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All New Game Mechanic Information (Post-PAX)

OptimistNic

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I would like to dedicate a single thread to all the discoveries that have been made from various people over the past few days, whether it be at a Nintendo Tour demo or at the closed press event demo at PAX Prime. It is better to share all known information on this thread than to break it into various threads.

EDIT: I am aware that nobody is allowed to share anything from the final build shown at the closed event. The thread is dedicated to information shared from apparent updated versions of the E3 demo build that has been shared recently.
 
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KaZe_DaRKWIND

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Considering the fact that the only people who saw the final build were in that closed event and aren't allowed to talk about it, this thread is pointless.
 
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Captain Norris

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Considering the fact that the only people who saw the final build were in that closed event and aren't allowed to talk about it, this thread is pointless.
Not necessarily. There are theories that the e3 build was updated with final build mechanics sine people have begun to find autocancels on aerials and such
 

OptimistNic

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Not necessarily. There are theories that the e3 build was updated with final build mechanics sine people have begun to find autocancels on aerials and such
Exactly. This thread is dedicated to information from the updated demo build.
 

Ganreizu

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Not necessarily. There are theories that the e3 build was updated with final build mechanics sine people have begun to find autocancels on aerials and such
Auto cancels were already in the E3 build. VGBootcamp has had countless videos documenting this since the best buy event.

There's also no way and more importantly no reason to update the E3 build. It's either a newer build or the same build.
 

Captain Norris

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Auto cancels were already in the E3 build. VGBootcamp has had countless videos documenting this since the best buy event.

There's also no way and more importantly no reason to update the E3 build. It's either a newer build or the same build.
Already one thread has been made made of the new info found.Other things have been tested and discovered @ Azizibesmashing Azizibesmashing made it and can vouch for this.
It is more than likely updated since it consists of the same characters and stages. it would be easier to update one than make an entirely new build. All we gotta do is see mega-man's face in his Final Smash honestly. :p
 

Reila

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I am only hoping stuff like L-cancelling, Wavedashing and other pointless Melee stuff isn't present in the final build ^^''
 

Captain Norris

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I am only hoping stuff like L-cancelling, Wavedashing and other pointless Melee stuff isn't present in the final build ^^''
There is something of the sort of L-cancelling in the build, but it is different. Check out this thread: http://smashboards.com/posts/17455632/
EDIT: Out of curiosity, why don't you want those elements?
 
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Ganreizu

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Already one thread has been made made of the new info found.Other things have been tested and discovered @ Azizibesmashing Azizibesmashing made it and can vouch for this.
It is more than likely updated since it consists of the same characters and stages. it would be easier to update one than make an entirely new build.
I'm not doubting on a new build being in circulation. Just that it should be recognized that certain mechanics were already in place in the E3 build and we should be aware of what was there if we're going to just go ahead and say it's an updated build. If i understand correctly, there was the E3 build as well as a more finalized build at PAX at the same time.
 

Captain Norris

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I'm not doubting on a new build being in circulation. Just that it should be recognized that certain mechanics were already in place in the E3 build and we should be aware of what was there if we're going to just go ahead and say it's an updated build. If i understand correctly, there was the E3 build as well as a more finalized build at PAX at the same time.
That is true. Maybe it is better to say these mechanics were more tested to their limits this time around.
 

Azizibesmashing

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Already one thread has been made made of the new info found.Other things have been tested and discovered @ Azizibesmashing Azizibesmashing made it and can vouch for this.
It is more than likely updated since it consists of the same characters and stages. it would be easier to update one than make an entirely new build. All we gotta do is see mega-man's face in his Final Smash honestly. :p
vouching right now!
 

Raijinken

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Out of curiosity, why don't you want those elements?
They add an unnecessary technical barrier to decent play, and stem from unnatural input followups. Especially L-canceling, which does nothing but prevent you from being able to compete well if you can't time the shield button with your landing 100% of the time.

In short, because they're not needed to make the game deep, they just make it harder.

I'm all for any mechanics that are intuitive (though not necessarily blatant) and add some thought depth to the game, but making things tricky for the sake of giving people something to hurt their fingers on does not help the game.
 
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Kuraudo

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See, I'd be fine without L-Cancelling, but the thing is? Casual players will NOT know the difference and just smack one another around in free-for-alls or set their own rules and stuff. It's not like it's an integral part of the game to have fun. It never was in Melee, and while I'm a HUGE advocate for Brawl (as it was my main game since its release up to last year), it's a mistake they made in taking away so much stuff. Also, people that naysay advanced techniques of any kind that we find and say that taking away anything 'harder' can still be deep? Smash Bros. gains its depth from what we the players discover.

64 for it from full-attack animations being cancelled and utilizing intense DI to escape 0-death combos as well as exploiting wall bounces for certain combos on places like Hyrule Castle.

Melee got it from wavedashing, shield dropping, l-cancelling (though that's less an exploit and more an advanced technique even the official team recognized), moonwalking, etc.

Brawl got the power to DACUS and glide toss, along with cancelling mobility with moving platforms (making certain follow-ups and chases even better) with the DAir cancels on platforms, B-DACUS, etc.

Without all of that, we'd have a brain dead game where if we wanted tournaments to happen, they'd be boring without the ability to push our characters to their limits, in my opinion.

That's the difference between casual gameplay where people don't care and just have fun- and us, the players that have fun but get hype over how we use these techniques with our characters to WIN. Ain't no wrong way to play Smash Bros., but take away anything that's "hard" about competitive Smash Bros. and it loses a lot of its competitive depth.
 

Raijinken

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See, I'd be fine without L-Cancelling, but the thing is? Casual players will NOT know the difference and just smack one another around in free-for-alls or set their own rules and stuff. It's not like it's an integral part of the game to have fun. It never was in Melee, and while I'm a HUGE advocate for Brawl (as it was my main game since its release up to last year), it's a mistake they made in taking away so much stuff. Also, people that naysay advanced techniques of any kind that we find and say that taking away anything 'harder' can still be deep? Smash Bros. gains its depth from what we the players discover.

64 for it from full-attack animations being cancelled and utilizing intense DI to escape 0-death combos as well as exploiting wall bounces for certain combos on places like Hyrule Castle.

Melee got it from wavedashing, shield dropping, l-cancelling (though that's less an exploit and more an advanced technique even the official team recognized), moonwalking, etc.

Brawl got the power to DACUS and glide toss, along with cancelling mobility with moving platforms (making certain follow-ups and chases even better) with the DAir cancels on platforms, B-DACUS, etc.

Without all of that, we'd have a brain dead game where if we wanted tournaments to happen, they'd be boring without the ability to push our characters to their limits, in my opinion.

That's the difference between casual gameplay where people don't care and just have fun- and us, the players that have fun but get hype over how we use these techniques with our characters to WIN. Ain't no wrong way to play Smash Bros., but take away anything that's "hard" about competitive Smash Bros. and it loses a lot of its competitive depth.
The issue is not for casuals, but for borderline players who want to improve to a higher tier, and simply cannot because of arbitrary and unnecessary technical barriers. Not everyone can be classified as an items-hazards-FFA-Stamina-Reflect-Giant player or a no-items-fox-only-final-destination player. There are plenty in between, and a sizable portion of the playerbase wants to be able to grow at the game. There are a million other fighters that require frame-specific inputs, Smash was designed (and thrives) on input simplicity.

There are plenty of options for depth-improving advanced techniques without the need to make them frame-specific or rely on what would look for all intents and purposes like a glitch. Pivot tilting and aerial autocancels are good examples of those. Wavedashing and L-canceling are examples of the opposite. Wavedashing brings a lot, but if it wasn't a physics blip that was discovered and let slide to see what would happen, there could be other ways to implement it that aren't nearly so precise and, depending on the extent of a character's reliance (such as Fox or Falco in Melee), physically taxing.
 

Kuraudo

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The issue is not for casuals, but for borderline players who want to improve to a higher tier, and simply cannot because of arbitrary and unnecessary technical barriers. Not everyone can be classified as an items-hazards-FFA-Stamina-Reflect-Giant player or a no-items-fox-only-final-destination player. There are plenty in between, and a sizable portion of the playerbase wants to be able to grow at the game. There are a million other fighters that require frame-specific inputs, Smash was designed (and thrives) on input simplicity.

There are plenty of options for depth-improving advanced techniques without the need to make them frame-specific or rely on what would look for all intents and purposes like a glitch. Pivot tilting and aerial autocancels are good examples of those. Wavedashing and L-canceling are examples of the opposite. Wavedashing brings a lot, but if it wasn't a physics blip that was discovered and let slide to see what would happen, there could be other ways to implement it that aren't nearly so precise and, depending on the extent of a character's reliance (such as Fox or Falco in Melee), physically taxing.
I'm gonna be real with you, and I'm about to put a game that I absolutely love? On blast.

If we take away complexity but still demand a competitive game, we get something that leans towards what Project: M is right now. Project: M is TERRIBLE for this and how auto-combos are a snap. For a competitive game to thrive it can't be boring like that. Project: M is very easy to play due to auto-combos even without the need for wavedashing and L-Cancelling. That said, it's deep enough despite the flaws that I like it. Moving on.

Some characters are just going to be more technical than others. It's why Fox and Falco are only played by people who wanna put in the hard for for it. If you took away their complexity, what do you got? You've got Brawl mindgames instead and there's less technique and more reading your opponent. It's a good thing, but it's not the ONLY thing that makes a tournament-hype game good.

Me for example? I can do tech, but I am NOT a technical person on the level of spacies. I don't have the patience OR the skill yet for that, even though I like Fox and Falco as characters. So? I play Ganondorf and Sheik. I play Charizard and Roy in Project: M, I play Sonic in Brawl, I play Falcon in Smash 64.

Having the entire cast accessable and EASY to play (which is what I'm getting from what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong or putting words in your mouth), is NOT a good thing. It breeds a boring, casual game, and IMO, it also breeds something for the inbetween players. And when you're inbetween? You're gonna wanna get better and to get better? You have to beat the people that are more serious about it. And if you can't? That's your own fault because your skills with your character aren't there. You are either playing the wrong character or need to learn to cancel your attacks, or become a GOD of reading your opponent if you're not good with tech skill.

Even in Melee you didn't lose your input simplicity. Every move is available to you. It's just HOW you use those moves that counts. Thus, the deeper mechanics that take us further. This isn't some super duper high barrier or something to break through. Get your ass kicked by some better players and you'll learn or give up, but above all else? Have fun. We all do at all levels of the game.
 

Raijinken

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I'm gonna be real with you, and I'm about to put a game that I absolutely love? On blast.

If we take away complexity but still demand a competitive game, we get something that leans towards what Project: M is right now. Project: M is TERRIBLE for this and how auto-combos are a snap. For a competitive game to thrive it can't be boring like that. Project: M is very easy to play due to auto-combos even without the need for wavedashing and L-Cancelling. That said, it's deep enough despite the flaws that I like it. Moving on.

Some characters are just going to be more technical than others. It's why Fox and Falco are only played by people who wanna put in the hard for for it. If you took away their complexity, what do you got? You've got Brawl mindgames instead and there's less technique and more reading your opponent. It's a good thing, but it's not the ONLY thing that makes a tournament-hype game good.

Me for example? I can do tech, but I am NOT a technical person on the level of spacies. I don't have the patience OR the skill yet for that, even though I like Fox and Falco as characters. So? I play Ganondorf and Sheik. I play Charizard and Roy in Project: M, I play Sonic in Brawl, I play Falcon in Smash 64.

Having the entire cast accessable and EASY to play (which is what I'm getting from what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong or putting words in your mouth), is NOT a good thing. It breeds a boring, casual game, and IMO, it also breeds something for the inbetween players. And when you're inbetween? You're gonna wanna get better and to get better? You have to beat the people that are more serious about it. And if you can't? That's your own fault because your skills with your character aren't there. You are either playing the wrong character or need to learn to cancel your attacks, or become a GOD of reading your opponent if you're not good with tech skill.

Even in Melee you didn't lose your input simplicity. Every move is available to you. It's just HOW you use those moves that counts. Thus, the deeper mechanics that take us further. This isn't some super duper high barrier or something to break through. Get your *** kicked by some better players and you'll learn or give up, but above all else? Have fun. We all do at all levels of the game.
I currently consider Project M the (currently available) ideal version of Smash simply because it makes some of Melee's tricks either easier to do or at least apparent (like adding the flash to L-canceling).

And while I'm sure I often sound like I think everything should be absurdly easy, I really don't think that. Nor do I think that every character should be accessible and easy to play. However, I do think that the depth and entertainment factor in the game largely comes (at least to me) from watching a player's mastery of their character. Watching Sethlon play Roy, or watching M2K play Mario, or watching PinkFresh play Lucas - things like that are entertaining to me. Those players aren't just good at the "basics", they know their characters and their opponents, and outsmart them through application of their technique. I just think that the aforementioned technique was too difficult in many cases, widening a skill gap in a way I don't personally feel it should be widened.

To kinda break it out a bit more: The first survival technique that takes some practice is teching. It's a key ability, and failure to use it will get you killed against even an average non-competitive player, but its timing window is generous (20 frames), and while it is strong, it doesn't make you invincible for long. It sets up mind games that stem from that skill - tech chasing and whatnot.

Past that, I'm going to put the L-Cancel as the next gate (though your mileage may vary). Its timing is much tighter (1-7 frames in Melee) than that of teching, but on top of that, it is always the ideal choice (as you never WANT more endlag on your attacks, at least in any case I can think of), and thus adds no decisional depth. It is simply a matter of can you do it consistently or not, and failure to do so will keep your play perpetually below that of an otherwise identically skilled player who has mastered the technique.

And at the end of the series of skill gates, at least for this example, we have wavedashing. It's a useful skill, it opens all sorts of options for attack, approach, defense, and retreat, and whether or not it is useful or vital depends on your character. However, it acts as a technical barrier for those characters who do rely on it (such as the spacefurries), which is a situation that I feel is not good design. Now, if it were available on a character-by-character basis (like double jump canceling), I may feel differently about it, as it would be more a matter of learning advanced tricks with specific characters, rather than learning which characters can best exploit a basic mechanic. Making it universal and yet so valuable for only certain parts of the cast feels, to me, comparable to making only certain characters able to jump out of shield (which is often cited as an issue for Yoshi, as he lacks this ability).

In summation (or at least, I hope this is what it sounded like), an advanced technique should be somewhat generous in its execution, and should be at least close to equally relevant for all characters (otherwise the metagame often becomes biased). Character-specific techniques are great (and at least at a glance, are what Smash4 is using a lot of with Shulk, Robin, and Luma, to name a few we've seen), and allow players to show off skill and mastery with their characters beyond that which your average party player could grasp. That kind of skill (which, indeed, may well end up favoring certain characters) is what excites me the most - it makes the technical aspect of the game attainable but not inhibiting, while leaving plenty of room to mechanically and strategically outplay your opponent beyond simple reflexes. In other words, the basics should indeed be basic, and those basics should, in my opinion, be enough to fight on roughly even footing with an opponent. The rest of a player's advantage should come from knowledge and skill with their character in particular.

And no, I don't like the campy metagame that developed around Brawl, but there are ways to fix that without relying on quick aggressive techniques - weakening defensive options is a great way to start, and that does seem fairly evident in the endlag on air dodges amongst other things.

I'm hoping that Smash4's options and mechanics are strong enough to facilitate a primarily aggressive game, easy enough that the hardest part of the game should be the mental part, distributed enough to give every character a fair (if matchup- and stage-sensitive) chance, and obvious enough for an "average player" to discover without any external help (whether it's shown in a video or just usable by CPU players).
 

DairunCates

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Having the entire cast accessable and EASY to play (which is what I'm getting from what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong or putting words in your mouth), is NOT a good thing.
Just to jump in a bit here. I don't actually believe this is the point anyone is making. There was actually a lot of discussion of this on the complexity thread on the Wii U board, but the general consensus was that the general skill floor for a game should be fairly low but the skill ceiling can be fairly high before problems emerge.

...Which mostly translates to, "General techniques that are required by all players should be fairly easy to input while some characters should individually be more difficult to reward technical play". So, I don't think I've seen anyone disparage characters with harder gameplay and getting rewarded with unique and interesting options for it. The argument is more for a focus on difficulty within individual characters. If I want to be competitive in Smash 4, but I suck at controlling Rosalina and Luma because of the puppet master aspect, it doesn't count me completely out of being competitive, it just counts me out of using Rosalina and Luma.

Also, to be honest, I can't think of a single fighting game off the top of my head that has a technique that is as hard to input as wavedashing that is required by every player on virtually every character to be competitive. I certainly can think of some that exist for individual characters, but none that are required by the vast majority of base characters to play.
 

Kuraudo

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I currently consider Project M the (currently available) ideal version of Smash simply because it makes some of Melee's tricks either easier to do or at least apparent (like adding the flash to L-canceling).

And while I'm sure I often sound like I think everything should be absurdly easy, I really don't think that. Nor do I think that every character should be accessible and easy to play. However, I do think that the depth and entertainment factor in the game largely comes (at least to me) from watching a player's mastery of their character. Watching Sethlon play Roy, or watching M2K play Mario, or watching PinkFresh play Lucas - things like that are entertaining to me. Those players aren't just good at the "basics", they know their characters and their opponents, and outsmart them through application of their technique. I just think that the aforementioned technique was too difficult in many cases, widening a skill gap in a way I don't personally feel it should be widened.

To kinda break it out a bit more: The first survival technique that takes some practice is teching. It's a key ability, and failure to use it will get you killed against even an average non-competitive player, but its timing window is generous (20 frames), and while it is strong, it doesn't make you invincible for long. It sets up mind games that stem from that skill - tech chasing and whatnot.

Past that, I'm going to put the L-Cancel as the next gate (though your mileage may vary). Its timing is much tighter (1-7 frames in Melee) than that of teching, but on top of that, it is always the ideal choice (as you never WANT more endlag on your attacks, at least in any case I can think of), and thus adds no decisional depth. It is simply a matter of can you do it consistently or not, and failure to do so will keep your play perpetually below that of an otherwise identically skilled player who has mastered the technique.

And at the end of the series of skill gates, at least for this example, we have wavedashing. It's a useful skill, it opens all sorts of options for attack, approach, defense, and retreat, and whether or not it is useful or vital depends on your character. However, it acts as a technical barrier for those characters who do rely on it (such as the spacefurries), which is a situation that I feel is not good design. Now, if it were available on a character-by-character basis (like double jump canceling), I may feel differently about it, as it would be more a matter of learning advanced tricks with specific characters, rather than learning which characters can best exploit a basic mechanic. Making it universal and yet so valuable for only certain parts of the cast feels, to me, comparable to making only certain characters able to jump out of shield (which is often cited as an issue for Yoshi, as he lacks this ability).

In summation (or at least, I hope this is what it sounded like), an advanced technique should be somewhat generous in its execution, and should be at least close to equally relevant for all characters (otherwise the metagame often becomes biased). Character-specific techniques are great (and at least at a glance, are what Smash4 is using a lot of with Shulk, Robin, and Luma, to name a few we've seen), and allow players to show off skill and mastery with their characters beyond that which your average party player could grasp. That kind of skill (which, indeed, may well end up favoring certain characters) is what excites me the most - it makes the technical aspect of the game attainable but not inhibiting, while leaving plenty of room to mechanically and strategically outplay your opponent beyond simple reflexes. In other words, the basics should indeed be basic, and those basics should, in my opinion, be enough to fight on roughly even footing with an opponent. The rest of a player's advantage should come from knowledge and skill with their character in particular.

And no, I don't like the campy metagame that developed around Brawl, but there are ways to fix that without relying on quick aggressive techniques - weakening defensive options is a great way to start, and that does seem fairly evident in the endlag on air dodges amongst other things.

I'm hoping that Smash4's options and mechanics are strong enough to facilitate a primarily aggressive game, easy enough that the hardest part of the game should be the mental part, distributed enough to give every character a fair (if matchup- and stage-sensitive) chance, and obvious enough for an "average player" to discover without any external help (whether it's shown in a video or just usable by CPU players).
I like PM and it's my most common-played game. The mobility mechanics aren't so much a problem for me as the auto-combos in the game are, or at least the ease in being able to combo them. But yeah, I can agree with you on that one. The lower level in entering into Melee's techniques is nice, while still being there.

I'm also a huge advocate of character uniqueness. That's what made me love Brawl so much was that there were some universal techniques but sometimes there were just some things that only some characters could do. For example, only Sonic had the power to do a spin shot (which is a quick movement out of side b or down b and flicking the c-stick and triggering a quick hop that's great for mobility and crossups) and it's wicked for edgeguards and the like. Mastering a character is great to see.

I can't say that you're really wrong to believe what you do about advanced techniques, just that in my eyes, there's no real meaning behind an "advanced" technique if the skill to use them is easy, or even easier. And the problem really comes from that without these advanced techniques taht come in all the games we've played, we may have closer matches but the better player doesn't feel as accomplished because it still remained closer instead of being destruction. It's discouraging for the less-skilled player, yes, but if we keep at the basics and that's what gives you a roughly equal chance, what sense of triumph is there for the better player?

Whether the techniques are easier or harder, we definitely need them one way or another in order for the scene to thrive. Every fighting game has their own deeper mechanics that we discover and use to better ourselves as players AND as characters, and while the basics are all the same in Smash Bros., it's that level of depth we've gotten in the series that keeps newcomers coming back for more and if they're inspired enough, to keep going and getting better.

I just think that even for the intermediate players there's no harm done in adding some difficulty in using the techniques. If Smash Bros. was already a super-demanding game as is, I'd probably agree with you more. But really, Smash is EASY to get into. Even playing more competitively is a big thing with your mindset and when your mindset changes, the ability to use better techniques to enhance your CHARACTER'S abilities comes into play too. A character's skillsets shouldn't be seperate from the advanced techniques that are universal to the cast, it should compliment them. It's simply up to the development team to balance the game well enough so that the difference between characters isn't too great.

I do agree that the primary part of your game should be the mental part (hence why Brawl feels like a really pure form of it despite the tripping and lack of true 'combos'), but if we lose too much of the advanced aspects of it and/or make it too easy, it eventually could turn into something even more uninteresting.
 

Raijinken

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I like PM and it's my most common-played game. The mobility mechanics aren't so much a problem for me as the auto-combos in the game are, or at least the ease in being able to combo them. But yeah, I can agree with you on that one. The lower level in entering into Melee's techniques is nice, while still being there.

I'm also a huge advocate of character uniqueness. That's what made me love Brawl so much was that there were some universal techniques but sometimes there were just some things that only some characters could do. For example, only Sonic had the power to do a spin shot (which is a quick movement out of side b or down b and flicking the c-stick and triggering a quick hop that's great for mobility and crossups) and it's wicked for edgeguards and the like. Mastering a character is great to see.

I can't say that you're really wrong to believe what you do about advanced techniques, just that in my eyes, there's no real meaning behind an "advanced" technique if the skill to use them is easy, or even easier. And the problem really comes from that without these advanced techniques taht come in all the games we've played, we may have closer matches but the better player doesn't feel as accomplished because it still remained closer instead of being destruction. It's discouraging for the less-skilled player, yes, but if we keep at the basics and that's what gives you a roughly equal chance, what sense of triumph is there for the better player?

Whether the techniques are easier or harder, we definitely need them one way or another in order for the scene to thrive. Every fighting game has their own deeper mechanics that we discover and use to better ourselves as players AND as characters, and while the basics are all the same in Smash Bros., it's that level of depth we've gotten in the series that keeps newcomers coming back for more and if they're inspired enough, to keep going and getting better.

I just think that even for the intermediate players there's no harm done in adding some difficulty in using the techniques. If Smash Bros. was already a super-demanding game as is, I'd probably agree with you more. But really, Smash is EASY to get into. Even playing more competitively is a big thing with your mindset and when your mindset changes, the ability to use better techniques to enhance your CHARACTER'S abilities comes into play too. A character's skillsets shouldn't be seperate from the advanced techniques that are universal to the cast, it should compliment them. It's simply up to the development team to balance the game well enough so that the difference between characters isn't too great.

I do agree that the primary part of your game should be the mental part (hence why Brawl feels like a really pure form of it despite the tripping and lack of true 'combos'), but if we lose too much of the advanced aspects of it and/or make it too easy, it eventually could turn into something even more uninteresting.
I agree with that. Though, at least on the satisfaction level, that's going to vary by player regardless.

I, at least, don't play Smash for technical satisfaction (or many games, for that matter, as I'm rather poor at technical execution on anything besides some old NES platformers) - I prefer to play it to outsmart my opponents, read their moves, and react in the smartest way I know. I like for there to be some degree of satisfaction in the controls, but really, the closest I've had to feeling satisfied at my technical skill in Smash was to survive around 500% in Temple with good teching and positioning (regardless of the "ease" of surviving there, surviving that long felt like a feat to me, especially against my brother who was my only sparring partner for the better part of a decade). At least to me, it seems quite possible to make "advanced" techniques that feel good and get good results without making them difficult for the sake of difficulty. Even if they lose the implications behind "advanced", they're still more complicated than walking or jumping or rolling (to name the obvious "basic" techniques).

Of course, there are plenty of players who do enjoy playing for technical satisfaction. And if that's their cup of tea, well, that's great. But there are also tons of games out there designed specifically with that in mind (or at least with a high degree present), including other entries in the Smash series. While players can hope for their favorite elements of other games to reappear and resurface, well, that's generally not the point of making a new game, that's the point of a remake or update or direct sequel. Like @ DairunCates DairunCates said above, I think the inhibitor shouldn't be the global mechanics, but the character's tricks, that a player can't grasp or master as well.

I think it should be about playing mechanically well but strategically brilliant, rather than mechanically perfect but strategically average. Not that there wasn't room for playing strategically brilliant in the past games, just that it was too hard to play at a competitively acceptable level of "well".
 

DaDavid

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Also, to be honest, I can't think of a single fighting game off the top of my head that has a technique that is as hard to input as wavedashing that is required by every player on virtually every character to be competitive. I certainly can think of some that exist for individual characters, but none that are required by the vast majority of base characters to play.
Very well put. This is why I've always personally felt glad that it was gone in Brawl (though overall I still prefer PM to anything right now.) If it was, as you said, only necessary for some characters to be played at their maximum, then that would be fine. But it really is required of most if not all top tier characters and thus creates a big problem for people trying to break even just slightly into more serious competitive play.
 

Renji64

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I agree with that. Though, at least on the satisfaction level, that's going to vary by player regardless.

I, at least, don't play Smash for technical satisfaction (or many games, for that matter, as I'm rather poor at technical execution on anything besides some old NES platformers) - I prefer to play it to outsmart my opponents, read their moves, and react in the smartest way I know. I like for there to be some degree of satisfaction in the controls, but really, the closest I've had to feeling satisfied at my technical skill in Smash was to survive around 500% in Temple with good teching and positioning (regardless of the "ease" of surviving there, surviving that long felt like a feat to me, especially against my brother who was my only sparring partner for the better part of a decade). At least to me, it seems quite possible to make "advanced" techniques that feel good and get good results without making them difficult for the sake of difficulty. Even if they lose the implications behind "advanced", they're still more complicated than walking or jumping or rolling (to name the obvious "basic" techniques).

Of course, there are plenty of players who do enjoy playing for technical satisfaction. And if that's their cup of tea, well, that's great. But there are also tons of games out there designed specifically with that in mind (or at least with a high degree present), including other entries in the Smash series. While players can hope for their favorite elements of other games to reappear and resurface, well, that's generally not the point of making a new game, that's the point of a remake or update or direct sequel. Like @ DairunCates DairunCates said above, I think the inhibitor shouldn't be the global mechanics, but the character's tricks, that a player can't grasp or master as well.

I think it should be about playing mechanically well but strategically brilliant, rather than mechanically perfect but strategically average. Not that there wasn't room for playing strategically brilliant in the past games, just that it was too hard to play at a competitively acceptable level of "well".
Well fighting games are suppose to have some technicality to them that is what helps makes practice and other stuff so rewarding. I'm all for a more techical game.
 

Raijinken

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Well fighting games are suppose to have some technicality to them that is what helps makes practice and other stuff so rewarding. I'm all for a more techical game.
I agree with adding a level of technicality (as I've made pretty clear). I disagree with the focus being too far towards technicality (there are other games for that).

Oh, and for a more clear reason the technical level should be existent but more lenient than some of the past techniques, the 3DS version's control stick is harder to do precise inputs with in a very short time (though that feeling may vary by player).
 
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Renji64

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I agree with adding a level of technicality (as I've made pretty clear). I disagree with the focus being too far towards technicality (there are other games for that).

Oh, and for a more clear reason the technical level should be existent but more lenient than some of the past techniques, the 3DS version's control stick is harder to do precise inputs with in a very short time (though that feeling may vary by player).
I can agree with that as well fighting games shouldn't take a huge toll on your hand's health.
 
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