Any Tips on Facing Sheik?

[version15]

Havent been playing a huge amount with Ganon (or the game much yet for that matter), but I'm thinking about maining him along with my current main ZSS.

However, I ran into a good Sheik and frankly had no idea what to do. I could not approach at all lol. Anyone know the best way to approach and then capitalize on her?

 

[MezzoMe]

The best way to use Ganondorf in this match-up is to not use Ganondorf.
Really, just because of the archetype of the two characters Sheik will always have an edge, it's no wonder that this match-up has been the most difficult for Ganon both in Melee and Brawl.
Though I don't have too much experience with this match-up, I know that one of, if not the main reason of her dominance is her camping with needles, wich gives Ganon difficult time in neutral. So hou must always have in mind them and be ready to powershield all of them.
Secondarily, you'll want to capitalize on rage and her lack of reliable finishers, so when you are in kill range be aware of her sweetspotted USmash and Vanish mainly. Bouncing Fish might be used as well but is easily shielded.
Also most of her moves do low damage so you can outprioritize those with non-trascendental priority.
Finally, her recovery is extra trumpable, and I think that it's the situation where Ganon has an edge over Sheik.
That is what I know, I don't have that much experience with this match-up, as I said.

 

[version15]

The best way to use Ganondorf in this match-up is to not use Ganondorf.
Really, just because of the archetype of the two characters Sheik will always have an edge, it's no wonder that this match-up has been the most difficult for Ganon both in Melee and Brawl.
Though I don't have too much experience with this match-up, I know that one of, if not the main reason of her dominance is her camping with needles, wich gives Ganon difficult time in neutral. So hou must always have in mind them and be ready to powershield all of them.
Secondarily, you'll want to capitalize on rage and her lack of reliable finishers, so when you are in kill range be aware of her sweetspotted USmash and Vanish mainly. Bouncing Fish might be used as well but is easily shielded.
Also most of her moves do low damage so you can outprioritize those with non-trascendental priority.
Finally, her recovery is extra trumpable, and I think that it's the situation where Ganon has an edge over Sheik.
That is what I know, I don't have that much experience with this match-up, as I said.

Needles was exactly what I was having trouble with, I just couldn't approach her, and I haven't learned the mu enough yet.

I apologize for my unfamiliarity with the terminology, when you say power shield you mean block right? I was doing so but I kept getting conditioned into getting grabbed xD

I appreciate the advice. If anyone else has any other tips I'd really love to hear them!

 

[Hi-Hatz]

It's fairly advanced, but there is a very tight window where you can spike her as she is using her Up-B recovery onto the ledge. You are supposed to time your spike hitbox to be active around the same time as the beginning of her grabbing the ledge. Or you can use ledge-trump tactics.

If needles are giving you problems, be sure to take that into consideration with stage choice. Always consider stage choice to give you that little boost you need. The stage also determines how you can approach.

A lot of it is definitely just going to be learning the MU. Against somebody like Sheik, you pretty much have to eventually. Ganondorf thrives on knowing character MU but also personal MU against specific people, so practice practice until you are able to smash them out of Bouncing Fish and dodge their Up-B hitbox etc.. Practice, learn, practice even more, and don't get demoralized when characters can 0 to 50%+ you consistently because it's part of Ganon's play-style to just take that early juggling. Good luck.

 

[MezzoMe]

• Powershield is another name for "perfect shield".

It is basically the Smash Bros. version of traditional fighting games' parry, where hitting the defense button right before an attacks hits you, wich makes the attacker vulnerable, not too differently to how Bayonetta games' Witch time works.
The frame are more or less like this
First frame
It's the frame in wich you press the shield button, wich is the start-up lag of the shield. Some research states that in Smash 4 it's two frames of start-up lag, but it's unconfirmed.
The first four frames when the shield is up
It's the window in wich any attack that doesn't ignore shields(such as grabs) will get powershielded. A powershield has

• 0 shield damage;
• 0 shieldstun;
• 0 shieldlag
• A technique called "perfect shield cancelling", wich allows you to ignore the shield drop frames (see below) by imputting an attack as soon as the shieldstun ends (however, you can't imput a side or down smash, since the game will register a roll/sidestep)

Thanks to the last two bullets, it means that, depending on the attack you use and that the enemy uses, you can hit your enemy while they are still suffering their hitlag.
Since only you suffer hitlag when speaking of projectiles, you can't punish them, unless you are near them, but the enemy will take no advantage at all, and if you menage to powershield every projectile(and of course you have the lead or you are tied), you can just sit there and force the opponent to approach instead.
After the powershield window
In this time the shield will start to shrink in time, will suffer shielstun and shield damage, in other words, it will become a normal shield.
Also, if you menage to shield drop normally, but no attacks hits you, you will be encased in the shield for 7 frames after the powershield window ends.
After you let go the shield button
The character you are using incurs in the shield drop animation, that probably in this game is 7 frames, in this window you are vulnerable

 

[Vermanubis]

Lots of good info in here already, but in my experience, the MU can be summarized like this:

Anticipate needle camping and be patient. PS whatever you can, and try to steadily move toward her. Try to discourage her approaches with DTilts and jabs. Challenge her SH FAirs with SH BAir walls. Be prepared to fight back offstage against FAirs with UAirs or NAirs. I've noticed Sheiks like to use bouncing fish when you get too close, too, so once you start getting close, anticipate some aggressive manuevers on her part.

Some Sheiks will use use their jumps confuse you, scare you into your shield, and jump behind you or something. If the Sheik uses a FH or DJ in front of you, NAir them. If they try to go behind you, either run in the opposite direction, or try to NAir. FTilt can be punished on PS with jab, but if you just normal shield, just roll away. The important thing is to be ballsy in the right places. For instance, it's a better risk/reward ratio to just throw a NAir out if she's jumping all over your shield space, than it is to sit in your shield and wait for her to do your plumbing.

Most everything you do's gonna require hard reads though. There's really nothing in this match that Ganon has that can directly answer Sheik. More like just know what Sheiks typically like to do so you can think a few steps ahead. For example, intercepting a bouncing fish rather than trying to punish it, e.g. if a Sheik tries to bouncing fish you as you're waiting near the ledge, try your luck with an FSmash, the same you would against a Diddy who recklessly side-bs onto the stage. Or if she does it onstage, instead of trying to directly punish it, shield the BF and run towards her. This'll close the gap and force <some> kind of reaction, so reading that reaction is what I mean by thinking a few steps ahead.

And above everything: be patient. No matter how many needles she throws at you, you're one hit away from evening it up.

Here're a few sets against a Sheik that might have something useful in them:

Spoiler

 

[A2ZOMG]

Instead of repeating what others have said, I'll just throw this out. Some random Sheik tech that I think the Japanese have is that after Flame Choke, SH F-air can literally cover both getup attack and away roll timed correctly.

https://twitter.com/Nobuhikoo/status/546645750638080000

 

[Opana]

I use shff nair spacing a good deal here, they often attempt to punish but get hit with a jab or tilt due to tge low landing lag. As for needles, it's hard to anticipate when they'll throw them but I usually use repeated dash into shield until I gdt vloser, then I'll do the above and attempt to string an attack or make a hard read. I try and mix it up by switching around when I begin jumping and shielding, imo mix ups are essential fo this MU. That goes for recovery too, don't just go low or high but mix it up s a well placed fair or fish from them can cost us a stock. I play riskier than a lot of Ganons and attempt to combo and pressure like always, but the difference is I wait for my chance. I like to create and opening with mind games, mainly empty jumping. I find this works well with platforms, keep them guessing whether you'll use the platfofm or fall through it.

Last bit, they often jump into fair when I recover high, so I time a ganoncide go either reset the match or retain my stock lead.

 

[Z1GMA]

Spot Dodge Bouncing Fish. it gives you enough time to grab her.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Wait seven years for her to reveal herself as Zelda.

 

[version15]

It's fairly advanced, but there is a very tight window where you can spike her as she is using her Up-B recovery onto the ledge. You are supposed to time your spike hitbox to be active around the same time as the beginning of her grabbing the ledge. Or you can use ledge-trump tactics.

If needles are giving you problems, be sure to take that into consideration with stage choice. Always consider stage choice to give you that little boost you need. The stage also determines how you can approach.

A lot of it is definitely just going to be learning the MU. Against somebody like Sheik, you pretty much have to eventually. Ganondorf thrives on knowing character MU but also personal MU against specific people, so practice practice until you are able to smash them out of Bouncing Fish and dodge their Up-B hitbox etc.. Practice, learn, practice even more, and don't get demoralized when characters can 0 to 50%+ you consistently because it's part of Ganon's play-style to just take that early juggling. Good luck.

Thanks, I need to get over that. Thats usually how the matches start out, where I've taken a lot of zoning from her without having touched her early on, hence my panic shielding which leads to me getting grab punished. I'll try to keep a cool head.

Lots of good info in here already, but in my experience, the MU can be summarized like this:

Anticipate needle camping and be patient. PS whatever you can, and try to steadily move toward her. Try to discourage her approaches with DTilts and jabs. Challenge her SH FAirs with SH BAir walls. Be prepared to fight back offstage against FAirs with UAirs or NAirs. I've noticed Sheiks like to use bouncing fish when you get too close, too, so once you start getting close, anticipate some aggressive manuevers on her part.

Some Sheiks will use use their jumps confuse you, scare you into your shield, and jump behind you or something. If the Sheik uses a FH or DJ in front of you, NAir them. If they try to go behind you, either run in the opposite direction, or try to NAir. FTilt can be punished on PS with jab, but if you just normal shield, just roll away. The important thing is to be ballsy in the right places. For instance, it's a better risk/reward ratio to just throw a NAir out if she's jumping all over your shield space, than it is to sit in your shield and wait for her to do your plumbing.

Most everything you do's gonna require hard reads though. There's really nothing in this match that Ganon has that can directly answer Sheik. More like just know what Sheiks typically like to do so you can think a few steps ahead. For example, intercepting a bouncing fish rather than trying to punish it, e.g. if a Sheik tries to bouncing fish you as you're waiting near the ledge, try your luck with an FSmash, the same you would against a Diddy who recklessly side-bs onto the stage. Or if she does it onstage, instead of trying to directly punish it, shield the BF and run towards her. This'll close the gap and force <some> kind of reaction, so reading that reaction is what I mean by thinking a few steps ahead.

And above everything: be patient. No matter how many needles she throws at you, you're one hit away from evening it up.

Here're a few sets against a Sheik that might have something useful in them:

Spoiler

Thanks a bunch, the sets and info are really interesting. Ill definitely review.

I use shff nair spacing a good deal here, they often attempt to punish but get hit with a jab or tilt due to tge low landing lag. As for needles, it's hard to anticipate when they'll throw them but I usually use repeated dash into shield until I gdt vloser, then I'll do the above and attempt to string an attack or make a hard read. I try and mix it up by switching around when I begin jumping and shielding, imo mix ups are essential fo this MU. That goes for recovery too, don't just go low or high but mix it up s a well placed fair or fish from them can cost us a stock. I play riskier than a lot of Ganons and attempt to combo and pressure like always, but the difference is I wait for my chance. I like to create and opening with mind games, mainly empty jumping. I find this works well with platforms, keep them guessing whether you'll use the platfofm or fall through it.

Last bit, they often jump into fair when I recover high, so I time a ganoncide go either reset the match or retain my stock lead.

Yea I ganoncide any time I'm ahead and feel like I'm not getting anywhere lol. Cant he down special a character at just the right angle so that he lands on the ledge, but she goes down?

Spot Dodge Bouncing Fish. it gives you enough time to grab her.

I always have trouble grabbing as ganon, but its something I need to practice.

 

[Opana]

We can short hop wiz kick then jump/up special back, double jump wizkick up special back, or wizkick at the bery ledg like you're saying.