Another 'Critique my Ganon' video

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2UGXede4h4&feature=youtu.be

In my opinion I did too much rolling, not enough wavelands, and should of charged an Usmash instead of a failed attempt at a late fair

 

[M-Tude]

Hi! Since no one else is answering you, here's my breakdown of what I saw. My general advice is at the bottom, FYI

0:22 That roll was pretty unsafe and you could have gotten punished way more.


0:24 That roll was pretty unnecessary, and potentially pretty unsafe. With Marth facing away and jumping above you, you could probably have Uaired him.


0:25 Dthrow instead of Bthrow


0:34 I might have been a bit more patient and waited for him to fall down a bit more and done a DJ stomp back onto the platform, or turned toward center stage and done a DJ bair to hit him far off stage. Stomp, being both a meteor smash and electric, has waayyyy more hitstun/% than a normal attack. you have time to wait.


0:40 Learn to space Dairs better, and you could have hit his shield and faded back out of grab range.


0:50 That wizards foot could be seen a mile off. Do it closer next time so they have less time to react.


0:59 Grab D-throw Bair instead of F-tilt. In my personal opinion, against Marth it is generally better to go for a grab than an F-tilt when within range of both.


1:04 Dthrow. Dthrow bair would have killed


1:17 Dthrow. Center stage it guarantees bair if they DI back or not at all (=kill) or U air for DI front. At least has the chance to get bair with Dthrow.


1:31 Once again, within F-tilt and Grab range I would have done a grab. You can CG marth to 15% and then bair/Nair him depending on the direction you want him to go.


1:51 That Up-B was sorta guaranteed not to hit. DJ on platform Instant Uair probably would have hit there, or shield on the platform till he falls in grab range and Dthrow Bair.


2:00 If you could jab him you could grab him and D-throw Bair again. This would have put him back in an edge guard situation. Very good for you.


2:20 Ledge hop on stage and grab him.


2:52 Nice crouch cancel! You wasted a punish with the roll though, you could definitely grab him while he was in lag and perform my very favorite D-throw Bair. It would probably do you some good at the percent he was at.


2:55 You tend to do Fair/Bair into Ftilt a lot, and it only worked once this game. Try something else like Bair DD Fair, or, since you probably conditioned him to just hold shield until after you do an f-tilt on his shield, just run and grab him after landing an aerial on shield. It would be worth a try for the punishment you could get.


3:10 STOP BACK THROWING HIM!!!!


3:23 Grab him, not F-tilt


3:47 with the lag he was in after the F-smash, a grab would probably be better than a jab.


3:57 Teching toward the ledge was real dangerous, he was pretty close to getting you.


Missed a few L-cancels/SHFFLs


It looks like you’re getting comfortable with platforms, which is good. experiment with wavelands more and make your ganon a fast and slippery target.

On movement though, you hardly ever DD or WD, only waveland sometimes. Despite ganon's small DD, it is still a great way to throw off your enemy's spacing, and combining it with WD on the ground can make ganon pretty fast.

You did roll a lot, but it was more that you rolled through him on some occasions than the roll in general. He could just turn around and f-smash or grab most of the time you rolled through him.

I understand that in this game, a lot of my advice was "D-throw bair" and against a marth who was better at spacing grabs are harder to get. But you get a lot of mileage off of D-throws so I recommend going for them and trying things out. If the marth is at mid percents, D-throw nair can sometimes send them onto a platform to be tech-chased with Uair and sent off stage. It's really good and I recommend you try it.

Hope this helps

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

Thanks for the advice. I felt like such a ****ing scrub after reading your post. I want to add that that video was 'grand finals' of a weekly 'friendlies' tournament we hold. I was under much pressure, and resort to stale predictable moves.

Johns aside, I'm going to re-evaluate every flaw you've critiqued (which I highly appreciate btw) and conclude what in my opinion would have been a better option.

0:22 Having trouble gaining center stage, I figured a better option would be to fast fall to the side of the stage and pace myself back to the middle. I fast falled to the stage and shielded to roll. What I should have done is wavedash to the center and possibly f-tilted.

0:24 Stressed-out-to-repetitive moves johns. In my mentality I wanted to defensively get back to center stage. A wavedash to uair (as you said) would have been a better option.

0:25 and any other whiffed throws: Tournament stress johns again lead to bad hesitations like these. I'll have to work on that for upcoming matches.

0:34 I have reason to believe a fast DJ fair would have been more effective, but I also feel like my DJ uair was the byfar safest option. In situations like that, sending the opponent far away is a good way for me to avoid stress.

0:40 I stupidly SHFFL dair in the neutral game and often get shielded by it. How exactly could I space it better? I'm thinking of altogether just abandoning this option for important matches.

0:50 I hesitated when I saw his side-smash come out. Obviously terrible option again, that only works at close-medium range. Just another bad habit I've got to stop.

0:59 Not only was I invincible, but he whiffed an airdodge. Downthrow-bair would of been a better option as you said. I'll have to start punishing whiffed airdodges at low percents with that option I suppose.

1:04 Dthrow-Bair yet again another better option as you mentioned. When near the edge at stressful situations I will flop and just send them off the edge. I wonder if throwing opponents off the ledge is a decent option at lower percents.

1:31 I feel like if I had attempted a grab, it would have been dodged/punished, but then again I don't shieldgrab/grab enough in the neutral game IMO.

1:51 Sometimes you just have to go out in style. I was half-confident it wouldn't of hit, making him go away and give me center stage advantage (which is desirable in this matchup)

2:00 I feel like the jab was the safer option in that situation, but the Dthrow-bair would have given better stage control

2:20 Ganon's <100% edge attack has good priority(IMO), grants a hit ~10%(If I'm not mistaken), and has decent knockback to evade from stressful situations. I'm not 100% convinced I would have been successfully able to grab him in that situation, not only given the stress, but also the fact that he could also have DI'd backwards after the airdodge and grab the ledge instead.

2:52 I never noticed I CC'd it, but now that I notice that, I'll keep in mind to CC more of Marth's Nairs at low percents. I should have shieldgrabbed it to bair as you mentioned yet again.

2:55, 3:10 Under-pressure johns yet again. I tend to fair/ftilt alot in neutral, let alone in stressful situations. Another bad habit I have to work on

3:23 IMO the ftilt was a decent option, and I could have just uaired instead of fair after having hit.

3:47 Dthrow-Uair/Bair would have been best yet again. Edgehop-grab isn't an option I perform enough, and I'll have to work on that as well.

3:57 I had ****ty options overall to get out of the tech-chase. I just feel like getting closer to the edge would have stopped him from tech chasing. At higher percents I shouldn't do this though.

In a stressful set, and in general, missing L-cancels and SHFFLs is a bit of a given. Ultimately it's something everyone must perfect but not always possible. I find myself pretty good at L-cancels in general, but I feel like I don't fastfall enough of certain shorthop aerials at times.

On the topic of DD/WD, I have started implementing small ammounts of DD into my moveset. As I knew I'm not fluent enough with it, I decided not to DD at all in that set so I wouldn't get punished for trying out things I wasn't sure of.

WD is an option I don't like as much, though WD out of shield is an option I should start implementing some more. As you mentioned, a combination of WD/DD would be great for putting pressure on the neutral game. The only things I like of ganon's wavedash is out of shield, and using it as a replacement of his initial dash animation.

The rolling's a really scrubby option I perform in stressful situations. Most of them I could have just WD OoS IMO.

Thanks for the tip, I did notice a lot of your advice was that one setup which is great. I'll have to keep in mind about the mid-percent nair out of Dthrow.

Thanks a lot for the advice, I learnt quite a bit from it. My ganon's a work in progress that has yet to shine to it's potential. If you find my analysis of your critiques was incorrect, don't be shy to reply!

 

[M-Tude]

Don't have time to write a ton right now, but I'll just say a few things.

Dair on shield can be safe, and I like doing it. If you full jump and Dair the nearest, top corner of the opponent's shield it pushes them far away, and you have time to fade back and not get punished. Also it could possibly shied stab a marth whos head is poking out, but this is actually pretty hard to space. Full jump Dair can also be double jumped out of, so thats an escape method if going for the dair doesn't get you anything. SH fair is harder to space, but the non fast falled fade-away still aplies to some extent. If you look at your spacing on that Dair, you actually spaced it quite nicely, on the near side of marth's shield. You can also see how far marth is pushed back from the hit as well. If you had been holding toward center stage after connecting the Dair on shield, you probably could have FF or normal falled out of grab range and reset the neutral.

So, here's my thing about F-tilt vs Grab. Now, I'm not a huge frame data guy, but F-tilt comes out on frame 9. Grab comes out on frame 7, so with a small dash JC forward they probably come out around the same time. D-throw-->bair is around 20% while Ftilt is 12% You generally don't have any good followups from Ftilt, while you can with D-throw-->bair/nair/uair. Ftilt is a great spacing tool, its pretty quick and has good knock back but besides using it to wall or space, I'd rather go for a grab if I'm in range. F-tilt may very well have been a fine option (or even the better option) at times in the match but D-throw is $$$

Ganon's CC is great, get comfortable with it. experiement to see when CC stops working. sometimes its a pretty high threshold.

Also, don't feel like such a scrub, you won because you made better decisions that the other guy.

The last thing I have to say--and this is up for debate--is that I might rather take the damage from a tech in place rather than rolling toward ledge at the end. One successful edgeguard doesn't matter what % you are at, and Ganon is easy to edge guard. He's heavy though, so he can take a beating, and teching in place and CCing whatever his reaction was might not have been a bad idea. There are other options out of tech in place obviously but that's just one example.

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk4yp_7tcOA Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjVWXRfWIq0 Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP29heG-nQQ Part 3

I know where I went wrong and how to improve on it, I'd just like to see if your advice would be different from mine.

 

[M-Tude]

Didnt spend as much time on these cause there are 3 of them. Let me know your thoughts too.

Game 1

0:24 **** dude, great start. Right here, personally I thought a side-b to cover 3 options when she starts to move (I think it works on peach) would have been sweet! That’s just a personal flair though.

0:54 Bair-->F-tilt worked. But you’re not relying on it as much, good stuff.

1:16 poor DI

1:40 I assume that airdodge was a technical error

1:46 Really like that WL on the side platform. Dropping off with a Bair there would have been sexy!

1:59 you know I think your bair-->f-tilt might have come in handy as spacing tools right here. You should also learn to auto-cancel ganon’s Bair, cause it reduces land lag to 4 frames so you can get you f-tilt out that much quicker.

2:21 Nice spacing, she didn’t get the shield grab.

3:19 really nice up angled F-tilt. Good awareness of spacing

I noticed that when you’re tech-chasing, (0:25 & 1:13 & 3:40 as examples) you often go for a hard read on the roll away, but then come down with a DJ Bair in the middle like your trying to maybe cover tech in place and roll away but not really covering either. Ganon has great range but its not that great. Commit to an option. If you notice, you got the read all 3 times. SH Fair is your simple, safe option.

Your spacing and waveland game were nice this game.

Game 2

0:09 That was a pretty unsafe D-tilt. A Grab or a roll would have been safer.

0:24 you wavelanded right into her float. A regular ledgehop into F-tilt or spaced Fair might been better. A good mixup I’ve seen recently is ledgehop runoff backwards DJ to stage & Bair. It baits them into coming forward and then you Bair them. I haven’t gotten to try it yet, but it looks sweet! If you get a chance to do it, tell me about it.

1:45 This is where you want to practice Dair spacing again, so you wont get punished for it on shield.

1:54 I woud be a little more patient here. If she rolls up then you can do a fast move and jab her or Tilt her back off, and if she just normal gets up you can go for a warning fair if you want, but shes still in a bad spot on the edge. It looked like you were thinking about being patient, but then panicked and did a hail mary fair.

1:56 among other times this game, F-smash was pretty unsafe.

Not much to say about this game really. The stage definitely tripped you up a few times, and you did too many accidental F-smashes, and your spacing was a whole lot worse than last game. You also did the ledge-jump 3 times in a row, so that got punished finally the 3rd time.

Also, the Peach was just dominating you on a lot of those missed techs, and if she didn’t get the immediate follow up, you almost always did a get-up attack, which became really easily punished later in the game. Hit your techs more and she won’t be able to dominate you nearly as much. Also, if you miss the tech, switch up your options every once in a while.

Get more comfortable with the stage, it will make you less nervous and more patient.

Game 3

0:22 Dash attack was unsafe. Spaced fair would have been better. You saw peach CC your F-tilt, so I persoanally would assume shes gonna go for a dash attack or D-smash after that, so a spaced Fair is pretty safe id say. Plus, getting that close to peach just seems like a bad idea.

0:29 It might be pretty hard but wall jump Bair after ledge teching the D-smash would have been real good. Actually I know its hard, so no worries.

0:41 Last time you criticized yourself for rolling too much, but a roll right here might have been pretty good. Ganon’s pretty slow OoS so a roll might have been better if she didn’t read it.

0:41 That DJ you did when she got you off stage was pretty ill advised. FF dropping low into DJ sweet spot would have been pretty safe probably. Ganon has alright options from the ledge too.

2:43 I think you could have DJ sweet spotted the ledge, which is way safer. If not, then going low for a reverse up-B I actually less punishable than a normal up-B.

2:51 not sure why you went for a reverse Bair that time. Uair would probably be a better option for that angle.

So you just got stuck on platforms a lot this game, which makes easy meat for peach’s D-smash or floating aerials. You like the top platform a lot, which is OK but I think you go there a bit too much. Ganon’s pretty slow so once he’s up there he’s kinda up there for a while. Some of the time, the center stage was open for you to take, and instead you went to the top platform. Jut something to think about.

You did the full ledge jump a lot again, and she kept punishing it a good amount of the time.

My advice this set is less specific because I don’t know the peach match up very well, but spacing seems like everything. Space with as much range as possible. Fair on shield is fine if she cant D-smash or grab you after it. If you get into close quarters with her, shes gonna CC most of what you do, so unless shes at a high percent, Id say rolling away and grabbing are probably your two safest options. Ganon’s roll is good, so hopefully it won’t be punished if you do it right.

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

Thanks a lot for the advice again. I'll give my 2 cents about the videos.

Game 1

Let me tell you that we've had so many sets that our first stage usually ends up being dreamland and we always agree to it on the first stage. I've tended to always win on dreamland on game 1. The space in between platforms and far blast zones really help my defense.

0:24 That looked cool, but it was nothing more than a nervous bair haha. I should have followed up with a fair to cover that techchase away. Infact many times in that set I ****ed up a techroll away with a bair instead of a fair, which you've mentioned in your post.

0:54 I tend not to use side B(or downsmash) as much in my playstyle simply because I can almost never make it work. When I'm by the ledge in central stage I like to bait out aerials into ftilts to get some edgeguards.

1:40 from that position I usually fall into a bair, but I saw her dashattack(probably reading it), ****ing up my game. I should have fair'd instead of airdodge.

1:46 a dropped bair would have been better than a choky shield. I think at the time I wanted to shielddrop, which would have been a bad option

1:59 Once again, a bair would have been the better option. I'll have to look into auto-cancelling. The only problem will be having to learn how to do it effectively.

Game 2: I'll have to work a lot more on this matchup on FoD and FD. These are my weak points in the matchup because I easily give control of her gimpy Dsmashes and Nairs if I'm not careful of my spacing.

0:09 Terrible D-tilt indeed. I should have shieldgrabbed her dash attack, one of my main strategies on the ground in this matchup.

0:24 As you said, a DJ out of ledge into fair would have been the safest option. I'll keep that trick in mind, but I'm not sure if it would have been as effective on FoD's low platforms.

1:45 a full jump dair would have been easier to not get punished out of, but ultimately a bair would have been better to shieldpoke with.

1:54 Hail-Mary fair? lmao Yeah I get too panicky on FoD against Peach(**** her Dsmash). Maybe a wavedash back to f-tilt would have worked better in my favour. Some bad/awkward positioning right there for sure. A retreating fair could have also been better

1:56 When I panick, I make too many accidental smash attacks(and sometimes they work haha) from trying to SHFFL too quickly but not jumping. It's another thing I must improve on.

On FoD I will have to get better with gaining stage control from center stage, spacing myself better from the platforms to avoid aerials/nairs, and ultimately playing more calm and collectively. I figure FoD is better than FD for Ganon, so I should get myself more used to the stage. Stages also become part of a psychological aspect of my playstyle. When I see a good stage will be played on, it motivates me to play better, but when I see a bad stage, I stress out. I'm gonna have to work on this a lot.

I believe the bad psychological state played part in how bad my repetitive options played out. Practice makes perfect.

Game 3: I love battlefield and usually do good on this stage, but I made many bad decisions.

0:22 You're 100% right. That was too panicky of an attack and I don't know why I did that, especially against a d-smash lol. Spaced fair is best in that time.

0:29 Great advice! I'll have to keep that in mind next time I get a wall jump tech against her Dsmash. Lately I haven't been getting the techs off it, I'll have to practice a lot more for that.

0:41 Stupid me wanted to CC into shieldgrab. It's like what PC Chris said in the documentary about Ken Countering all his lazers and hitting him: "It's one thing to tell your head that, but another thing to tell that to your hands." A buffer roll towards center stage could have been a good option though.

0:41 In my mind I was reading another dash attack. Bad mentality. I should have waited to get closer to the ledge, and DJ Uair.

2:43 I didn't have the space to grab the ledge out of my DJ, nor would I have been able to reverse upB. A normal low UpB would have been a better option, but she would of still punished it IMO.

2:51 Probably a panick attack, but yeah a Uair would have been a better spacing option

Looking back on game 3 entirely, I should have been a lot more patient with my defensive options. I rushed into a lot of things that lead to easy punishes. Panicking lead to repetitive movements and bad teching options. I also didn't capitalize on center stage control, another important aspect of this matchup to avoid getting easily edgeguarded.

When I get too stressed trying to DJ edgehop onto stage/waveland I buffer a edge jump. This really has to stop.

One of my downfalls is that I don't grab enough. The only grabs I perform are shieldgrabs. The only opportunities I could see myself getting a free grab is after her up B, which I'd rather Bair/Uair. I could also grab out of her rolls at close quarters, but I'd much rather SHFFL dair since most the time she Dsmashes at that point.

I appreciate the help a lot. Any advice I can get is good advice in this tricky matchup.

 

[Hail M. Gunlance]

instead of jumping onto the edge of the stage, you should make ganon face the center of the stage and wavedash onto the edge.

 

[M-Tude]

Not necessarily. It can be a mind game as if you're jumping out for a bair or reverse uair, or to force an opponent low. Depends on the situation, as well as the position of your enemy. If you wanted to, you could point out an example of when you think he should have done it, and I'd love to debate the merit of your suggestion in that particular situation.

 

[-ACE-]

You should only wd onto ledge when you want to edgehog (preferably off reaction reads are fine in certain situations), or if you know a ledgehop option (like invincible ledgehop uair) will hit, or cover enough options safely so you can follow up if necessary. Always ff to the ledge too, it makes a deference. But in many cases, taking the ledge is a big commitment and screws your options. Someone that is experienced at recovering is just waiting for the edgeguarder to commit to something unnecessarily as it leaves several options as safe for the one recovering. Everything is very situational. If anyone has edgeguarding questions bump the old edgeguarding thread.