Airdodging....should it be tweaked/fixed?

[Nuhuh]

Rather have a defensive game then a braindead one.

And lol at thinking spam is effective.

The spam isn't effective b/c like i said a smart and good player will easily read into it and punish.

 

[Quillion]

Rather have a defensive game then a braindead one.

And lol at thinking spam is effective.

There's a lot more value to a mental game when it doesn't take up the bulk of the gameplay.

 

[Iceweasel]

Airdodging is mostly fine as-is. I feel it could use a little bit more endlag, so that it gives more punish time, but it could also use a reduction in landing lag.

 

[LancerStaff]

There's a lot more value to a mental game when it doesn't take up the bulk of the gameplay.

Kinda has to since Smash is basically all about ****ing tech skillz. Otherwise we'd have nothing.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I feel that air dodging has too great a reward with too little risk. and baiting just doesnt seem to pay off consistently. But I don't know how it could be done better. and melee is not what should brought back to as I hate how it puts into free fall and dumb physics exploit creates wavedashing.

Dumb physics exploit? I dunno. I'm pretty sure they knew what happened when airdodge into the ground when they were programming the game. They just didn't predict it would be used much as a spacing tool or how crazy it could get with platforms.

Melee's airdodge is perfect. Should have never been changed in the first place. Smash 4 would be a lot more fun with the original air dodge mechanic.

 

[Nuhuh]

Dumb physics exploit? I dunno. I'm pretty sure they knew what happened when airdodge into the ground when they were programming the game. They just didn't predict it would be used much as a spacing tool or how crazy it could get with platforms.

Melee's airdodge is perfect. Should have never been changed in the first place. Smash 4 would be a lot more fun with the original air dodge mechanic.

The original air dodge also gave them wave dashing, and i'm almost postitive saukuri didn't want that in any later smash bros game. so that is why we have the air dodging we have now

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

The original air dodge also gave them wave dashing, and i'm almost postitive saukuri didn't want that in any later smash bros game. so that is why we have the air dodging we have now

Pretty much. The new airdodge in brawl + tripping were programmed intentionally out of spite for the competitive smash scene. The goal was to make the game easier and to add RNG to the equation even with items turned off.

Smash 4 removed tripping... but the new ledge mechanic eliminates the edgegame and turns the entire match into a neutral game.

The main problem with Brawl and Smash 4 is the same. They removed techniques intentionally, and did not bother to replace them with new ones.

In melee we saw them fix L cancelling and program it in to cut lag in half not make it zero like in 64... but we also saw all kinds of new stuff, spotdodging, wall techs, wall jumps, airdodge, charged smashes.... sooooo many techniques were added in melee.

Sadly, this is not the case anymore. They see competitive smash as a cancer to their potential revenue out of paranoia that our community will deter casual players from buying the game which is really silly.... Smash always is a best seller.

Removing techs and changing the game is fine... but you have to add in new gameplay mechanics to keep it fresh... not just hack slash and burn away techniques to appease the casual audience.

TLDR : Sakurai likes to remove techniques, doesn't care to add in new ones.

 

[Alondite]

Personally, I don't like air-dodging period. Getting launched is supposed to put the player into a position of disadvantage, and it's too safe with any form of air-dodge. Granted, the entire aerial game would have to be adjusted to accommodate such a change.

Jumping is, and should be a commitment. It's a powerful form of movement that covers two axis, and aerial hitboxes move farther through space; they can be used both while advancing and retreating. Air dodges make it too safe to be in the air.

If there have to be air-dodges, I'd prefer to not be able to air-dodge out of tumble, and for them to be a bit laggier.

 

[Jeronado]

I don't mind air dodges. If I could tweak them though I'd add a bit more endlag to them, enough that it's pretty easy to punish if you mistime it.

 

[Nuhuh]

Pretty much. The new airdodge in brawl + tripping were programmed intentionally out of spite for the competitive smash scene. The goal was to make the game easier and to add RNG to the equation even with items turned off.

Smash 4 removed tripping... but the new ledge mechanic eliminates the edgegame and turns the entire match into a neutral game.

The main problem with Brawl and Smash 4 is the same. They removed techniques intentionally, and did not bother to replace them with new ones.

In melee we saw them fix L cancelling and program it in to cut lag in half not make it zero like in 64... but we also saw all kinds of new stuff, spotdodging, wall techs, wall jumps, airdodge, charged smashes.... sooooo many techniques were added in melee.

Sadly, this is not the case anymore. They see competitive smash as a cancer to their potential revenue out of paranoia that our community will deter casual players from buying the game which is really silly.... Smash always is a best seller.

Removing techs and changing the game is fine... but you have to add in new gameplay mechanics to keep it fresh... not just hack slash and burn away techniques to appease the casual audience.

TLDR : Sakurai likes to remove techniques, doesn't care to add in new ones.

We have new ways to guard the ledge by ledge trumping which can lead to new combos. We have to watch how long we hang out on ledge b/c you can't refresh invinciblity. So ther are new things, just you have to look for them

I don't mind air dodges. If I could tweak them though I'd add a bit more endlag to them, enough that it's pretty easy to punish if you mistime it.

I'd add a bit, but at the same time, as i stated before, you could always read into. Spot dodging on the other hand needs more nerf b/c you can spot dodge for days. Air dodge is almost perfect as it is. Like King 3D you can only get hit on your foot, if yoiua re spaming spot dodge.

Pretty much. The new airdodge in brawl + tripping were programmed intentionally out of spite for the competitive smash scene. The goal was to make the game easier and to add RNG to the equation even with items turned off.

Smash 4 removed tripping... but the new ledge mechanic eliminates the edgegame and turns the entire match into a neutral game.

The main problem with Brawl and Smash 4 is the same. They removed techniques intentionally, and did not bother to replace them with new ones.

In melee we saw them fix L cancelling and program it in to cut lag in half not make it zero like in 64... but we also saw all kinds of new stuff, spotdodging, wall techs, wall jumps, airdodge, charged smashes.... sooooo many techniques were added in melee.

Sadly, this is not the case anymore. They see competitive smash as a cancer to their potential revenue out of paranoia that our community will deter casual players from buying the game which is really silly.... Smash always is a best seller.

Removing techs and changing the game is fine... but you have to add in new gameplay mechanics to keep it fresh... not just hack slash and burn away techniques to appease the casual audience.

TLDR : Sakurai likes to remove techniques, doesn't care to add in new ones.

Smash 4 has a scene b/c it can be competitive, but we needed to tweak our usual rule sets. 4 stocks went to 2 stocks 7min went to 6min. Wave dashing helped approach faster. Since we can't its hard to make the matches flow quickly. Some characters can have quick matches, and it depends on the players. Personally i wish we had at elast 3 stocks. Some characters are able to close 2 stocks pretty quick with no chance at come back.
i myself am a great comeback player, but with 2 stock there is almost no possiblity, some games.

 

[Quillion]

The original air dodge also gave them wave dashing, and i'm almost postitive saukuri didn't want that in any later smash bros game. so that is why we have the air dodging we have now

If he hated wavedashing, why couldn't he just program it to just not slide from airdodging into the ground?

That would have solved a lot of problems without creating any new ones.

 

[Iceweasel]

If he hated wavedashing, why couldn't he just program it to just not slide from airdodging into the ground?

That would have solved a lot of problems without creating any new ones.

True, but it didn't solve the problem that Melee airdodging is terrible for its intended purpose. It prevents you from moving for so long that you're probably going to get hit anyways.

 

[Quillion]

True, but it didn't solve the problem that Melee airdodging is terrible for its intended purpose. It prevents you from moving for so long that you're probably going to get hit anyways.

If you use it right, the opponent would be too out of range to punish you.

The mechanic is well-designed enough that you get enough movement to get you out of trouble as long as you use it right.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you use it right, the opponent would be too out of range to punish you.

The mechanic is well-designed enough that you get enough movement to get you out of trouble as long as you use it right.

The problem being that it's hard to do in a series where everything is supposed to come easy.

 

[SAHunterMech]

The current air-dodge may be spammable, predictable, and punishable, and it may not be unbalanced, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

If I got to choose, I'd want something similar to the Melee Air-Dodge: Multi-Directional, one per airtime.

But I'd want the distance to be a bit farther, and I wouldn't want usage to result in special fall either. I would, however, get rid of the invincibility. Then it would be about two things: The attacker figuring out when the opponent is going to dodge, and what direction the opponent is going to go when they use it.

 

[MapleBeasts]

I don't mind air dodging in this game at all really. It's way more useful than melee's, but not as safe and spammable as air dodging in Brawl. You just have to spot dodging habits by your opponent and bait them for punishes.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

I think it should be a mix of both Melee and Smash 4 (Brawl's was too OP): a great defense to attacks, but only one. Once you've used it, you had this only choice. Now you must take everything by yourself. But no Helpless State, that's too hyperbolic. After the one Air-dodge, you can only attack on the air, and you will have Landing Lag from the Air Dodge.

Beautiful. You sir, deserve a cookie.

 

[Quillion]

The problem being that it's hard to do in a series where everything is supposed to come easy.

Only the inputs are.

It's how you use them that becomes the challenge.

 

[Tito Maas]

I'm for the single air dodge idea, but extending the time between when you can perform them in the air would be fine too.

 

[LancerStaff]

Only the inputs are.

It's how you use them that becomes the challenge.

It's both ineffective in the current game and creates different problems. For example, jumping on platforms in the most effective way possible with it is difficult. It, like wavedashing, replaces a previously simple action with a more complex one. If they added landing lag like what we have now then it would be even more useless, if you simply floated above the ground then landings would be harder to punish.

The game is designed around the current one, and it's only the 1% that want it changed. Not happening.

Edit: Damn squid ate half of my post. <_<

 

[Chaozrush21]

I fine with SSB4's airdodge. I didn't really like Melee airdodge at all, Brawl was way to spammable, and SSB4 is a little bit spammable and needed more ending lag, but otherwise fine. A mix of Melee and SSB4 would be perfect.

 

[Deleted member]

I played Project M before I played Melee, so I didn't know that M's airdodging came from Melee's, and honestly I like it the way it is. I wouldn't mind wavedashing being possible again, but the fact that airdodging makes you helpless in Melee just doesn't really please me.

 

[Lemon Girl]

I think airdodges are fine, if anything I'd tweak its invincibility frames, reducing them from 25 across the board to 20, making it stricter to dodge, and maybe making it come out on frame 5 instead of 4. Just a slight nerf, it always bothered me how "long" invincibility lasts.