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Analog vs. Digital - Is The Kind of Tech Skill Important?

Fashion

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
24
There has been a lot of discussion swirling around the topic of alternative controllers for SSBM lately, and I do believe a lot of well thought-out arguments and points have been made by both sides. From my perspective, however, it seems that there are some core ideologies at work here that either often go overlooked or are misunderstood by one side or the other. In this post I am going to attempt to outline this underlying philosophical debate going on about Melee as a competitive game, and frame in it such a way that helps to make the different sides of the debate more easily understandable.

First, I think its a good idea to get a couple of things out of the way before we go further into this discussion. And one point I would like to make is on the nature of competitive sports in general. At the end of the day, all competitive activities, at least from what I can gather, boil down to an arbitrary set of rules designed to make completing a simple task unnecessarily difficult. You then hold a contest to see who is the best at completing this arbitrarily difficult task. Sports also tend to have very narrow and specific regulations for the equipment that is used to play the game. This not only ensures a level playing field between competitors, and ensures the best safety possible for the particular sport, but it also helps define the specific skill sets the sport is trying to test.

Now, I think the biggest sticking point for a lot of the discussion going on around the Smash Box and other alternative controllers actually comes down to, essentially, the subjective opinion of what an individual thinks is important to be tested within a competitive match of Super Smash Bros. Melee. And where you lie within this ideological spectrum is going to influence your opinion on what types of controllers or mods should and should not be legal. I think it easiest to deal with the extremities of this spectrum first so I will now try and tackle that.

There are essentially two components at work during any match of Melee, the physical/mechanical part, and the mental/strategic part. The decisions you make within the game would obviously be the mental aspect, and how you actually input those commands into the game via your controller would of course be the physical aspect. Now lets say for the sake of argument that we decide, as a community, that the mechanical part of Melee, the physical use of the controller, is of zero concern to us in a competitive environment. We do not think this is a skill that should be tested in any capacity. We would of course be moved to legalize any and all controller modifications and macros. Since we are not concerned at all about the mechanical controlling of your character, or the method with which you input commands, it wouldn't matter if someone has a button on their controller that inputs a series of perfect waveshines. All we care about is the decisions the person is making within the game. In fact our end goal should ideally be some contraption we could hook up to our brains to remove the need for physical controllers entirely. Now I think most people are not within the camp of believing that the mechanical aspect of the game holds zero importance to us. But if you do happen to feel that way, and you are totally allowed to, then maybe you could be the person to bring Mind Melee into reality.

So if we decide that the physical inputting of commands to the GameCube holds some importance within our community then we need to figure out exactly how much importance we place on it. Gravy gave a specific example last night during the Melee It On Me podcast that I think nicely highlights the difference between the Smash Box and a gamecube controller. Of course as we all know by now, the Smash Box has no analog input. It maps the four cardinal directions to its four main directional buttons and then has a set of four modifiers that alter these cardinal inputs. Now if I get any of this wrong feel free to correct me. But from how Gravy described specifically the operation of the Smash Box when you want to drift with an aerial, I think we can form a distinction between the two types of control methods. On a standard analog stick, on the second to last frame of your jump squat, the x,y value of your control stick is read and this is what determines the trajectory of your jump. And with the Smash Box, if I understood correctly, you have 16 possible button combinations, using the cardinal direction buttons, and the modifiers, and each of these combinations gives you a different spacing for your jump. You still need to hit these combinations within the timing window to successfully get the trajectory for your jump that you want.

Now these two methods of controlling your character are inherently different. I am not saying either is better or worse, just that they are different. One method relies on moving an analog stick to a specific coordinate that you cannot physically feel on the controller, within a specific timing window, while not over or undershooting said coordinate. The other method requires you to memorize several button combinations and then choose the correct one for your spacing, while also inputting this combination within the correct timing window. These are two very different types of tech skill. The specific movements you are doing with your fingers to achieve your goals are physically different. And these two different types of tech skill translate into all other aspects of the game involving your characters movement.

This distinction between input methods and whether or not a person thinks the distinction is important is what has been causing a large portion of the dissonance within the discussion. For 15 years, as a community, we have been solely testing the first type of tech skill. Every player and commentator understands how easy or difficult a particular thing is within the game because we have all been interfacing with the game in the exact same way. Introducing the Smash Box, or any controller with analog to digital conversion inherently changes how the player physically interacts with the mechanical aspects of the game. The argument can be made that people hold a gamecube controller in different ways, which changes how you interact with the mechanics, but a similar thing could be said for tennis rackets or golf clubs. What is important within those sports is that the equipment is the same, and how to interact with it is up to the competitor. Again, how much value each individual places on this is going to depend on what they think is relevant to our game as a competition between players. The way I see it, deciding as a community whether or not we care about the particular type of tech skill used to interact with the game is as important as deciding whether or we think that Smash Box gives any kind of competitive advantage.

My personal opinion is that the unified control scheme we've always had with the gamecube controller holds a simplicity and elegance that helps Melee stand out as a competitive game. Its not that analog is inherently better or worse, although arguments could and have been made from the standpoint of analog being the intended control mechanism, as the game was designed for gamecube controllers. I place more importance on everyone using the same control scheme, whether analog or digital, as to keep the parameters of competition as narrow and objective as possible, assuming of course you place heavy importance on mechanical skill being part of what should be tested within Melee, which I do. In the same way, I would never want to play against someone using a baseball bat for tennis, even if this makes him far worse at tennis. My opponent and myself would no longer be testing the same kinds of physical skill.

I know the gamecube controller is not perfect. It could certainly use help in the areas of ergonomics and consistency. But if you place significant importance on the kinds of tech skill tested within Melee, I do not know that introducing an entirely different control method is the best solution for our particular problems.

TL;DR: SSBM is a game played by physically inputting commands via a controller. The movements you have to make with your hands and fingers change when you introduce a different controller. Traditional sports tend to have very specific regulations for the equipment used to play the sport. This keeps the skill sets that are being tested as narrow and objective as possible. Currently, with only a single controller available, Melee is close to a sport in its approach to equipment rule sets. Introducing a new controller may make it more difficult to accurately and objectively test the physical skill portion of SSBM within a competitive setting. This is only important if the community decides it values the specific mechanical skills used to play Melee with a gamecube controller.

edit: fixed a typo. added TL;DR.
 
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Leyzars

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 18, 2016
Messages
4
This whole ordeal would probably be completely avoided if smashbox had an analog joystick instead of the buttons. idk maybe that is just me but I would have loved to see more people get in with a more traditional controller to grow our scene more and more.
 

Fashion

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
24
I can try to TL;DR. There are a lot of factors that go into the perspective I'm trying to convey so it might still be a bit lengthy. haha.
 

iAmMatt

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This whole ordeal would probably be completely avoided if smashbox had an analog joystick instead of the buttons. idk maybe that is just me but I would have loved to see more people get in with a more traditional controller to grow our scene more and more.
Playing melee with a joystick is hell
 

Dolla Pills

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
894
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Connecticut
There is literally a paragraph starting with "TL;DR" in the opening post.
In my defense I believe this was just added

But yeah imo the simpler we can keep things the better. Maybe with a solid rule set on what is allowed on controllers and what isn't there wouldn't be such an issue, but until we can come up with a good one that's the stance I take on it
 

Zeth444

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2015
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113
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Brasília, Brasil.
I agree with you but I would like to make an addendum: We already can not accurately and objectively mesure phisical skill in melee (Whose execution is better,Westballz´s or Wizzrobe's). Also even though mechanical skills are valuable, and an important part of the game, I want to argue that it is overrated.
Let´s say you just watched a set between Hungrybox and Westballz: Wes´ tech was amazing, he did platform cancels, perfect wavelands and wavedashes, but everytime he decided to approach, Hbox would stuff it with Bair ; everytime the falco was offstage he died; half of his jumps were met by an aerial; at the end of the last game, the jigglypuff got a read and Fsmashed the poor bird, he Amsah teched it... but the followup killed him anyway. 3-0.
Tell me, who in this game had the best machanical skill? Hbox only got 3 rests this set, and no clutch combo. Who had the best neutral? Now tell me, who was by far the best player?
Im not trying to say that we should play mind melee or that macros and auto L-cancel/shorthop mods are fine, but you need to consider that the dificulty variance between GCC and the Smashbox is virtually none (further tests will either deny or confirm this): notches and the "maped" shieldrop (as you watched the MIOM podcast, you know its not really mapped) are equivalent (maybe I understood it wrong, but I believe there is a moment on the podcast when they conclud that notches are actually better), SB can pivot uptilt and perfect wavedash way easier, while aerial drifting is unintuitive, harder and limited, plus there is a increase on the APM demand for some things on the SB and it has an unique SD input where you laser intead of shine. In other words, the machanical demand is conserved.
Last, I would like to argue that, just like happened with the Hitbox controller for standart FG, there will be those who can not bear to play on it, and those who will be way more confortble with it, making the controller choice much more like the choice of youre racket brand, size and weight. You are still playing the same game, but the amount of strength/effort you put on youre moves are adapted to the equipament.

PS: Sorry for my terrible english but thats the best I could do with my limited collection of conjuntives (I actually think I did a pretty good job);
PS¹: Also, it could attract people from the FGC, what would good for the grown of the comunity;
PS²: Can you Amsah-tech Jiggs Fsmash?;
PS³: If the "?" sounded (read?) sarcastic/passive-agressive, know it was not my intention.
 
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Fashion

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
24
I agree with you but I would like to make an addendum: We already can not accurately and objectively mesure phisical skill in melee (Whose execution is better,Westballz´s or Wizzrobe's). Also even though mechanical skills are valuable, and an important part of the game, I want to argue that it is overrated.
Well, we could technically measure tech skill if we wanted to, at least we could test certain pieces of tech individually. You would simply have both players attempt to execute a certain bit of tech a lot of times in a row and count who hit it the most often. I mean, we obviously don't do this because it's not conducive to figuring out who would win a set or anything, but it could be done. And further more, any tech skill contest of that nature would be much more objective if they were both using the same controller.

Let´s say you just watched a set between Hungrybox and Westballz: Wes´ tech was amazing, he did platform cancels, perfect wavelands and wavedashes, but everytime he decided to approach, Hbox would stuff it with Bair ; everytime the falco was offstage he died; half of his jumps were met by an aerial; at the end of the last game, the jigglypuff got a read and Fsmashed the poor bird, he Amsah teched it... but the followup killed him anyway. 3-0.
Tell me, who in this game had the best machanical skill? Hbox only got 3 rests this set, and no clutch combo. Who had the best neutral? Now tell me, who was by far the best player?
Now as far as this bit goes, you are absolutely right that mechanical skill is not the only factor deciding match wins, probably not even the largest factor, especially at the highest level, but that does not necessarily mean it is not beneficial to our scene as whole to still ensure that during the course of a match, the physical components of the game are tested in as specific and regulated way as possible.

Last, I would like to argue that, just like happened with the Hitbox controller for standart FG, there will be those who can not bear to play on it, and those who will be way more confortble with it, making the controller choice much more like the choice of youre racket brand, size and weight. You are still playing the same game, but the amount of strength/effort you put on you're moves are adapted to the equipment.
And for this last portion, I'd say that if we had options for gamecube controllers that were of different dimensions to better accommodate people's varying hand sizes, this would be more similar to players using tennis rackets of different dimensions, because a tennis racket, regardless of size is still going to function and be used mechanically in the exact same way, where as the gamecube controller and the Smash Box will not.

Also, your English was just fine, and I didn't find you to be passive aggressive or anything. no worries. haha.

edit: fixed a typo. also, clarified some wording.
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
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I agree with the vast majority of what you said, but I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the GameCube controller is some optional part of the game. Like you touched on, the game was designed specifically to work with the official GameCube controller. It doesn't matter if someone doesn't value performing tech skill on a GameCube controller because that's a skill that the game tests. To try to circumvent this skill with a different controller is, to me, comparable to modifying the game's code to circumvent other forms of skill.

Is there a philosophical difference between modifying controllers and modifying the game's code or programming? Let's say that on one hand, we have a player who modified his controller to send the specific set of shield drop coordinates when he presses the D-pad. This is essentially what the Smash Box does and is the type of digital input for analog control mod that people are arguing over. On the other hand, we have a player who modified his version of Melee so that when the game reads a downward D-pad input, it performs a shield drop. There is certainly no functional difference between these two mods, but proponents of the Smash Box and other third party controllers would have you believe that the former is legitimate while the latter is not.

Ironically, the latter is actually the most fair because at least both players would have access to the shield drop button. When the modifications are taking place inside the controllers themselves, there is not even a remote semblance of fairness. Gravy and other proponents of the Smash Box have really been hammering away at the fact that the GameCube controller is inconsistent. If this were really the main issue, why wouldn't the solution come in the form of modding the game where everyone could benefit from the easier inputs? You could certainly mod Melee so that the D-pad causes certain inputs like perfect angles or instant shield drops.

The reason this would never catch on is simply that people intuitively understand that modding the game to play differently is fundamentally changing what game we're actually playing and leads to "subjective opinions" defining all of the skills our game tests. Modding the code to make shield drops or angles easier because people don't value tech skill could just as easily apply to character balance. (e.g. "The majority of the community doesn't value the skill of Sheik's chain grab, therefore we're going to mod all NTSC setups to play with her PAL down throw.") Unfortunately, a lot of people get duped into thinking modding the controllers used to play the game does not equate to changing the game in the same exact way when it clearly does.
 

Fashion

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
24
I agree with the vast majority of what you said, but I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the GameCube controller is some optional part of the game. Like you touched on, the game was designed specifically to work with the official GameCube controller. It doesn't matter if someone doesn't value performing tech skill on a GameCube controller because that's a skill that the game tests. To try to circumvent this skill with a different controller is, to me, comparable to modifying the game's code to circumvent other forms of skill.

Is there a philosophical difference between modifying controllers and modifying the game's code or programming? Let's say that on one hand, we have a player who modified his controller to send the specific set of shield drop coordinates when he presses the D-pad. This is essentially what the Smash Box does and is the type of digital input for analog control mod that people are arguing over. On the other hand, we have a player who modified his version of Melee so that when the game reads a downward D-pad input, it performs a shield drop. There is certainly no functional difference between these two mods, but proponents of the Smash Box and other third party controllers would have you believe that the former is legitimate while the latter is not.

Ironically, the latter is actually the most fair because at least both players would have access to the shield drop button. When the modifications are taking place inside the controllers themselves, there is not even a remote semblance of fairness. Gravy and other proponents of the Smash Box have really been hammering away at the fact that the GameCube controller is inconsistent. If this were really the main issue, why wouldn't the solution come in the form of modding the game where everyone could benefit from the easier inputs? You could certainly mod Melee so that the D-pad causes certain inputs like perfect angles or instant shield drops.

The reason this would never catch on is simply that people intuitively understand that modding the game to play differently is fundamentally changing what game we're actually playing and leads to "subjective opinions" defining all of the skills our game tests. Modding the code to make shield drops or angles easier because people don't value tech skill could just as easily apply to character balance. (e.g. "The majority of the community doesn't value the skill of Sheik's chain grab, therefore we're going to mod all NTSC setups to play with her PAL down throw.") Unfortunately, a lot of people get duped into thinking modding the controllers used to play the game does not equate to changing the game in the same exact way when it clearly does.
I actually agree with you about most of what you said here as well. I guess I just wanted to frame my post in such a way that it wouldn't step on the toes of anyone who does believe that input method is arbitrary, and that decision making within a match is the predominately important skill that we should be testing. I wanted people who do feel that any alternative controller should be legal as long as it follows a certain set of rules (no macros or whatever is decided) to still ask themselves exactly how much they value or don't value tech skill and be able to explain why they think it is or is not important to the Melee community.

I guess it could be theoretically be decided by the community that the gamecube controller is entirely optional, although I strongly feel that would be a detriment to our scene as a whole.
 

DYLirious94

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
39
And for this last portion, I'd say that if we had options for gamecube controllers that were of different dimensions to better accommodate people's varying hand sizes, this would be more similar to players using tennis rackets of different dimensions, because a tennis racket, regardless of size is still going to function and be used mechanically in the exact same way, where as the gamecube controller and the Smash Box will not.
Yes but say you tighten your strings on your tennis racket to 20lbs (idk anything about tennis) while i have mine at 10lbs, we both hit the tennis ball but yours makes it easier to hit hard while mine is easier to hit the ball softly.
Now with controllers its the same thing..easier to pivot uptilt on SB but i can arial drift easier with my GC controller.

Edit: also with tighter strings you dont have to swing as hard which technically changes how hard you swing
 
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Fashion

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
24
Yes but say you tighten your strings on your tennis racket to 20lbs (idk anything about tennis) while i have mine at 10lbs, we both hit the tennis ball but yours makes it easier to hit hard while mine is easier to hit the ball softly.
Now with controllers its the same thing..easier to pivot uptilt on SB but i can arial drift easier with my GC controller.

Edit: also with tighter strings you dont have to swing as hard which technically changes how hard you swing
I would actually say what you suggest, adjusting the stringing of your tennis racket, would be more like adjusting the springs in your gamecube controller triggers, or maybe adjusting the snap back on your control stick. You and I would both be using the same controller, gamecube controller, and using the same physical motions to achieve our goals within the game, but you would have made adjustments to your controller to make certain things easier. At the end of the day, we'd still be using the same equipment.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
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Jarrettsville, MD
Yes but say you tighten your strings on your tennis racket to 20lbs (idk anything about tennis) while i have mine at 10lbs, we both hit the tennis ball but yours makes it easier to hit hard while mine is easier to hit the ball softly.
Now with controllers its the same thing..easier to pivot uptilt on SB but i can arial drift easier with my GC controller.

Edit: also with tighter strings you dont have to swing as hard which technically changes how hard you swing
Tennis, like most modern sports, is quite old and has seen many different variations. Because most sports did not start out with a strict standard for what equipment is allowed, players would utilize the best equipment possible to gain an edge. What makes equipment better? One factor is obviously ease of use. Equipment that is designed to be easy tends to be powerful in competition because it allows for unnatural consistency. This is something Gravy brings up a lot; he loves how consistently he is able to perform tech on the Smash Box because it is easier. It simply takes less skill.

Whether other aspects of the controller are more difficult to use is irrelevant. If I mod my game so that Falco's bair is stronger, people would rightfully complain that I'm changing the game to gain an advantage. Me pointing out that it's harder to combo with my new strong bair does not justify the advantages I gain, and even if I had made the opposite change of weakening my bair to strengthen my combo game, it still is not justified. No amount of drawbacks can justify modifying the game, and in the same way, no amount of drawbacks can justify modding a controller that is inherently part of the game we play as much as a tennis racket or baseball bat is part of their respective sports. The only reason these variances in equipment are present in other games is, as I explained at the beginning of this post, a result of a lack of standardization during the inception of these sports.

I recommend taking glances through articles about the history of other sports equipment just to get an idea of how well controlled (or not) standardization was, and also see some funky modifications that were shot down due to many of the same competitive principles the Smash Box violates. I've read about swim suits, track shoes, and tennis rackets, but I think my favorite parallel to controller mods is probably the "banana bat" in baseball. There were restrictions in place that ultimately prevented them from catching on, but the thing I really try to stress to people during these discussions is that determining and enforcing competitive standards is hard even with an established organization. With a grassroots community that has thousands of different individuals running tournaments all over the world, it's borderline impossible because the only way standards work is if there's widespread agreement. Even if you have an online strawpoll where 90% of people agree that mods A, B, and C should be allowed, but mod D should be banned, you can still be damn sure that some TOs out there will let players use mod D because once you agree some modifications are okay, which ones are allowed is totally arbitrary and dependent on the personal values and biases of each individual TO.

Simply reading an argument about analog to digital conversion totally upends the concept of macros as we traditionally knew them, and there's bound to be future mods that our ruleset simply won't account for. One example I've been toying around with is a controller with a dial input method. Can I put a volume knob on my controller and map it to the B button? I would still be manually performing the input by spinning it so it's not a macro or turbo function, and it would still fall in line with the 1:1 button mapping rule, but the reality is the effect it has is extremely unfair. I can get max height down-Bs with the Mario Bros. simply by spinning it a little. I have little faith that the community will be capable of coming up with universal standards to deal with all of these unique, individual mods that people can come up with, and given that we already have a spectacular standard of a specific controller that the game was designed around, it seems foolish to try to expand beyond that.

Fun articles:
The Past and Future of the Baseball Bat
Will Next-Gen Running Shoes Be Banned
The Evolution of the Tennis Racket
Why Ban Full-Body Olympics Swimsuits?
 
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DYLirious94

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
39
So should shield drop notches and the like be banned aswell? How is that going to be policed especially when the shallow, barely sanded ones, are hard to even tell they are there? What then..not every controller is the same...hence the shield drop notches in the first place. The relevance of this mod and the other notches along with button changeouts all come into discussion when you discuss something that makes the game easier or harder.
 

Bones0

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So should shield drop notches and the like be banned aswell? How is that going to be policed especially when the shallow, barely sanded ones, are hard to even tell they are there? What then..not every controller is the same...hence the shield drop notches in the first place. The relevance of this mod and the other notches along with button changeouts all come into discussion when you discuss something that makes the game easier or harder.
First, I think it's important to acknowledge that the controller is NOT supposed to shield drop at the notches as Kadano explains in this video. It does not seem like a coincidence that one of the most precise techniques in the game occurs just below notches instead of right at them, but of course, when you have controllers that come out of the box calibrated to shield drop at a notch because the gate is shifted, it creates a level of unfairness with controllers that is not desirable. Since testing unmodified controllers to see how their notches are calibrated is borderline impossible logistically at tournaments, it seems like the best compromise is to simply allow everyone to adjust their notches for the shield drop zone. Luckily, I think we can use the debug tools we currently have to ensure people do not go overboard with any sort of notching by agreeing on a set of coordinates that is an acceptable range. Any controller that achieves values outside this set can be considered a mod, and banned. If you think your opponent's notches look questionable, it's a simple matter of having them plug it into a 20xx setup and checking the values.

As far as custom notches are concerned, that is, adding more than 8 notches or moving the notches more than the very slight amount necessary for calibrating shield drops, those should be banned. Again, you can use 20xx to see what values the notches are at and anything more than a few units above or below the shield drop angle will be banned. All of the sides of the gate must be flat. Just for reference, this is a picture of one of Kadano's controllers that has be recalibrated to shield drop at the notches. It looks basically untouched, so any notable changes to the controllers gate should be relatively easy to identify just by getting a close look at it. This may all sound difficult to enforce, but the reality is most people do not want to cheat, and for those who do, they only need to be caught once for them to face serious consequences. I find it unlikely any notable players will risk using gates with very subtle notches that break the rules just so it's slightly easier to hit certain angles.
 
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Fashion

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Messages
24
First, I think it's important to acknowledge that the controller is NOT supposed to shield drop at the notches as Kadano explains in this video. It does not seem like a coincidence that one of the most precise techniques in the game occurs just below notches instead of right at them, but of course, when you have controllers that come out of the box calibrated to shield drop at a notch because the gate is shifted, it creates a level of unfairness with controllers that is not desirable. Since testing unmodified controllers to see how their notches are calibrated is borderline impossible logistically at tournaments, it seems like the best compromise is to simply allow everyone to adjust their notches for the shield drop zone. Luckily, I think we can use the debug tools we currently have to ensure people do not go overboard with any sort of notching by agreeing on a set of coordinates that is an acceptable range. Any controller that achieves values outside this set can be considered a mod, and banned. If you think your opponent's notches look questionable, it's a simple matter of having them plug it into a 20xx setup and checking the values.

As far as custom notches are concerned, that is, adding more than 8 notches or moving the notches more than the very slight amount necessary for calibrating shield drops, those should be banned. Again, you can use 20xx to see what values the notches are at and anything more than a few units above or below the shield drop angle will be banned. All of the sides of the gate must be flat. Just for reference, this is a picture of one of Kadano's controllers that has be recalibrated to shield drop at the notches. It looks basically untouched, so any notable changes to the controllers gate should be relatively easy to identify just by getting a close look at it. This may all sound difficult to enforce, but the reality is most people do not want to cheat, and for those who do, they only need to be caught once for them to face serious consequences. I find it unlikely any notable players will risk using gates with very subtle notches that break the rules just so it's slightly easier to hit certain angles.
Precisely. I think a lot of times when the argument is brought up that we can't ban mods anymore, because mods like Kadano notches already exist, people are missing the fact that these mods, in the majority of cases, are simply attempting to achieve for all gamecube controllers what some can already do naturally due to manufacturing. I personally am OK with any mod that helps bring all gamecube controllers up to the level that some of them can already meet out of the box.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Smashbox requires the same level of tech skill in a different way, some things easier, some things harder.

I don't want to get into this argument, but one thing I want bring attention to, are the players that do not like the GC controllers' design (like me). I use CC pro, and cannot fathom my c stick down south like that, or my buttons in that weird *** layout.

If people started making adapters for GC, or making different shaped GC controllers, way more people could get into it.

Would also like to to say this is the only competitive game where the player has only one controller option to use. Smashbox may not be the right execution, but it's in the right direction.
 
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-ACE-

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Although the amount of skill required to use a controller at high level isn't quantifiable, it's undeniably impossible for two types of controllers to require the exact same amount of skill. It can be argued that there are trade offs in certain areas of gameplay, but in the end, one way HAS to be easier overall than the other. The community even accepts that no 2 gamecube controllers require the dame exact amount of skill to be proficient at high level. The ease of SDI with the smashbox is an obvious real issue imo, and is enough by itself to be a good argument against the legality of it's use. I'm actually not saying i think it should be illegal. I haven't given this enough thought and have no experience with the smashbox so my opinion cannot be conclusive. But I believe there is a solid argument for it being unfair.
 

Bones0

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Smashbox requires the same level of tech skill in a different way, some things easier, some things harder.

I don't want to get into this argument, but one thing I want bring attention to, are the players that do not like the GC controllers' design (like me). I use CC pro, and cannot fathom my c stick down south like that, or my buttons in that weird *** layout.

If people started making adapters for GC, or making different shaped GC controllers, way more people could get into it.

Would also like to to say this is the only competitive game where the player has only one controller option to use. Smashbox may not be the right execution, but it's in the right direction.
Let's say I grant you the fact that Smash Box requires the same level of tech skill (which I think is ridiculous, but w/e). Even if that were the case, the skills it requires aren't inherent to the game of Melee. If I built an AI robot that visually identified characters on the screen and then performed inputs for me, it doesn't matter how much skill it takes to program that kind of AI. It could require 10x more skill than becoming the best in the world, but it still doesn't justify me using AI in a tournament when people are trying to test a specific set of skills. Using modded controllers is simply a way of avoiding learning certain skills, so whether it takes skill to circumvent the ones Melee is based on is irrelevant to the discussion.

If a baseball player doesn't like the design of a baseball bat, should he be allowed to design his own and use it in competition? Should track and field athletes be allowed to use whatever shoes they want, even if it's these?

It's not necessarily the only sport with a single controller. Some fighting games are played on cabinet in which case you have to use a traditional stick and button configuration. When Halo 1 and 2 were in MLG, you had to use official Xbox controllers as well. You weren't allowed to add buttons like some people tried to for performing certain techniques more easily. The only reason most games allow for multiple controllers is because there's so little regulation. That doesn't mean it's fair, especially in Melee's case where the new controller is being introduced 15 years into the game's life.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Let's say I grant you the fact that Smash Box requires the same level of tech skill (which I think is ridiculous, but w/e). Even if that were the case, the skills it requires aren't inherent to the game of Melee. If I built an AI robot that visually identified characters on the screen and then performed inputs for me, it doesn't matter how much skill it takes to program that kind of AI. It could require 10x more skill than becoming the best in the world, but it still doesn't justify me using AI in a tournament when people are trying to test a specific set of skills. Using modded controllers is simply a way of avoiding learning certain skills, so whether it takes skill to circumvent the ones Melee is based on is irrelevant to the discussion.

If a baseball player doesn't like the design of a baseball bat, should he be allowed to design his own and use it in competition? Should track and field athletes be allowed to use whatever shoes they want, even if it's these?

It's not necessarily the only sport with a single controller. Some fighting games are played on cabinet in which case you have to use a traditional stick and button configuration. When Halo 1 and 2 were in MLG, you had to use official Xbox controllers as well. You weren't allowed to add buttons like some people tried to for performing certain techniques more easily. The only reason most games allow for multiple controllers is because there's so little regulation. That doesn't mean it's fair, especially in Melee's case where the new controller is being introduced 15 years into the game's life.
This is somewhat old, but I wondered if I responded to this. Guess I didn't.

Except this isn't just a "modded controller," it's an entirely different controller on its own. Such a design can't be considered just a upgrade or improvement since there will be drawbacks to the design. Sticks vs pads in the FGC has had this superiority debate where they argued which controller was superior. It turns out, they're relatively even. Sticks are better for hitting buttons due to layout, but pads had their Dpad and analog stick for quick and silent movements. Now, sticks ARE slightly superior, but comfort comes before all that. The same could very well be for GC vs Smashbox (relatively even pros and cons).

LOL, if we want to keep things 1:1, it'll be like me trying to play tennis, but there only being One racket type. There are different tennis rackets for different people, because the organizations know people are made up differently and like different things. Simply can't be argued against.

Regulation shouldn't stick people into just ONE controller type. I should be able to choose between, Xbox 360, Xbox one, PS3, ps4, CC pro, , CC original, Keyboard, etc... And as a matter of fact, making people only able to use one controller is unfair since people are of different shapes and sizes, and one person that is comfortable on GC, another will think it's too big, too small, button layout is ********, c stick was positioned brainlessly, etc...
 
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-ACE-

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You can consistently input SDI a number of times with the smashbox that is humanly impossible with the 15 year standard gc controller. There's no trade off to make up for this.
 

Bones0

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This is somewhat old, but I wondered if I responded to this. Guess I didn't.

Except this isn't just a "modded controller," it's an entirely different controller on its own. Such a design can't be considered just a upgrade or improvement since there will be drawbacks to the design. Sticks vs pads in the FGC has had this superiority debate where they argued which controller was superior. It turns out, they're relatively even. Sticks are better for hitting buttons due to layout, but pads had their Dpad and analog stick for quick and silent movements. Now, sticks ARE slightly superior, but comfort comes before all that. The same could very well be for GC vs Smashbox (relatively even pros and cons).

LOL, if we want to keep things 1:1, it'll be like me trying to play tennis, but there only being One racket type. There are different tennis rackets for different people, because the organizations know people are made up differently and like different things. Simply can't be argued against.

Regulation shouldn't stick people into just ONE controller type. I should be able to choose between, Xbox 360, Xbox one, PS3, ps4, CC pro, , CC original, Keyboard, etc... And as a matter of fact, making people only able to use one controller is unfair since people are of different shapes and sizes, and one person that is comfortable on GC, another will think it's too big, too small, button layout is ********, c stick was positioned brainlessly, etc...
Did you read my second post in this thread? I feel like I sufficiently addressed most of the arguments you brought up. If you would like me to clarify anything just let me know, but I'll respond to your last paragraph.

Requiring everyone to use the same controller is fair by the very definition. People are different shapes and sizes in sports, but this is hardly justification for allowing short players to use springed shoes in a game of basketball. As soon as you allow players to decide what equipment they can use based on their perceived shortcomings, you are allowing them to alter which skills they are being tested for.

I'm not really seeing what this even has to do with the discussion of modded controllers because no one is claiming they're physically unable to reach the C-stick. The Smashbox totally alters the skills required to play the game; it isn't just making it more accessible to people. If you are uncomfortable using a GameCube controller, that's unfortunate because Melee revolves around GameCube controller skills. Being uncomfortable with a controller doesn't justify using modded ones any more than being uncomfortable using an Xbox controller would justify using a mouse and keyboard in a Halo tournament.
 

Xyzz

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Requiring everyone to use the same controller is fair by the very definition. People are different shapes and sizes in sports, but this is hardly justification for allowing short players to use springed shoes in a game of basketball.
Forcing everybody to compete on the same controller is like forcing every basketball player to use the same shoe size.
I don't think that analogy makes a lot of sense for either side ;)
 
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