Air pressure.

[FreakingMethodiC]

Alright being new to the ZSS forum, i kinda don't wanna read through every post to find this. And i doubt search function will help at all.

I wanted an opinion on how to deal with mass air pressure from certain characters, Ie Wario/Marth.

The new wario style nowadays is literally in the air 80% of the match, as most of his airs lead into his chew attack or a Boost smash or something else. Bascially they're Dancing around you shield (and with a GOOD wario, has the spacing to prevent being mass punished).

Also a really bad things is that Dair from a wario > Eat seems really hard to deal with. Also marth is a pain sometimes when they have really good spacing.

I personally have up to jump off when i play ZSS, i wasn't sure if Out of Shield (OoS) attacks like up-b and U-smash becuase of the poor horizontal radius would work well in most situations.

I thought of two solutions : SH and hitting them before they get you (not very safe, as well as marth has disjointed hitboxes.)

OR dropping shield and Utilting which in the case of wario and his anything > eat combo is not very plausable.

Anyone have any ideas or tips and what's your opinion of the matter?

 

[James Sparrow]

I got ***** by tink's wario a couple tourneys ago. It was violent.

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

I got ***** by tink's wario a couple tourneys ago. It was violent.

Yah, it's a problem i played superryan's wario online. Although lag had a huge factor in it, he was able to do everything fluently ( prolly knew what followed so it wasn't a problem for him.)

I was just able to pick out what i thought would be a problem regardless of the lagg or not. A good wario's pressure is extremely hard to deal with. Was wondering how do deal with it on ZSS.

 

[daemonk]

Stay on the ground and spam up+b? I havn't really played many Warios so I don't know if it will work.

I usually play the distance game and use up+b and for+b when the opponent has good air pressure. And use netrual b stunner on the ground. Against high priority characters like MK, you just gotta spam the stunners.

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

Stay on the ground and spam up+b? I havn't really played many Warios so I don't know if it will work.

I usually play the distance game and use up+b and for+b when the opponent has good air pressure. And use netrual b stunner on the ground. Against high priority characters like MK, you just gotta spam the stunners.

Spamming that slow as stunner is hard when he's dancing around your body. As wellas Up-B'n without up to jump on basicially throws out a move that has no proctection behind it (at least for me i play with Jump off for ZSS only).

And wario is usually in the deadzone or is above the side-B as well as having approaches that prevent him from being wrecked by a Side-B. EX, Boost dashing and im not sure but the bike wheeley seems to work very well.

 

[James Sparrow]

i don't think people who haven't played good warios can even imagine. It's really hard to do anything because warios dair autocancels into anything he wants, and it eats your shield, and it stays out long enough to keep you in your shield. The key is rather than shielding his approach, avoiding it and spacing yourself. If he gets in on you he can easily just dair to eat you.

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

i don't think people who haven't played good warios can even imagine. It's really hard to do anything because warios dair autocancels into anything he wants, and it eats your shield, and it stays out long enough to keep you in your shield. The key is rather than shielding his approach, avoiding it and spacing yourself. If he gets in on you he can easily just dair to eat you.

Which is exactly the problem at hand, warios have a tendency to get inside the dead zone of your spacing move extremely easy. And there doesn't seem a viable way to deal with Dair> eat becuase even if you are good it's most likely going to happen a few times a match.

It's like saying don't get grabed and you get chained blah blah. It's hard to do so when facing competend opponents are who as god or better then you are. But it's true it's going to end up at the point where the ZSS player needs to try and get the wario before he gets them. Becuase shielding one of his air's is free damage for him.

A good amount of movement seems to be required and im going to guess that shielding will most likely be out of the question when that Dair rolls along. This is pretty troublesome see'n how it hurts not having a good OoS attack that can prevent thing. Although i doubt even Bowser or DK's and many others out of shield attacks even work on something like this.


~This is how i feel in ZSS terms:

 

[BoredPeanut]

Really there's not a whole lot you can do against a good Wario. I've played a couple and they were very difficult. All you can really do is hope your dodging and running away skillz are superior. It's a really tough match-up. I could try to find a few more Wario's to play online and see if I could find any decent strategies to employ but otherwise I've not got a lot of advice for ya :/


[And that's a great screenshot by the way lol]

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Lol at above image, hoo, wow, how did you get that look?

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

Really there's not a whole lot you can do against a good Wario. I've played a couple and they were very difficult. All you can really do is hope your dodging and running away skillz are superior. It's a really tough match-up. I could try to find a few more Wario's to play online and see if I could find any decent strategies to employ but otherwise I've not got a lot of advice for ya :/


[And that's a great screenshot by the way lol]

Yeah, was hoping someone from the ZSS boards would have an idea about this matchup and what they do the eliminate air pressure from certain characters that obviously are good in the sky.

Lol at above image, hoo, wow, how did you get that look?

Well first you see... i turned on my wii, used my wii mote to start up brawl, went to brawl, selected Samus, Held R, picked a custom stage, played, hit pause, accidently got it, hit screen shot, transfer'd to computer and posted it here.

Actaully i found it on photobucket.

 

[Eten]

Zamus just has crappy OOS options. Poor up-B for it, poor up-smash for it, and she can't shorthop aerials very well so shorthop aerial OOS is a no, too.

I think we may be looking instead at escaping, not punishing. First say, 1- as Zamus I should not expect to rely attacking out of my shield(or even your rolls). Keeping your distance and using your speed instead.
Second, just some ideas- shield drop to down-b jump(no attack)? Plausible use of the invincibility frames? Full jumping straight out of shield and going somewhere, jumping out of shield and punish something like Wario missing his bite with a dair?

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

Zamus just has crappy OOS options. Poor up-B for it, poor up-smash for it, and she can't shorthop aerials very well so shorthop aerial OOS is a no, too.

I think we may be looking instead at escaping, not punishing. First say, 1- as Zamus I should not expect to rely attacking out of my shield(or even your rolls). Keeping your distance and using your speed instead.
Second, just some ideas- shield drop to down-b jump(no attack)? Plausible use of the invincibility frames? Full jumping straight out of shield and going somewhere, jumping out of shield and punish something like Wario missing his bite with a dair?

Jumping out for wario would miss would work if it wasn't for the fact his Dair>Eat was nearly auto. It's like Dair>shine in melee, one move kept you there while the other tore you to shreds.

And despite being fat, wario moves at a decent pace and boost smashes VERY FAST and with very little warning. He covers ground just as well.

It's never a good strategy to believe you can always advoid something, cause when it catches you... that same problem occurs and you need to find a way out.

 

[ph00tbag]

You could try utilt out of shield. It will come out in about seven frames. I don't know if this is faster than Wario's auto-canceled dair, but it's worth a shot, and if he's already got you sitting in your shield, he'll be doing damage anyway.

Then again, he may just be able to Fsmash and absorb the utilt with super armor. Who knows?

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

You could try utilt out of shield. It will come out in about seven frames. I don't know if this is faster than Wario's auto-canceled dair, but it's worth a shot, and if he's already got you sitting in your shield, he'll be doing damage anyway.

Then again, he may just be able to Fsmash and absorb the utilt with super armor. Who knows?

Yeah, the possiblities without a real test hurts. Who knows how it will turn out.

 

[DarkShadowRage]

Which is exactly the problem at hand, warios have a tendency to get inside the dead zone of your spacing move extremely easy. And there doesn't seem a viable way to deal with Dair> eat becuase even if you are good it's most likely going to happen a few times a match.

It's like saying don't get grabed and you get chained blah blah. It's hard to do so when facing competend opponents are who as god or better then you are. But it's true it's going to end up at the point where the ZSS player needs to try and get the wario before he gets them. Becuase shielding one of his air's is free damage for him.

A good amount of movement seems to be required and im going to guess that shielding will most likely be out of the question when that Dair rolls along. This is pretty troublesome see'n how it hurts not having a good OoS attack that can prevent thing. Although i doubt even Bowser or DK's and many others out of shield attacks even work on something like this.


~This is how i feel in ZSS terms:

OH LAWD MY CHICKINZ where did you get that screeen shot?

 

[DeliciousCake]

Basically, you're gonna have to out-space them with Plasma Whip, or just wait for a good opening.

 

[Eten]

I don't mean this in a bad way, but is there a more standard terminology that can be used about this?

Basically, to me, "Out of shield" or "OoS" literally means a move that can be performed directly out of your shield.
Shield grab... out of shield
You can Upsmash or Up-B out of shield IF and ONLY if you have tap-jump on(I can only name three characters off the top of my head that really need tap-jump on because of this, Link, Samus, and Bowser, they are the only ones who really get that sort of use of up-B out of shield, if you didn't know. I'm sure there may be a few more that I didn't think about, like marth or sumthin).
And finally you can jump out of a shield.(good for things like short hop nair with G&W or Luigi or MK and stuff)

Other things may be good options for retaliating out of shield, because in brawl the line between what works and what doesn't from a shield is blurred with the usual brawl mechanics of how fast a shield can be dropped, the lack of L-canceling aerials and general speed of attacks and shieldstun to prevent such actions from being effective.
Because of this, sometimes people say things like "Jab out of shield" and I think "how?" cause I didn't know you could jab directly out of a shield, but they actually mean "shield drop to jab"

If Wario's autocancelled Dair to Bite/fsmash is so fast that it is like melee unpunishable l-cancelled aerial to shine, I don't think ZSS is going to have a whole lot of options...
If it isn't, here are things to try:
-Completely explore jumping out of shield options. Short hop nair, dair, uair, etc.
-Shield drop to whatever. Utilt, ftilt, jab... everything and anything, ideally with fast startup, or maybe even something with invincibility frames or super armor.


I kinda assumed early on that ZSS has just some really poor options "out of shield", if in fact none at all or maybe even the worst in the game. However it never seemed to be too much of a problem because she's fast and can space well with running pivot grabs, blaster shots, over-B, in the cases things do hit your shield you could simply drop shield and retaliate anyway or even just powershield since it is so easy to do and have absolutely every move an option from that.