other people, and in turn got outplayed by other players. There's a wide variety of skill levels here, because of the high skill ceiling.

I'm assuming this was your first Melee tournament, right? Maybe even your first Smash tourney in general? I'm not sure of the level of tournament it was, but generally they tend to attract a lot of hardcore players who've been playing the game for years, maybe even more than a decade. If you've been out of touch, then you probably shouldn't expect to win right out of playing Smash 4 (I'm assuming you've been playing more Smash 4 than Melee recently.)

If there's anything you should take away from this thread though, it's to learn how to have a competitive mindset, like mentioned before. It'll ultimately help you improve in the long run.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Brah, you are thinking about this all wrong.

Bring on the scrubs, EAAAAASSSYYY MONEEEEYYYYYY!

True. I need to see this kid play against Bizz now. Where you at Bizarro flame? show him the meaning of disrespect.

Knock that **** off, please.

Only if you stop complaining / blaming everything except yourself for losing in a video game.

 

[Mario123311]

True. I need to see this kid play against Bizz now. Where you at Bizarro flame? show him the meaning of disrespect.

...If you are sincerely trying to be an ass, congratulations. You certainly aren't helping me think anymore. I play to have fun, Not to get pounded up with nothing I can do to fight back in a game. Yes, This was my first tournament. I was expecting it to be relatively harmless.

...I think this has gone long enough at this point. Somebody please lock this. I think I'll avoid the Melee subforum from now on.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Good riddance. Terrible SDI on my negative remarks btw.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Closed as per requested.