Alternative way to ledge stall.

[AugsEU]

This is another way to stall with Sheik. I don't know what this is called. It is almost the same as the Shino stall, except that you don't do the explosion part of the Sheik UpB, you grab the ledge before that happens.

Here is a video demonstrating it:

Note: I could only pull it off perfectly once, so I edited it a bit to show you what it would look like if you were to do it repeatedly.

You do stay invincible if you do it perfectly. Inputs: Down(Fast fall), UpB

Pros:
- Faster than Shino stall.
- Inputs are easier

Cons:
- No hitbox
- Timing is harder

 

[Jmook11]

I do that all the time! Yea its alot faster than the actual shino stall, im not sure what its called though. Im sure pro sheiks use shino stall since it has a hit box

 

[AugsEU]

The fact that it is faster makes it better for refreshing invincibility. Also, it means that you can be faster to act; the opportunity to act comes up more often.

 

[Jmook11]

I completely agree.it should definitely be implemented. I dont know why it hasnr yet....

 

[AugsEU]

It is quite hard to time perfectly is the problem, and the reward is not substantial. But with 20XX coming around, the small things like this will need to be done.

 

[Scroll]

I have stumbled upon this a few times but never gave it some real thought. I'd love to try and learn the inputs needed.
Have you tried doing this in Develop mode and frame advance to see how large of a window we got to input the UpB?

 

[Low5_]

That hard part is letting go of the edge on the first frame possible.

 

[AugsEU]

Time taken to stall:
35 frames

Frames of Invincibility:
36 frames

Basically, from when you first grab the edge, you must have pressed UpB by 18 frames.

 

[Gいたん]

Im sure the reason people Shino stall instead of doing this is because Vanish's explosion's hitbox threatens opponents trying to approach you or get close to you at the ledge. The hitbox covers a good amount of space between the ledge and the edge of the stage.
If they get too close you can hit them with the explosion and do a ledge hop followup like ledge hop onto stage > Up air/ Back air, or you can just get onstage for free and then they're at a disadvantage and getting bodied. So it helps you get back onstage safely and it can also help you get a free punish.
The only thing i could see this being better for is keeping your invincibility while tryring to edge hog someone who are farther offstage. Otherwise, having an invincible stall + that safety hitbox that comes with it is a lot better

 

[AugsEU]

Not really saying that this is better than the Shino stall. Just that you can use it in different situations. The use for this is similar to the use for hax dashing. You can act often, and they don't know when you will act.

 

[Duplighost]

Looks cool!

Does anyone know if this is feasible on Smash 4?

 

[Jmook11]

Not really saying that this is better than the Shino stall. Just that you can use it in different situations. The use for this is similar to the use for hax dashing. You can act often, and they don't know when you will act.

Could not be said better!

 

[Gいたん]

Not really saying that this is better than the Shino stall. Just that you can use it in different situations. The use for this is similar to the use for hax dashing. You can act often, and they don't know when you will act.

Ayyy i never thought of it like that, that is pretty cool. I was just saying what my post said in response to "Why hasnt it been applied yet?" because usually if there is a better option thats what people stick to through and through. I'll start trying to use this and possibly come back with some results or more ideas for it if i find any.

 

[NastyNard]

I'm pretty sure this is actually a common technique. I guess not many people use it to actually be frame-perfectly invincible, but I use it a lot when I want to mix up the timing of my stalls, and it's very good for situations where you're on the edge against a character who's giving you a hard time getting back on stage.

*cough* Marth *cough*

 

[Gいたん]

I'm pretty sure this is actually a common technique. I guess not many people use it to actually be frame-perfectly invincible, but I use it a lot when I want to mix up the timing of my stalls, and it's very good for situations where you're on the edge against a character who's giving you a hard time getting back on stage.

*cough* Marth *cough*

yeah it is common, i never knew any potential uses for it even while invincible but with these suggestions its worth a try to get it down i guess

 

[NastyNard]

yeah it is common, i never knew any potential uses for it even while invincible but with these suggestions its worth a try to get it down i guess

Yeah I'd definitely think of it as a mixup as opposed to a true stalling method. It's also good for edgeguarding when you need to refresh invincibility and a shino is too slow and you need something a little safer than a double-jump regrab.

 

[Low5_]

Looks cool!

Does anyone know if this is feasible on Smash 4?

Not in the slightest.

 

[Seal]

Looks cool!

Does anyone know if this is feasible on Smash 4?

No. In smash 4 if you regrab the ledge without landing on stage, you do not get invincibility.

 

[B0MB]

Seems like it would be hard to do, but with practice, this could be the best method. Good find!

 

[Scroll]

If you look for it you can see many many top level players utilize this. It's not new, but I guess we haven't discussed it before.
It's maybe hard to keep the intangibility up all the time but it's still really fast either way.
I'll try and incorporate it in my game as a mixup to Shino stalling which I still don't use much.

 

[Luma]

Cons:
- No hitbox

not always a con, against peach and marth for example you dont want a hitbox

ice used to do that alot when he was playing sheik

 

[tauKhan]

This is very useful for mixing up your ledge grab timings, and making it hard for your opponent to steal the ledge from you. Also it's easier to time regrab for edgeguarding, since the cycle is faster.

Maintaining intangibility is actually precisely as easy as during regular shino stall, since you still use the same move. You have 13 frame window to let go off ledge and start the up b, where as in most ledge stalls, such as fox's upb, the player must drop off the edge frame perfectly to stay fully intangible.

 

[AugsEU]

Maintaining intangibility is actually precisely as easy as during regular shino stall, since you still use the same move. You have 13 frame window to let go off ledge and start the up b, where as in most ledge stalls, such as fox's upb, the player must drop off the edge frame perfectly to stay fully intangible.

Not as easy as the Shino stall, because you can't press UpB whenever you want, you have to get low enough to be able to regrab. There are a few frames where you could UpB when falling, if you are doing the Shino Stall, you can, but not with this stall.

Also, I tested, and you do need to get off the ledge as soon as you can. I will post a video. If you don't let go fast enough, you won't be low enough to regrab.

 

[tauKhan]

@ AugsEU yeah, the fast upb ledgegrab is harder and more precise to perform than regular shino stall. What I meant (and said) is that maintaining intangibility isn't any harder (it's very hard with most other stalls) during this as long as you actually get the regrab.

 

[AugsEU]

You are saying that the timing is the same?

 

[tauKhan]

You're right, I'm ******** haha. Of course the fact that it takes time for you to drop low enough shortens the input window. I have no idea how many frames it takes to drop low enough. Might even be impossible to stay fully intangible.

 

[AugsEU]

As you can see in the video you can stay fully intangible. I worked out the frames aswell, and you have 2 frames to get off the ledge:

Time taken to stall:
35 frames

Frames of Invincibility:
36 frames

 

[tauKhan]

35 frames cycle on a stall isn't even possible with any other char than link. This is because you can drop off the edge on 9th (5th for Link, I don't know why) frame the earliest, after which you cannot regrab the edge for the following 29 frames (Disabled Regrab Period). So the shortest cycle is 8+29 frames = 37.

To determine the window for error, I need to know how many frames sheik takes to ff low enough for up b regrab. To stay intangible, you need to upb during the first 13 during which dropping off the edge is possible.

 

[AugsEU]

Yeah, my method of doing this wasn't very accurate. But I am 100% certain that you can stay intangible.
I tested it again, maybe these numbers are more accurate:
Ledge Grab:459
End: 499
Cycle: 40

Let go: 564
UpB: 572
Fast-Fall Time:8

Assuming that you don't count the ledge grab animation, you have 5 frames of edge time. (But that doesn't seem right)
To get these numbers, I have used Dolphin with 20XX and frame advance.


Slow motion video:

But really I think it would be good if someone who knew what they were doing with TAS could confirm this.